Don't mess with this retired Marine!

[pettyfan43]

 

[Big Lebowski]

So Kim, if you are in the Marine's shoes, and a thug reaches around to your pocket to steal your money in the convience store, what would you do?

Hand it to him so he doesn't strain himself reaching?
Offer him the extra money in your other pocket?
Make him a to go coffee and hand him your business card so maybe you'll have a future client?
Hand him your car keys so he won't have to take the bus?

Let me ask you this, Say the thug reaches in your pockets and pulls out the keys to your Charger intending to ride off to the chop shop. You catch him doing it.  You're telling me you won't do anything about it because it's wrong to defend yourself and your property?

Please, do tell....

  Don't bother, all you'll get is some latin quote along with how we're un-educated simpletons who cannot possibly understand what he's saying.

[pettyfan43]

So Kim, if you are in the Marine's shoes, and a thug reaches around to your pocket to steal your money in the convience store, what would you do?

Hand it to him so he doesn't strain himself reaching?
Offer him the extra money in your other pocket?
Make him a to go coffee and hand him your business card so maybe you'll have a future client?
Hand him your car keys so he won't have to take the bus?

Let me ask you this, Say the thug reaches in your pockets and pulls out the keys to your Charger intending to ride off to the chop shop. You catch him doing it.  You're telling me you won't do anything about it because it's wrong to defend yourself and your property?

Please, do tell....

  Don't bother, all you'll get is some latin quote along with how we're un-educated simpletons who cannot possibly understand what he's saying.

Oh I understand what he's saying, it just pegs the old "Bovine Scatology" meter right off the charts! 

[JR]

I'm just hoping that maybe with a direct question he can tell us the ways of the liberal lawers so next time im attacked or something I can ask myself WWKD? What would Kim do?

I have a feeling that just giving the criminal my testicles is what he'll reccomend.

[Lowprofile]

This should be good....

[bull]

I'm just hoping that maybe with a direct question he can tell us the ways of the liberal lawers so next time im attacked or something I can ask myself WWKD? What would Kim do?

It's easy to understand. All you do is think about the things in life that are scrupulous, fair, righteous, moral and logical and then espouse the opposite in a package that makes it sound like you're all for rights of the little guy. Especially if that little guy acts unscrupulous, unfair, unrighteous, immoral and illogical. That's the sort of "little guy" these scumbucket defense attorneys seek to protect. They don't give a rip about the average law-abiding Joe because he works hard, follows the rules, helps his neighbors, loves his family... those people are of no use to them because they don't line their pockets or make them look cunning. They'll feed you a bunch of horse manure about protecting the rights of you and I but it's really not about protecting anything or anyone. It's about looking good to their peers, sitting around with martinis in hand bragging about how sagacious they were that day in court, how they were able to manipulate the system and most of all, who beat the odds to put the biggest scumbag back into circulation. This kind of scum is the only thing worse than the scum they defend.

[JR]

Just a little bump to top....

I'm not being disrespectful Kim, but I want to hear your opinion here.

[last426]

Just a little bump to top....

I'm not being disrespectful Kim, but I want to hear your opinion here.

Sorry guys, I haven't read this post for several days but it seems you are still reeling over the state of the law.  Now, just what opinion do you want and what latin mumble jumble did I throw out?  Trust me, I have thick skin and never, ever take any sort of posts personally and I don't respond emotionally.  Just don't hate me cause I'm blond, 6'1", have a great job, young girlfriend and a hemi. That's all I ask.  (You can still hate me cause I am a lawyer, as I hate most lawyers).

[Charger1973]

Just a little bump to top....

I'm not being disrespectful Kim, but I want to hear your opinion here.

Sorry guys, I haven't read this post for several days but it seems you are still reeling over the state of the law.  Now, just what opinion do you want and what latin mumble jumble did I throw out?  Trust me, I have thick skin and never, ever take any sort of posts personally and I don't respond emotionally.  Just don't hate me cause I'm blond, 6'1", have a great job, young girlfriend and a hemi. That's all I ask.  (You can still hate me cause I am a lawyer, as I hate most lawyers).

[bull]

Just don't hate me cause I'm blond, 6'1", have a great job, young girlfriend and a hemi. That's all I ask. 

What about that big butt-looking chin of yours? Can I hate you for that?

[JR]

Sorry guys, I haven't read this post for several days but it seems you are still reeling over the state of the law.  Now, just what opinion do you want and what latin mumble jumble did I throw out?  Trust me, I have thick skin and never, ever take any sort of posts personally and I don't respond emotionally.  Just don't hate me cause I'm blond, 6'1", have a great job, young girlfriend and a hemi. That's all I ask.  (You can still hate me cause I am a lawyer, as I hate most lawyers).

I don't think anyone here hates you. Strongly disagrees with you though, most definatley.

You didn't awnser my question. And if you're saying that we shouldn't do like the retired marine and defend ourselves when attacked or robbed, then what should we do? If you critisize the man for acting in self defense and protecting the money he gets from a fixed income, as opposed to letting the theif take it to buy crack, then here is your chance to be heard and tell us how to handle the situation.

It doesn't matter to any of us what kind of work you do, what you own, or what your hair color is. You pretty much went out and slapped in the face of everything honest hardworking Americans believe. Saying that your glad the crook could sue for more than the 300 bucks was appaling.
I'm sure most of us here work hard for what we have, and feel we have every right to live our lives without the threat of loosing everything we have to a dirtbag theif that won't work but will steal to feed their drug habit.

I'd like a straight awnser. What would you do in that situation?

[Big Lebowski]

  Speaking of mumbo jumbo...Today Mo. past a law that "You can defend yourself act" So "now" you can "legally" blow that intruder away.  Hurray!!!   

[last426]

Just don't hate me cause I'm blond, 6'1", have a great job, young girlfriend and a hemi. That's all I ask. 

What about that big butt-looking chin of yours? Can I hate you for that?

Big butt ugly belly, that's more like it.  I'll never forget the time this gal complimented me on the dimple in my chin.  I went home and told my roommate that she had complimented my chin and he said "which one."  Now that guy was funny.

As to what I would do if I caught someone about to pick pocket me, I would grab his hand and stop him. I don't think I would call the cops as that is not my style.  I would just think the guy was a total loser.  If I beat up every pitiful loser I run into, I would have to become a professional boxer.

As to JR asking "And if you're saying that we shouldn't do like the retired marine and defend ourselves when attacked or robbed, then what should we do?"   What I recommend is to do what is doing whatever is likely to cause you the least harm without escallating the situation. If attacked, meet force with force but don't escallate. If robbed, it is often best to give the robber the goods and take your revenge later.   As to the Marine, I think he overreacted.  It feels good when someone gets their comeuppance, but society can't run that way.

But be honest, it is because I am a blond.  I have been fighting this prejudice all my life and it is sad to see it rear it's ugly head once again.  Kim

[pettyfan43]

What does being blond have to do with it? 

Seriously though, The guy who stole the money had no right putting his hand in the Marine's pocket. If he had just grabbed the guy's hand and not done anything, THAT may have led the loser to escalate the situation, but as it turned out, the Marine ended the situation and stopped the loser. Simply put, most likely the pickpocket loser learned one very valuable lesson. Find another hobby! Get a job! Had the Marine NOT taken action, the pickpocket most likely would have stolen from someone else, maybe several someone elses that couldn't defend themselves.

I still think the pickpocket picked on the old man because he THOUGHT he was an easy mark! And I think he learned one VERY important lesson! Maybe it taught the thug NOT to do something so stupid.

I have to disagree with you last 426, there are situations where you HAVE to stop a problem where it starts.

I just think the Marine did what he had to do and I think the pickpocket needs to spend some serious time doing community service and making up for what he did.
The punk got his @$$ handed to him, and he may just think next time he decides to pick on an old man messing with a scratchoff!

Just my 

[last426]

I have to disagree with you last 426, there are situations where you HAVE to stop a problem where it starts.

But we aren't disagreeing on that point.  Where we are disagreeing is that once you decide to take illegal action, man up and be responsible for the action.  People who are stomping their feet and saying how correct the Marine was are going counter to the law.  Perhaps you should change the law but, as I have said, you aren't generally allowed to use physical force to stop a property crime.  Now this does not discount the possibility that a creative DA might argue that the Marine was in fear for his life, in which case my opinion would differ. It's been fun but it is kind of boring if no one comes up with some other law to argue and, instead, relies on their opinions of what the law should be.  That is not my argument.   Kim

[dkn1997]

  ........It feels good when someone gets their comeuppance, but society can't run that way.......

I just have to address this one point.  Maybe it cannot run that way with the way people are today, but Seems like society was  better off when it did run that way.  Deep down we are all animals, the lowlife criminals more so than us "mainstream" folks.  For them, a smack in the head is the only form of effective correction.  We can all sit here and talk about how they got that way, but the fact is that they are that way and this is the only language they speak. 

Kim, I have polked some fun at you here, but I have to say I respect the way you come on this thread and take the abuse.  Do I think you are totally wrong?  not totally, but mostly..but you come on here and take it on the chin so that's cool.   

maybe I am a simpleton, but I have got my own crosses to bear in life without worrying about saving the criminals rights, or anyone else's for that matter.  For most of us, just living life is enough of a chore and if someone gets in the way, they get stomped. 

[Big Lebowski]

Some things people need to actually experience before they can change there own mind. Of course it's too bad one has to have a gun pointed at the back of his or her head to actually change ones view of self protection. I wouldn't even wish that on my enemy, I just put up with those who don't understand.

[pettyfan43]

last 426 said "......as I have said, you aren't generally allowed to use physical force to stop a property crime."

That is where the disagreement really comes from. And I think that is where our difference of opinion comes into play. It is bad enough that he stole from the guy. BUT when he stuck his hand in the guy's pocket, that moves it in my eyes from a simple property crime, to an assault, after all, you have NO CLUE what this turkey is up to once he sticks his hand in your pocket.  And a person has a right to protect themselves and their property.
Cleaning the chump's clock is just a nice benefit, odds are that wasn't the thief's first rodeo, and to be blunt, a good solid @$$ whipping may have done the guy some good.
If some idiot gets the guy off, and some sorry, panty waisted judge lets this idiot go, he will be right back out there stealing from other people. He might think twice about it with getting his butt handed to him and getting some jail time.

Normal, law abiding citizens have been taking it on the chin from a system that cares more about criminal's rights than the victims they take from and hurt. SOMEBODY has to take a stand. Some putz sticks his hand in my pocket is gonna get a good mouthful of ground. I'm gonna make sure he's right where the police can find him. He ain't gonna have much fight in him afterward.

It's just a difference of opinion about what should have been done, to be blunt about it, if I had the chance I'd buy the Marine a beer and I'd kick the lowlife thief in the nads one good time! 

[Guns N Rotors]

, if I had the chance I'd buy the Marine a beer and I'd kick the lowlife thief in the nads one good time! 

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/tm_headline=i-kicked-burning-terrorist-so-hard-in-balls-that-i-tore-a-tendon-in-my-foot--&method=full&objectid=19401382&siteid=66633-name_page.html

4 July 2007
HERO CABBIE: I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON
HERO CABBIE..
By Karen Bale
A HERO cabbie who took on the Glasgow Airport terror suspects told yesterday how he booted one of them in the privates.

Alex McIlveen, 45, kicked the man, whose body was in flames, so hard that he tore a tendon in his foot.

But he said last night: "He didn't even flinch. I couldn't believe he didn't go down.

"A doctor told me later I'd damaged a tendon in my foot."

The burned suspect was named last night as Khalid Ahmed, a Lebanese doctor.

He is critically ill with burns at the Royal Alexandra Hospital in Paisley, where he is believed to have worked.

[JR]

As to what I would do if I caught someone about to pick pocket me, I would grab his hand and stop him. I don't think I would call the cops as that is not my style.  I would just think the guy was a total loser.  If I beat up every pitiful loser I run into, I would have to become a professional boxer.

As to JR asking "And if you're saying that we shouldn't do like the retired marine and defend ourselves when attacked or robbed, then what should we do?"   What I recommend is to do what is doing whatever is likely to cause you the least harm without escallating the situation. If attacked, meet force with force but don't escallate. If robbed, it is often best to give the robber the goods and take your revenge later.   As to the Marine, I think he overreacted.  It feels good when someone gets their comeuppance, but society can't run that way.

But be honest, it is because I am a blond.  I have been fighting this prejudice all my life and it is sad to see it rear it's ugly head once again.  Kim

Why do you keep bringing up your hair? Were all sitting behind a computer screen here, and most of us have never seen you. That last line is a bit of "I'm the victim, everybody hates me" mentality. If it bothers you this bad at your work then Just For Men can fix that for you.

So if you catch someone with their hand in your pocket, you'll just grab his hand and say no, and he'll just say "My Bad" and walk off and you two can laugh and recall all the good times you two had later?
If he'll try to pick pocket you then there's no telling what elese he'll do. He could be a desperate druggie ready to do anything for his next fix. Or he could be afraid of any contact and run away. Personally I wouldn't want to make that assumption. The marine ended the problem before it was any risk to his life. You know that if he hadn't of done anything, or said "Please don't", that theif would be right back out there looking for even easier targets.

But we aren't disagreeing on that point. Where we are disagreeing is that once you decide to take illegal action, man up and be responsible for the action.

I'll agree with you here. I would gladly stand up in court and say I defended myself after the theif attempeted to pick pocket, or assualt me. If any jury in this country would convict the Marine of anything, then there would be no justice in the world.

I apologize if that's hard to read, I couldn't figure out how to quote 3 different lines. 

[hemigeno]

It's been fun but it is kind of boring if no one comes up with some other law to argue and, instead, relies on their opinions of what the law should be. 

Alrighty then...

Earlier in the discussion you equated this crime to petty shoplifting.  According to Section 357 of the Michigan Penal Code, the pickpocket's attempted crime would be considered a felony:

357.  Larceny from the person—Any person who shall commit the offense of larceny by stealing from the person of another shall be guilty of a felony, punishable by imprisonment in the state prison not more than 10 years

Michigan apparently takes stealing (no $ threshhold with this particular Section) off another person's body pretty seriously if they're gonna give him 10 years in prison.  It's certainly not the same as misdemeanor shoplifting, that's for sure.

The prosecutor would probably be asked to consider Mr. Barnes' actions (self-defense?) in light of this Michigan Statute:

780.972.(2)  An individual who has not or is not engaged in the commission of a crime at the time he or she uses force other than deadly force may use force other than deadly force against another individual anywhere he or she has the legal right to be with no duty to retreat if he or she honestly and reasonably believes that the use of that force is necessary to defend himself or herself or another individual from the imminent unlawful use of force by another individual.

Hard to say if that standard is met or not, but IMHO it would be political suicide to bring up criminal charges against an Ex-Marine under circumstances like this, and most of those guys like their jobs so criminal charges might be unlikely.

That still doesn't preclude the perp from filing civil charges for Assault/Battery against Mr. Barnes, which might be something a civil attorney with nothing to lose might try on a contingency basis -- but such a lawsuit might be an uphill battle if Mr. Barnes can assert self-defense.  It'd take a pretty calloused set of jurors to reward a thief, but I suppose stranger things have happened.

BTW, I also checked with California's statutes just for grins, and the perp probably would have committed the "California crime" of Grand Theft with circumstance(s) in aggravation according to Sections 484.(a), 487.(c) and 502.9.  Again, a far cry from petty larceny/shoplifting...

I guess my main point is that the correlation you drew earlier between different types of crimes is not truly applicable - at least in my opinion.  Plus, Michigan considers what the perp did to be a pretty serious crime and Mr. Barnes' acts in self-defense probably fall into a gray area both from a civil and criminal perspective. 

Mr. Barnes remains a hero in my book. 

[472 R/T SE]

I glanced thru the threads and didn't see the beatdown.  I found this.

http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=3328628

[pettyfan43]

MAN you watch the video, the questions go out the window, CLEARLY the Marine was defending himself and was in the right!

[last426]

That still doesn't preclude the perp from filing civil charges for Assault/Battery against Mr. Barnes, which might be something a civil attorney with nothing to lose might try on a contingency basis -- but such a lawsuit might be an uphill battle if Mr. Barnes can assert self-defense.  It'd take a pretty calloused set of jurors to reward a thief, but I suppose stranger things have happened.

What you quoted above was the gist of my comment (as I recall cause I have not revisited this post).  And please remember that jurors do NOT rule on the law -- they rule on the facts alone.  For instance, they will decide whether the Marine actually hit the victim, not whether it was legally correct for him to do so. To be fair, they will decide whether it was reasonable for the Marine to beat up the victim, not whether it was legally correct.  But it appears that state by state one can use reasonable forse to resist a property crime.  Unfortunately, the Marine, in my opinion, used excessive force.  Time will tell (and thanks for doing the legal research instead of just reacting emotionally).  Kim

[Mike DC]

   
The video was also pretty funny.