i hope dodge wont go hybrid!

[HEMIMAN 94]

i think dodge should never go hybrid because if they do then the engines will be more of a BABY engine than what they got now plus what about if dodge went so in to hybrids that they loose money because people might not buy them so they will loose money which equals no more dodge

[Troy]

Uh, well, I don't know how to respond to that.

Most people who want basic transportation want "cheap" - not "powerful" - and hybrids are neither. However, as the technology advances then things will change. What will Dodge do when everyone else is making hybrids that are more powerful than their regular engines and they can't compete? It would be foolish for any company not to investigate new technology. With gas prices where they are, alternative fuel vehicles are bound to become more common.

Dodge can screw it up whether they go with hybrids or not and they're already losing money. It can't hurt to try other directions.

Troy

[jasonfromIKILLYA]

uh yeah.  well, unfortunately, times they change....

[Shakey]

i think dodge should never go hybrid because if they do then the engines will be more of a BABY engine than what they got now plus what about if dodge went so in to hybrids that they loose money because people might not buy them so they will loose money which equals no more dodge

Maybe you should put that in a letter to Chrysler.  I'm sure they'll agree.  Hell, they may even offer you a position on the board of directors.   

[miamivice]

wow such a compelling argument you have there

[Charger1973]

wow such a compelling argument you have there

  Im convinced.   

[Dodge Don]

And thus, we gain a better understanding on some of the reasons the "domestic" manufacturers are having their you know whats handed to them.

[pettyfan43]

Whether EVERYTHING goes hybrid is one thing but you can bet there WILL be some Dodges with Hybrid drivelines in them. It IS coming with ALL of the manufacturers, they can't afford NOT to.

[Chatt69chgr]

I saw a program on tv the other day that was really interesting.  The hosts visited Gale Bank Engineering and talked to him about internal combustion engines.  He convinced me that the way of the future is twin-turbocharged 4-cylinder diesel engines.  He explained that the power potential of a gas engine is ultimately limited by the octane rating of the gasoline.  A diesel doesn't care about octane rating so knock is eliminated as a factor.  And turbocharging is the way to make power with them.  He believes that hot rodders will eventually all be running twin-turbocharged diesels.  Hybrid gas-electric (ie, battery) arrangements will never be economical until they come up with a better battery than what's out there now. 

[Ghoste]

CAFE standards being what they are and all, for every 6.2 SRT they sell they likely need to move 5 hybrids (or similar mileage vehicle) to keep the average in line.

[Khyron]

i think dodge should never go hybrid because if they do then the engines will be more of a BABY engine than what they got now plus what about if dodge went so in to hybrids that they loose money because people might not buy them so they will loose money which equals no more dodge

located in the lower right hand corner of your keyboard is a helpfull key, it contains a funny little dot.


looks kinda like a .

[Brock Samson]

well he did manage to git a exclaimation point in the header...
  :scratchchin:i suspect '94 was the DOB..

the first post:

"hey thats awsome bull run is awsome i was hoping you would win but you didnt you should have becuase you never talked slack you deserved to win the thing the trans am should have lost not won your charger is awsome realy cool"


welcome to the site HEMIMAN 

[moparguy01]

News flash, Dodge has already dabbled in hybrid cars in the 90's. But they ran into the exact same problems every other hybrid car manufacturer has found. the batteries just dont last that long. They have to be replaced every 5-6 years, and I know in the case of the Honda Insight, the attery sets cost damn near as much as the car.

BTW Dodges example was the Intrepid ESX. I think they did something with a caravan as well, but they found that it wasnt financially feasible at the time.

on another note. Please work on making your sentences coherant. Your posts really make my head hurt.

[Magnum Matt]

Yeah, Dodge is DOOMED if they start making hybrid cars!  I mean look at Toyota's sales for the past few years when they started making them.  They lost tons of money...  Wait a minute...  Aren't they number 1 in the market right now?  But Dodge shouldn't go hybrid.  They might make more money...  And you can't say that hybrid's are baby engines.  They have a new hybrid sports car that is about to be released that has over 400 HP!!!  And on top of that, Bush just passed a bill that requires all engines to be of a hybrid standard by 2020 if im not mistaken.

[Troy]

I found a cool article on hybrids earlier but decided not to post. One point they made is that the Hybrid Durango will be here soon so it's too late...

FYI - the one of the next gen Toyota hybrids (Volta) goes 0-60 in 4 seconds. It *only* gets 31 mpg though so the real save-the-world types will snub it.

Troy

[Ghoste]

   Hmmm, is there a link?

[Troy]

Original article:
http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center-article_130/

Toyota Volta - 3.3L V6 with an electric motor on each axle, 408 hp, 435 miles on 13.7 gallons. The gasoline engine part of it already exists so the major change is adding the electrics.
http://www.toyota.com/vehicles/future/volta.html
http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/frame.php?file=car.php&carnum=1958

Another concept with the same drive train in a different body - although this one is reported to be the next Supra due out soon(?):
http://www.toyota.com/vehicles/future/fths.html

If you're saying "yeah, but how close is the technology?" - the Lexus GS 450h is in production *now*:
http://www.hybridcars.com/compacts-sedans/lexus-gs-450h-overview.html
That's 4,100 pounds, 339 hp, 0-60 in 5.2 seconds, 22-28 mpg, Super Ultra-Low Emissions Vehicle (SULEV) and seats five.

The Volkswagen Chameleon is the ultimate retro-styled "green" vehicle but it will never see production.

Troy

[Ghoste]

That's a looong way from a Prius.

[Troy]

Updated my post. Yes, it's like a Prius on steroids with an Italian suit.

Troy

[Ghoste]

This is the part where the old Bob Dylan music comes up isn't it?

[Troy]

Who?

Troy

[Todd Wilson]

I am looking forward to Dodge making a Hybrid car. With the price of gas all the makers need to keep coming up with new and better ways to get MPG. As technology gets better and the costs and battery problems go away you can bet there will be more. As for "baby" motors theres several 4-6 cylinder engines that run really good. And when its time to go to work or run errands who cares.  I need cheap transportation for those duties so I can have gas money to spend on my toys.


Todd

[bull]

I just hope Dodge won't go bye-bye.

[Ghoste]

You're right Bull, I'm more worried about their ownership issues than hybrid cars.

[Charger1973]

I said id never buy another "new" car again but if they can offer me some serious MPG I would consider it.  It would save money in the long run.  Id rather have that extra money in my pocket for the nice days when I take my Charger out.  I drove my 79 Blazer today and at 6 mpg average, its getting a little expensive. 

[bull]

I'm not convinced that hybrid technology is going to amount to much. Maybe somewhere down the road it will because the car companies seem hellbent on making it work but right now I think straight electric cars are a better bet in the future. The problem with electricity is while it is clean and eliminates much of our dependence on oil the process of generating electricity is not so good in many areas. Here in Oregon we've had dams for years and now they're going nuts putting up windmills in the Columbia Gorge but in many places they burn a lot of coal which doesn't really get us anywhere from the tree-hugger standpoint.

My cousin has a Prius and a co-worker has a Yarus and in practical numbers the Prius only gets about 4 mpg better on the highway. I know 4 mpg is 4 mpg but I don't think the mpg difference warrants the sticker price difference. IIRC the Prius is like $8k more.

[2Gunz]

I hope they DO make alternate fuel cars and do it well.

Times are changing and I would rather have a green Dodge over a dead Dodge.

Lets face it, if it done right somebody could make a fortune in car with amazing gas mileage.

[Ghoste]

Bull you are absolutely right about the tree huggers, that's my problem with a lot of this.  The general public sees the evil car drive by and knows it must be bad to burn all that fuel so we need to get rid of them.  It's an easy target so the politicians jump all over cars while everybody plugs their clean extension cord into the wall and life is perfect.  The real tree huggers know that hybrid cars are just a slightly less evil version of the car.
I'm all for Dodge building them if it gets the public and politicians to ignore the Vipers and SRT club (which it probably won't), plus it lets them keep Toyota from dominating California markets too much.  If they sell.

[no318]

The problem with Hybrids in general is they are not enough more efficient to "pay off" when considering the extra initial cost & maintainance vs. the fuel savings.  I was at a training class on them recently and we pencilled out a new Hybrid Prius vs. a non-Hybrid Yarus.  Figuring 15k miles per year @ $2.50 gas ( as I recall that it what we used), to regain the initial $4K hybrid "option" took 16-17 YEARS, NOT figuring any additional maintainance (ie $400-$600 in batteries every 3-5 years).  REALIZE that these cars are NO different @ highway speeds and use the hybrid elec. assist in city driving ONLY.  On the highway they use the regular internal combustion engine.  I don't know very many that drive over 15k/year in city traffic only.  Also, I recently read an article in Automotive News that said the EPA was going to use a "different" method to calculate est. MPG on Hybrids that was to be more "accurate" and would probably LOWER there ratings.  This makes the difference between them smaller and take longer to pay out.

The problem with elec. is that the electricity still needs to be generated somewhere.  It is easy to think that electricity is "free energy".  We need to take into account the amount of energy it takes to convert other energy into electricity.

I think something needs to change, but I don't think that Hybrid is feasible, atleast not yet. 

Variable displacement (like Hemis have), variable valve timing, PRECISE air/fuel control, higher overdrive ratios, lighter materials, and (I hate to say it) driver habits, all play a part. 

Just my 2 cents worth

[Chargerfanatic]

In my opinion Dodge needs to do something. Our next car is going to be a rolling gas can, and I don't see Mopar getting close to the MPG that the imports get for the price of the vehicle. For me it is a transportation vehicle. If I want power, I have my 71 Charger. Me buying a car that gets 50 mpg is just my little way of "sticking it to the man".

[Todd Wilson]

In my opinion Dodge needs to do something. Our next car is going to be a rolling gas can, and I don't see Mopar getting close to the MPG that the imports get for the price of the vehicle. For me it is a transportation vehicle. If I want power, I have my 71 Charger. Me buying a car that gets 50 mpg is just my little way of "sticking it to the man".

You should look at the stickers on the new vehicles. There are plenty fo Dodges new cars getting the MPG that the others are getting and they are most of the time less priced vehicles.


Todd

[Ghoste]

   We've been looking at new cars too and just like the public perception of hybrids saving the planet (I'm still all for Dodge building them) there is also a perception that the imports all get better mileage.  From what we saw on the window stickers there are a lot of comparable models when it comes to fuel use. 

[no318]

  We've been looking at new cars too and just like the public perception of hybrids saving the planet (I'm still all for Dodge building them) there is also a perception that the imports all get better mileage.  From what we saw on the window stickers there are a lot of comparable models when it comes to fuel use. 

EXACTLY!  Why is that?  Just marketing? 

[Ghoste]

Some of it is marketing, some of it is just blind luck.  The Asian carmakers produced complete utter crap when they first came to this market.  The first oil embargo caught North America by surprise and the domestics had nothing to offer and the mass exodus to small cars filled the Japanese car mfgs with the cash needed to move their small cars light years ahead.  The American arrogance carried on to the point that they were in a difficult position to recover from.  The court of public opinion is still against American cars to this day.  They all build great stuff and they all build turds.
I'd like to slam the car magazines and news media car "experts" too but thats a cheap shot and can't be proven.

[Chargerfanatic]

You should look at the stickers on the new vehicles. There are plenty fo Dodges new cars getting the MPG that the others are getting and they are most of the time less priced vehicles.

I don't see any Dodge cars getting 39 mpg for a price tag less than $16,000.

[Red Ram]

No joking...I read an article today in an industry magazine that Chrysler will be producing a Hybrid/Hemi. Apparently they even have the emblem that will go on the car already figured out.

I'm waiting for a Hydrogen car...you can drink the exhaust. Maybe technology will progress to the beer emitting car. The Dodge High-Life .

[Mike DC]

 
We absolutely suck at storing electricity.  Our battery technology has been a roadblock throughout the engineering world for a long time.

I think the variable-displacement thing on current V8s is the most functional advancement that anybody has made in decades. 
(But unfortunately, the press isn't nearly as interested in advancements when Detroit is the one breaking them.  I wonder what the coverage would have been if Toyota had invented MDS instead?)

[Ghoste]

HUGE!  Big stinking huge.

[Steve P.]

"hey thats awsome bull run is awsome i was hoping you would win but you didnt you should have becuase you never talked slack you deserved to win the thing the trans am should have lost not won your charger is awsome realy cool"

I wonder if he speaks in mono tone.. 

[Steve P.]

I said id never buy another "new" car again but if they can offer me some serious MPG I would consider it.  It would save money in the long run.  Id rather have that extra money in my pocket for the nice days when I take my Charger out.  I drove my 79 Blazer today and at 6 mpg average, its getting a little expensive. 

At 6 MPG you better get to work on your little 1/2 ton..  I have a 6000 pound Super crew with a V-10 that does 11.6 around town and 10 mpg towing....


I think the time is right for ALL markets to get on the IT train to figure this problem out. The USA has fallen down as far as manufacturing and R&D. We claim and claim but for much of it we are living in the past. Other countries are spanking us in many fields. Brazil with the sugar cane fuels comes to mind. They got started on this back in the 70's. Now they lead the world.

I remember reading in the paper way back in the early 80's about a guy that lived in Rochester, NY. that made fuel for his farm tractor out of the crap he normally turned back into the ground for compost. Did anyone pick up on it back then?? Hell no...  If this had been studied and worked up back then we would be in a much better place today.

Over the past 20 years or so the big three have made huge gains in fuel millage. The problem was not that they can't make a nice looking, light and comfortable high millage car. It's that every time they make a breakthrough in tech. they decide we need bigger vehicles that can tow 70 million pounds. They can make a small, comfortable econo-box. They have..

I am guilty of owning a gas slob. I do my share of towing and I will not tow with something small for many reasons. The biggest being that I like the idea of staying alive and not killing others..  The fact is, in the state of Florida it is very expensive to insure vehicles. It is also very expensive to buy yearly tags. I would love to have my truck hooked to my trailer all the time and only use it when I NEED a big truck and trailer. I would love to have a small car that I can park anywhere and get 30 - 50 MPG. Fact is it would cost me an extra $1800.00 per year for an old shitbox with no collision or anything else on it. A new shitbox would double that.. This is a fact. I checked recently.. I even tried to get a transporter tag. Forget that!!!!! 

We have many bridges to cross and maybe even a move or two before I will be happy.

[aone415]

Being that I'm in the market for a new car I was hell bent on getting an 07 Charger SRT-8...I test drove one, loved it and began to talk turkey with the dealer regarding pricing until I saw the $2,100 GAS GUZZLER TAX  I began to look at the window sticker a little closer and saw that the SRT-8 got the same MPG as my 04 Expedition did.  That was the deal breaker.  Most Americans cannot afford to have a 'family' sedan that gets 11MPG in the city.  It's just impractical.

[89MOPAR]

I've had about enough of the hybrid and "green" hype.
I have loads of magazines from the 70's where the Plymouth Arrow / Colt, etc got 40+ mpg.
Why ? because they were lightweight, basic cars.
Now everyone wants power everything, A DVD player for their kids, a parking assist feature, dual climate gloveboxes and other weighty options.

HEY I've got an idea if someone wants to be "Green" ......
   Try growing some of your own food.  Consider not buying a house that has 4 bedrooms and 3 1/2 baths,for a family of four, that has 1000 sq ft more space than you would need.
   Quit buying so many "individually wrapped" snacks.  Maybe don't have that 3rd or 4th child.....or 5th or 6th.  Quit buying things that are plastic based. Maybe you don't need a cellphone plan w/ 1000's of minutes a month.

Anyhow, my rant.  I'll keep driving conventional type cars until I see how many "hybrid" motors fail because they turn off and on at every stoplight.

[Troy]

As I've stated before in these discussions, no one wants to have to change *their* life to make the world a better place. The fuel mileage of some cars isn't a whole lot better than it was three decades ago but, the overall average is much better. There are a lot more cars these days so that average has a huge impact and modern cars are much nicer and safer too. I'd still rather get 23 mpg in my Barracuda than 16 mpg in my truck.

FYI - Toyota just surpassed 1 million hybrids:
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070607/UPDATE/706070458

89MOPAR: I just noticed you're building a Noble.

Troy

[Steve P.]

Man,,,, GREEN isn't just green.  It hits us all in the pocket as well as the environment. Try to not look at it so much as Al Gore yelling in your dreams. More like, (Last week at this time I was pulling in), while you drive on by the gas station..    Many things need to be fixed to make it all work well. Starting something positive is much better than watching something negative.   

I have already written our new Gov. (Charlie Christ), about being able to afford insurance for more than one vehicle in my name. With my name on 2 vehicles and 2 other licensed drivers in my house I will never be able to afford the insurance. Even if the other drivers are NOT insured to drive my truck!!!!!!  I want to be able to do my part. Saving the truck for heavy loads would do this.

I bought my son in law a 99' Kia Sportage for $1500.00....  He loves the damn thing and gets great milage. He went from a S-10 to the Kia and stops at the gas station every 2.5 weeks now instead of every 5-6 days..


I think the big 3 should be building ALL trucks with diesels. They are stronger, last longer, can burn nearly anything as a fuel and the biggest, heaviest get more miles per gallon than my sponge...

I spoke with a guy that drives a 06' Dodge Sprinter with a super high roof and duels. He said he has the Mercedes 5 cylinder and gets 29 MPG driving an average speed of 75 on the highway.. Says he had pulled his loaded trailer with it and it drops to about 23 MPG... Loaded and he gets more than 2 times the millage I get unloaded..

I would own one myself if I could afford the extra insurance. I would rather only buy MADE IN THE USA vehicles, but let's face it, NONE OF THEM ARE TOTALLY USA ANYMORE.  Hell, you'd be lucky to find a part on most cars today built here..

[Brock Samson]

just in the last month i've noticed a huge spike in the camery hybreds around town, and of course as ive noted before the prius is as common around here as impalas. furys  and galaxies were when i was a kid...
im interested myself in the new Honda that's commin out i think it's the FCX... i'll dig up a link..

  http://automobiles.honda.com/future-cars/index.asp?ModelStart=fcx









  "Honda is proud to introduce the newest Honda fuel-cell car, the FCX Concept, a precursor to the production car coming in 2008. This amazing vehicle drives completely clean—emitting nothing into the air but water vapor. And the energy source for this next-generation automobile is...hydrogen. A clean, domestic fuel that significantly cuts carbon emissions. Yet unlike early fuel-cell prototypes, the FCX Concept features a well-equipped, full-sized cabin, complete with the latest amenities. There will be lots more to learn about fuel-cell technology in the near future as the new FCX Concept evolves into a production vehicle. Because the future is closer than you think."

[hutch]

I got an idea that would bring gas down to under a buck a gallon like it was for years....   DRILL for oil....

[Troy]

I got an idea that would bring gas down to under a buck a gallon like it was for years....   DRILL for oil....

We have too much oil sitting in storage already - it's the refining part that we're struggling with.

Troy

[Steve P.]

We need to farm our fuel. Save the oil for making goods not burning... 

[bull]

Man,,,, GREEN isn't just green.  It hits us all in the pocket as well as the environment.

The only "greens" people honestly care about are greenbacks. Build all the hybrid, electric and fuel cell cars you want but if they cost too much more than a conventional car and don't save people money at the pump they will just sit on the lot.

Part of the problem with all this is the indecision involved. Too much experimentation and not enough solid results and no one seems to want to be on the same page. Too much, "are we going with beta or VHS? I don't know, how about we do both and then try to destroy each other and see who wins?" I know that's the nature of capitalism but this is one thing we need to have done right the first time IMO.

Nothing is going to happen with hydroden fuel cells until there are hundreds of thousands of places all across the nation ready to deal with hydrogen production and storage. And that would be a major PITA. Hybrids are ok but as stated above the fuel economy is not much better than conventional gas engines in similar-sized vehicles. For example our two hybrid city buses get 6 mpg instead of 5 like the conventional buses, which looks great on paper I guess because it's a 20% increase but when each hybrid bus costs $350k instead of $250k like the regular diesel buses I would like to see it doing around 50-60% better on the mpg rating. I suppose that's why we only have two of them and no plans to buy more.

IMO we should stay with the direction we're going with gas cars and simply add straight electric cars to the mix, maybe hoping for something like 50% of all commuter cars being electric in the next couple decades if they are made affordable and practical very soon. The more they are purchased and used the more the technology will flourish. Everyone I know has an electrical outlet in their garage so Hybrid and straight electric are the only two technologies that can be immediately supported nationwide right now. I just don't think hybrid technology goes far enough to put even a dent in our dependence on foreign oil and IMO we're a long, long way from going anywhere with fuel cell technology because there's no practical infrastructure to support it.

I still think that ethanol and alcohol deserve a lot more attention but no one in power seems to agree.

[Rocky]

The problem with electric cars is that people think they are doing something good, but they are merely moving the pollution from their own back yard to someone elses.    Most of the electricity produced in the US comes from coal fired plants.  I like the idea of hybrids, but would like to see how long the batteries last, and if or how they will be recycled.  I think car companies are moving in the right direction, but until there is a real breakthrough I will continue to drive my 98 Neon that gets nearly 40 mpg for a commuter car.

[Mike DC]

Agreed. 

Unfortunately, we found the most power-effective & cheap way to burn a car the first time - oil.  Oil is literally stored-up power sitting in the ground.  For the last 100 years all we've had to do is scoop it up, filter out the worst of the impurities, and burn it. 
Everything else is gonna be a step down from oil in terms of cost & feasibility. 

We'll be lucky if we find anything cleaner.  Electricity might work at some point but not right now.  We can't generate it cleanly, and we can't even store it very well once we actually have it. 

 

[Steve P.]

Man,,,, GREEN isn't just green.  It hits us all in the pocket as well as the environment.

I still think that ethanol and alcohol deserve a lot more attention but no one in power seems to agree.

Not totallllly true, Bull. The rejects, I mean politicians here in Florida are actually looking into building up E/85 and pure ethanol plants here. We have a few police departments using home grown and I believe they are soon to start some buses on it. 

Florida politicians get hammered every time they gather in Florida cities as the VEGGIE MOBILES always show up and make everyone hungry with their FRENCH FRY MOBILES. This gets the media asking questions of the polars that they cannot answer.. Simple questions like, (How is it that this young man over here with no shoes on his feet or teeth in his head can drive his car on used French Fry oil and you can't figure out even why you feel hungry)?

My .02 is simple. For all of us with gas hungry machines, be them new or old, we need to grow our fuel. The same goes for Diesel. Henry Ford had it right wanting to use the diesel engine instead of gas. Diesels can run on about anything. That is what they were designed for.. Hydrogen will probably be the future, but we may just find that we can produce Ethanol cars to run just as well or better than our gas cars. It would put many thousands of people to work and we can save the carbon/oil for things like plastics, tires and lubricants.

[Steve P.]

Agreed. 

Unfortunately, we found the most power-effective & cheap way to burn a car the first time - oil.  Oil is literally stored-up power sitting in the ground.  For the last 100 years all we've had to do is scoop it up, filter out the worst of the impurities, and burn it. 
Everything else is gonna be a step down from oil in terms of cost & feasibility. 

We'll be lucky if we find anything cleaner.  Electricity might work at some point but not right now.  We can't generate it cleanly, and we can't even store it very well once we actually have it. 

 

Not true Mike. We are buying way, way, way more oil from other countries. It has to be shipped here either by sea or piped or by truck. All of these other vehicles cost and cost big. Then it must be refined. That again is a huge cost. Then back to the pipes, tanks and trucks. 
Well, if WE grow it, (emphasis on WE), this will create jobs. When WE are no longer at war over oil WE will need jobs for those not overseas fighting. We will always need crude oil for many thing that most of us have no idea are made with oil. The list is very very long. At any rate it will cost us to grow, harvest and squeeze our home grown fuel. This is very true. BUT,,, it will be much cheaper than spending billions of dollars elsewhere and brutally losing life after life in pursuit of oil..   

[hutch]

well look at what buring our food supply has done,  grain prices are way up, beef prices are going way way up.  I think we need to burn less of our food supply and start to to make more gas than we do.  We have access to tons of oil.  why beat around the bush and deal with tossing out the good old gas burning engine sure make it better. but dont toss it out.  I remember when you could buy a nice car for  under 2k.  now with all the crap the goverment makes auto makers add for safty and emissions, cars cost 20K and its going up. its stupid.  Spend billions on research for something as simple as a car?  its a waste of money and all it does is produce expensive cars normal people cant afford.

[Steve P.]

Hutch, If you are old enough to remember being able to buy a car for $2K, then you are old enough to remember what our air quality was like back then as well. Maybe you just don't want to.. It was terrible..

Nobody is looking to throw away our gas eating monsters. Just to burn something other than GASOLINE in them.

Everything goes up in price. BURNING FOOD, as you put it, is not exactly what is happening. The stalks from corn, grasses, bark, weeds etc. are what I am talking about turning into Ethanol. Many other things as well. And no we are not turning cows into fuel. But the shit they leave behind can be turned into fuel..... 

Right now Ethanol cost more to make than gas. What you have to understand is that oil will not be around forever. We are paying a monstrous price for it now. (WAR)... (LIVES).....  For what?? So we don't have to make a few changes in our lives?? E/85 is in many areas now in the West and Mid-West. Is it killing anyone out there?? Have you been hearing about the terrible things that are caused by it?? NO... 

When people figured out how to make gas they had no idea it's potential. They also had no idea they were killing all kinds of life dumping the NON-GASOLINE products into the local reservoirs. We are not living in the early 1900's. We understand better today about action and reaction. What is killing us is that people are afraid to open their minds and try something new. Horse and buggy and stage coaches were before cars. People didn't want cars around. Then steam engines. What would be so bad about running your car on water??

The day will come when we have no choice. I would rather we are smart about things now and not when it's too late..