Starting trouble

[EffinDuff]

I have a stock '77 400 that we just put a engle cam and msd 8386 dist into and now we are having problems firing the motor.  We had the motor stumbling but then i think we just flooded the plugs and thats all she wrote.  I figured while i was letting the brain rest and plugs dry out I would do some research.  I am looking to cut some corners and find out what my timing should be and how this dist should be set up.  Where should my initial and total timing be at for this cam?  What springs should I use in the Dist (I was thinking 2 light blue)? What Advance Stop Bushing should I be using?  And why can't this crap just work out of the box haha. 

I also put new plugs in as well.  They are the NGK XR-5s if that helps at all.

The Engle cam has the following specs:

Grind Number: K-54H
Valve Lift: 470
Running Duration: 270
Valve Lash: HYD
Gross Cam Lift: 314
Duration @ .050: 214
Lobe Centers: 112
Intake Opens: -2
Exhaust Closes: -8
Intake Closes: 36
Exhaust Opens: 42

[Lurker]

if i had to guess i would say that if it is stumbling and not backfiring through the carb etc your timing is retarded to much, firing to late in the rotation

[EffinDuff]

Well that started to be the case.  Then the motor stopped firing all together so the focus hit the new dist.  And thats where i gummed up the works haha.  Long story short I am positive that i flooded the motor from messing around so much.  So i decided to make sure i had the dist back at TDC and not 180 out and went inside before i screwed anything up.  Out of curiosity which way would i need to spin the dist body to correct that?  For instance does a clockwise spin cause it to fire later or earlier?  I have just enough understanding of timing to get me into trouble.   

[Lurker]

i think the rotation is counterclockwise (i am 200 miles from any vehicle atm in a helicopter acces only camp lol ) so if you turned it clockwise it would be advancing it, just pop the cap and tap the starter and watch which way it spins and if you turn it the same direction as it spins you are retarding it.

[EffinDuff]

For the life of me i can not get this car to start.  Put the old mopar ign in and still nothing.  The motor spits gas out of the carb.  Could the problem be this cam?  Also i have heard alot about dialing the cam in.  How is this done?  If the cam and timing gear have notches in it doesnt it just fit in one way?  When i installed the cam i lined the two dots on the cam and crank gears as shown while the car at was TDC.  I also believe the dist rotor is in the right position as well because on the compression stroke of cylinder 1 the rotor points to 1.  I have tested the spark by pulling a plug to see if she arcs with both the mopar and msd ignition.  The car stumples maybe 1 or 2 cylinders but nothing.  Please help I am out of ideas! 

[firefighter3931]

If the plugs are gas fouled then it's time to replace them. If you're at tdc and following the correct firing order (1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2 counterclockwise) and getting fuel then it should start. You said you checked for spark....is it blue or dull orange ?

Did you check the float levels on the carb to make sure it's not flooding ?



Ron

[EffinDuff]

we changed the plugs from the xr5 to a set of accel plugs.  Its more of an orange or white spark with both ignitions i am pretty sure the msd was lighter.  Yea that is the firing order i am using.  I am going to check the carb next.  Oh and the msd dist was hitting against the head and i didnt realize but caused a nice size gouge in the side of the msd dist.

[EffinDuff]

Actually come to think of it I am going to pull the carb off the mustang I have and try that.  It's a holley 750 double pumper which hopefully should do the trick.  I am worried about ripping the eddy 650 apart because i dont have the seals and want to get it running.    And come to think of it i do remember smelling a tinge of varnish but paid no mind to it so the floats may be stuck open and pouring gas down the chute.

[firefighter3931]

Try the holley carb....it's allways good to troubleshoot using "known" good working parts....which helps eliminate possibilities and isolate the problem. 

Fwiw, a dull orange spark usually means the ignition system is weak....bright blue is what you should be seeing 



Ron

[EffinDuff]

Ok here is the update.  For starters i should change my name to rookie and take up another hobby   .  So far i have tried 2 msd blaster coils, an msd ignition, mopar ignition, eddy 650, holley 750 vacuum secondary (i lied its not a DP).  I am definately getting fuel to the carb.  I have tested the spark and made sure we are in TDC.  The first crank of the motor stumbles like it almost wants to do something, but there is something strange about the stumble.  It is not a very strong stumble just seems like it is tripping over itself.  I feel like i should be getting some popping and possibly some backfire out of the carb... something at least.  After the first crank the motor does a whole lot of nothing.  I am almost thinking the dist gear or the cam may be off.  Visually everything seems to be fine though.  Any ideas?  Even if they were off i should be getting a detonation or a backfire or something correct?  Also out of curiosity with this cam they sent new lifters, is it ok that i used the stock push rods?  They had very little wear as it seemed like the motor was rebuilt recently.  Although i dont know how good of a rebuild it was as the motor sounded very tired prior to us working on it.

Sorry for the 1000 questions i am just at a loss with this problem.  Thanks for all of your help.

[firefighter3931]

Get a helper and have him/her turn the engine over from inside the car. Have them pump up the pedal and make sure you're getting some fuel into the venturies. While the engine is cranking....slowly move the distributor around and it should fire.

Keep at it !


Ron

[EffinDuff]

I have been doing that for 2 days now and have also set up a remote starter so i can pump the gas from the carb (and the ignition is on when i am doing that).  Even with starter fluid the car does not make much of an effort.  I am going to do some compression tests tomorrow to see if i can find anything.  Around what numbers should i be seeing for a 77 400?

[firefighter3931]

  Around what numbers should i be seeing for a 77 400?

Those later 400's are pretty low on static compression numbers (7.8-8.2:1) so the number won't be too high....probably in the 120 psi range or so.



Ron

[chargerman68]

at least im not the only one...i have the same problems with my motor still no fire

[EffinDuff]

haha i have been reading your thread hoping you would figure it out so i can cheat and get mine running.  You were getting some backfire though werent you?  if so one step ahead of me.  I have literally changed everything just shy of cracking it open again to check the chain and crank/cam position.  last time i checked gas + spark = boom but i guess not for this motor    Best of luck with yours.

[chargerman68]

thinks i tried so hard today i think i fried my starter,it just clicks and sparks 

[EffinDuff]

one thing then another.... after all of the cranking i'm doing to try and get this motor started i'm gunna wear all the lobe off the new cam i just put in.  Once it starts that will fail then step one again lol.

[chargerman68]

hope u have better luck...

[EffinDuff]

you too... we'll have a race, but instead of 1/4 mile well see who can start first haha.  loser is buying 

[chargerman68]

check

[Purple440]

  make sure to post the race video's

This same thing happened to me this spring after it had been sitting for 6 months.  I also flooded the crap out of my motor (440) trying to start it.  Anyway, it turned out that the distributor cap and plug wires were almost all corroded so I replaced the cap and put new contacts on the wires and I was good to go.  Spark from the MSD box was good (purple/blue ish color).  It was spitting gas, trying to fire initially, then nothing as I kept cranking it.  Sounds almost identical to your problem.

G/L guys

[EffinDuff]

Could the clean edges of the pistons be a sign of blowby?  I always seem to remember the carbon to cover the whole piston somewhat evenly.  I ask because i dont think this was a good rebuild job by the machine shop or the hack that had the car before me.  Any ideas?

[Steve P.]

Are you sure you didn't place the distributor 180* out??

[EffinDuff]

I am pretty sure i am not 180 out.  If i was 180 out the car would at least be backfiring out of the carb.  Hopefully i will have time to run the compression tests right and maybe that will give me some more info.  Thanks

[OttawaCharger]

 

[chargerman68]

 

good luck at a dead end till i get  a new starter

[EffinDuff]

ok i am getting no more than 30 pounds out of any cylinder.  i did the test wet and dry w/ all plugs out and throttle wide open.  Every once in a blue moon the pressure would pump past 30 but not often.  Out of curiosity i pumped compressed air into a cylinder during its compression stroke.  The air was moving pretty good out of the valve covers.  I think he put the wrong sized rings in or something of that nature so i am getting a nasty blowby.  I believe that is what would cause the clean spot on the pistons.  If this sounds wrong please let me know.  Thanks guys.     

[Steve P.]

It is NOT going to run on 30 PSI. Are you sure you have the comp. tester in tight?? Turn it over 3 full turns. The 3rd time up is the reading you want to use..

[EffinDuff]

Yea I figured 30 psi was not enough lol...  And yea i am using the tester right i even verified the guage was working right on a mustang i have.  I can crank the motor 10 times and still no more than 30ish.  When I pump the air in during a compression stroke you can hear the air bubble through the oil passages and into the valve cover.