440 build up, what do you think?

[73chargercali]

probablyn i will be talking with the local machinist about cost and what he thinks but i want the opinion from you guys/gals first, my combination will probly be using a 1966 block if it checks out. i have 3.55 in the Dana 60 and plan on keeping the same ratio. i want about 10.5 compression ratio for 91 octane, i use racing fuel when at the track.

for heads should i go eddy RPM, VICTOR or Indy SR, or 440-1 how had is it to plumb the oil lines to the Indy heads? i was originally thinking of just the RPM's but if i go stroker will they be enough?

for rotating assembly the 440 source 500CI kit balanced. the piston cc will all depend on the heads i get. this kit is so cheap i planned this build because of the price.

for the block i have a 66' block no overbore, i have access to a Indy mega block but it will take a fat chunk out of my budget.

i want to run a main girdle. 440source has a cool kit includes alum. caps and 1/2" girdle, or Mancini has a couple. what would work best? will an aftermarket 7" deep sump pan still fit without hitting k-mem or center link?

for valve train i was thinking crane cams hydraulic roller #689531 292/298 dur  .528/.539 lift with 3/8" chrome moly push rods, harlandsharp 1.5 rockers with MP alum rocker shaft hold downs.  what stall would i need for this cam? could my rear ratio even utilize this cam? Ron what cam do you suggest?

for the top i was planning on a torker 2 intake and a Holley street avenger 870. i know the torker isn't the best but what do you suggest?

so do i need a windage tray with the girdle and i was thinking of a approx 3000 stall converter.

what do you think? will it work? any cam suggestions? what would machining cost equate to?

this is a street car that when i rebuild the engine will visit the track as often as possible. this build up is to shut down a co-workers camaro with no problem.

thanks guys/gals for any input and sorry the post was so long.

[Purple440]

What's in that Camaro?

Looks like a fun cam..stall looks right.   

Check out englecams.com...those guys are pretty cool and will spend time with you over the phone to get the right cam profile.

[73chargercali]

all i know about the car is that my "friend" use the term loosly, said it has 400-450hp and is a manual trans 1973 camaro with some after market parts. he is probly full of it, but i've been looking for an excuse to rebuild my tired motor.

part of the reason i'm doing the stud girdle is since the motor may see some nitrous if it doesn't satisfy my power goal, or if the camaro beats my time.

what do you think the time frame should be to build the motor? how much vac should i expect with the cam?

[firefighter3931]

First thing to do is have the block sonic checked before throwing any money into machining. The major thrust side is the most critical dimension and you don't want to have a thin walled block after boring. 

My buddy just installed the BCR girdle & aluminum caps on his supercharged 446....i have to say this is one stout setup ! 

The RPM's will work but are a little small for 500 cubes (unless ported)....allthough your's sounds mild (by stroker standards). Next up on the cylinder head foodchain would be a set of Indy ez's with the standard port...which would match up to your torker manifold. The torker 2 is fine on a 500ci build allthough there are better manifolds available....but if you have it....use it.  A 950 cfm carb would be a better choice....something like the proform double pumper.


Cam and converter need to be matched for best performance. That crane grind seems pretty conservative for a big stroker. Roller cams require lots of extra costly parts....bronze distributor gear, electric fuel pump (no mechanical due to the fuel pump pushrod incapatability) and good valvesprings, rockers, pushrods etc....The Harland Sharps are available as a kit with shafts hold downs, spacers and rocker arms....buy the kit and don't waste time trying to piece something together. You need the shafts from HS anyway....they are a special hardened piece specific for their rocker arms.

PTC makes a nice 9.5in converter that is reasonably priced and performs quite well on the street....tight at lower engine speeds and loose when you need it to be. 

The hemi 6qt pan with a windage tray and HV pump would be fine, inmo. The Mildon low profile 7qt pan is also very good but limits ground clearance.

2x3.5in headers/3in exhaust would work good....you could get by with a 17/8in header.

Machining costs can vary by region....you need to make some calls locally for pricing. Are you close to Mopar Engines West ?



Ron

[Hot_Rodder]

Heads, look into the 440SR or the 440-1 kits.... STAY AWAY FROM THE EDY VICTOR SERIES, I'VE HEARD NOTHING BUT BAD STUFF ABOUT THEM, once you buy them, you got to do a lot of machine work, just to get them to fit on the block, and everything to clear (like the pushrods).... Indy isn't the cheapest, and nothing seems to be wrong with the Edy RPM's, but it's your call. My suggestion is look into the 440SR or the 440-1 kits. As for oil pans, try one of these:
1: http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=MIL%2D30930&N=700+4294925232+4294839075+4294840045+4294908110+4294908395+400380+4294840062+115&autoview=sku
2: http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=MIL%2D31460&N=700+4294925232+4294839075+4294840045+4294908110+4294908395+400380+4294840062+115&autoview=sku

That should help get you started. Also, concider calling up Indy and asking them what they would suggest for that kind of a combo.

[Purple440]

Cam and converter need to be matched for best performance. That crane grind seems pretty conservative for a big stroker.

That cam is not far off from mine and I didn't stroke my 440:  230int @.050 and 109 LSA.  Lunati recommends a 2500 stall.  Sounds like you could use more cam for racing this dude.  I didn't see if your running headers but I'm assuming you are.  Your LSA is 112 if I found the right cam.  I think Ron would say 110 LSA or less with headers?

Check out those Lunati Voodo cams.  Maybe this cam would be good? http://www.holley.com/60304.asp

[73chargercali]

thanks everyone for the input
i will probly use TTI headers will they work well with the indy EZ's? do the indy heads have an oil inlet line or do they use a spray bar on the valve cover to oil the valve train? Ron in your opinion what dirrection should i go for cam? i want good power till about 6000rpm and good vac, with little maintance and easy tuning and idle, i know its a hard order but i do want the best of both worlds (thats why i wanted the hydraulic roller). i'm going to have to replace the intake when i do the rebuild but the only other one i've thought about was the indy dual plane.

mopar west is only a few hours away but i've never been.

thanks again guys/gals your the best.

[Hot_Rodder]

TTI has headers, for what seems, for pretty much any Mopar/Mopar setup, and they are the best fit from what I hear, but they come with a price. Cams, Lunati VooDoo design is a little bit differnt style grind, and help to increase vacuum. The other cam to look into would be the Engle, you'll see alot of talk about them here on this site, so, look into those also. I don't know what kind of $$$$ you are looking to spend, but between the Indy's and TTI's, you got some money already tied up there. I can't remember for sure what the oiling setup is on the EZ's, but if memory serves correct,  , it does have the oil feed line that you have to tap into the block. Other than that, I can't remember if it has a spray bar or not. Since you are going with the Indy heads, might as well get there intake too...

[SeattleCharger]

 

[Lurker]

the EZ's use factory shaft oiling

[Hot_Rodder]

    Maybe it was the 440-1 kit I was thinking of . Anyway, that answered the quesiton of the EZ oiling q...

[firefighter3931]

   Maybe it was the 440-1 kit I was thinking of . Anyway, that answered the quesiton of the EZ oiling q...

The Indy SR's, 440-1's and Big EZ's (325cnc) use the external oil lines for shaft oiling. 

The std EZ's  & EZ-1's and Little EZ 295 cnc all use internal oiling.....same as the pic posted above. 



Ron

[Hot_Rodder]

When I had that R/T, I guess the only thing on my mind was bigger.... Everything I was looking at had the external lines, so... Anyhow, the heads that I was going to try and get, quit being made, and to get a set of them is an act of congress.... These are the Bull Dog Track Dog heads... Chryco seemed to like them if I remember right, and he also might have been the one to put me on them, only to find out they had just quit being made b/c the owner supposedly "couldn't get there stuff together" and shut it down.

[firefighter3931]

Hot Rodder ;

My buddy has a set of the bulldogs on his blown 446 and they are nice heads. They are pretty much the same as an Indy EZ in terms of flow/performance. Both of these heads have a stock location exhaust port and raised intake runners.

Std port EZ = Street Dog
Mw port EZ-1= Track Dog



Ron

[SeattleCharger]

Warning:! hijack question.   If getting a 440 rebuild, what internals should be done if aluminum heads are going to be put on in the future?
     I am going to have a steel crank, forged pistions, and an engle K58 cam with the last number changed from 110 degrees to 112 degrees for use of hp exhaust manifolds.  also,: can I use hp exhaust manifolds and this cam with aluminum heads in the future?  I see one member here has a 500 horsepower 440 with hp exhaust manifolds, if I had that I would be happy, looks like he doesn't have aluminum heads either, . . .   but he can't find his build sheet, so I don't know what to get, thanks, Nate

[Hot_Rodder]

Hot Rodder ;

My buddy has a set of the bulldogs on his blown 446 and they are nice heads. They are pretty much the same as an Indy EZ in terms of flow/performance. Both of these heads have a stock location exhaust port and raised intake runners.

Std port EZ = Street Dog
Mw port EZ-1= Track Dog



Ron

Thanks for the info, something to look forward to in the future

[defiance]

Actually sounds a lot like the build I'm doing right now, except I went with a 4.25" stroke.  I just ordered the stroker kit and cap/girdle combo, and the block is at the machine shop waiting for the parts to come in to confirm deck measurements.  I also recommend the BCR kit (which, btw, is the kit 440source sells - though I didn't realize it until I ordered both from seperate sources! ).  I'll post some pics as soon as the parts come in, and more as the build progresses.  Unfortunately it might be a few weeks; the pistons for the 4.25" stroke .030" over -17cc dish kit were back ordered.
I'm still up in the air on heads, though.  I'm kinda torn between ported eddys or unported ez's.  The ported eddies are higher flow than the stock ez's at the lift I'll be seeing, but are slightly more expensive (counting porting) and there's no room to grow... But I really don't think I'll be needing to grow.  The EZ's, though, have a good bit of growth left in them, and would be cheaper.  Of course, by the time I get there, the 440source heads may be out, which may make the decision easier

[Lurker]

Actually sounds a lot like the build I'm doing right now, except I went with a 4.25" stroke.  I just ordered the stroker kit and cap/girdle combo, and the block is at the machine shop waiting for the parts to come in to confirm deck measurements.  I also recommend the BCR kit (which, btw, is the kit 440source sells - though I didn't realize it until I ordered both from seperate sources! ).  I'll post some pics as soon as the parts come in, and more as the build progresses.  Unfortunately it might be a few weeks; the pistons for the 4.25" stroke .030" over -17cc dish kit were back ordered.
I'm still up in the air on heads, though.  I'm kinda torn between ported eddys or unported ez's.  The ported eddies are higher flow than the stock ez's at the lift I'll be seeing, but are slightly more expensive (counting porting) and there's no room to grow... But I really don't think I'll be needing to grow.  The EZ's, though, have a good bit of growth left in them, and would be cheaper.  Of course, by the time I get there, the 440source heads may be out, which may make the decision easier

with the -17cc dish pitons and the EZ's i figured my compression would be 10.8 static and 8.3 dynamic with my cam, if you ran 88 or 84 cc eddy with that dish you would loose a lot of compression. i just recieved my 4.25" -17cc  512 kit from 440 source and i had to wait about 2 weeks for it to ship and they told me it would be a month.



seattlecharger,  one thing i would have the machine shop check to allow for a future swap to aluminum heads is the deck surface for the proper roughness or RA "roughness average" because a lot of MLS head gaskets require a minimum RA for sealing, for example cometics require a 50 RA or better.

[SeattleCharger]

thank you,  the board member with the 500 horsepower 440 is mean 318, here is his sig. pic, see?  stock heads looks like, not sure, and hp exhaust manifolds,   I pm'ed him but unfortunately the build sheet is not found at moment for internal specs.

this is his sig. pic

[firefighter3931]

with the -17cc dish pitons and the EZ's i figured my compression would be 10.8 static and 8.3 dynamic with my cam, if you ran 88 or 84 cc eddy with that dish you would loose a lot of compression. i just recieved my 4.25" -17cc  512 kit from 440 source and i had to wait about 2 weeks for it to ship and they told me it would be a month.

Are you building a tight quench engine ? How far in the hole are those pistons going to be ?

The most efficient pump gas build is a tight quench (zero deck) shortblock with a closed chamber head and a .040 gasket.   

Leaving the pistons too far down the bore deminishes the quench effect an make the engine more detonation prone. A zero deck 4.25 stroke build with a 75cc chamber and 17cc dish is gonna have some high static compression....maybe too much for pump gas unless you go big on the cam to bleed off cylinder pressure. 


I suggest you read up on quench and it's significant impact in the engine building/planning process....especially if pump gas is the intended fuel of choice. 



Ron

[defiance]

Yeah, wasn't thinking last night when I typed that - had a couple of rum & cokes - the eddies 84cc chamber with a 0 deck puts my build at 10.38 or something like that (just a smidge under 10.5).  Since I plan on porting anyway, I may mill them down to 82 or so, just to bump up to 10.5 completely.  To do the same thing with ezs I would either need to have ordered custom pistons or changed to a different stroke altogether with different piston options (though since these are back ordered, maybe I should have! ).  I have waffled back & forth between the two quite a bit for the reasons posted above, though - but I gotta stop waffling now that I've ordered parts!!

[SeattleCharger]

Hi, in MoparCollector'sGuide magazine, there is an ad for heads from AEORHEAD RACING COMPONENTS, for 440 eddy rpm's, then want 1299.00 FOR THE PAIR, assembled, open chamber upgrade 95.00 extra, this seems cheap. 
  specs are:

     eddy rpm aluminum heads
     84 cc combustion chamber with 210cc intake runner
     3 angled valve job   
     2.14 x 1.81 steel valves
     .600" lift valve springs
     umbrella seals
     7 degree locks
     chrome moly retainers
     bronze guides
     chrome moly spring cups

             I don't know that much about heads, are these good?  for this price, I was thinking of getting them now so the rebuild could be done around heads, so it all matches up.     also, curious, could hp exhaust manifolds be used with these?   thanks, Nate

[73chargercali]

nate the eddy rpm heads are a good deal but i wouldn't go for the open chamber since from what i've heard the combustion chamber looses its effectivness. stick with the 84cc and have a machine shop check the valve guides, and you should be good.

so cam wise what should i do is my original plan of the hyr roller a good bet for what i'm looking for or? what lsa should i get? should i go with the harlandsharp 1.5 or 1.6 ratio rockers? what valve springs should i use (beehive, single) last i remember it looked like the beehives were very expensive, would they clear the rockers nicely?

for pistons if i go with the EZ's i'll get the -24cc dish .40 over pistons it would only put me at 10 to 1. the 440 source says the pistons are .018 below the deck. can i deck the block up to this much to bring some compression back?

thanks for the help.
hey defiance good luck on the build and what is the bcr kit? i know its probly obvious but i'm drawing a blank right now.

[defiance]

It's the cap & girdle kit made by BCR products -
http://www.440source.com/girdles.htm or
http://www.bcrproducts.com/caps_and_girdle_system.html

[73chargercali]

oh okay i thought the the BCR was an abreiviation for something i missed. i was looking at the 440 source girdle.
did you have any clearence issues with oil pickup or any other things?