Gas station boycott lets stand up and be heard

[Troy]

I'm not missing the point - it's been beaten to death so many times in the past and there's NO new information here. For fun, you could use the search and look up "gas prices" and read all of the great information that's been posted previously. Last year the oil companies were making "record profits" but, in the grand scheme of things, they were hovering around 8-11% which is less than most banks and insurance companies and nowhere near the level of the best performing companies. Who's robbing who? I'm sure there are plenty of people who agree with you but I've found that most haven't done any research whatsoever and are reacting based on "feelings".

When I started driving gas was less than $0.80 and everyone complained about it. I even sold my Challenger and Charger due to poor gas mileage (imagine that - I was getting 16+ with the 318 in my Charger and the car I bought only got 23). I sacrificed to make a change which is what I'm advocating here. A guy at work complains every day about the price of gas yet insists on driving his gas guzzler BMW 20 miles each way and spends $50 per month on car washes. When I mentioned buying a different car, washing his car at home, or moving closer to work he acted like I'd just grown a second head. I mean, how could he possibly be asked to compromise when all these other people were making so much money?

From my perspective, many people whining about gas prices are not willing to change their life/habits/livelihood one bit to make a difference but they fully expect someone (everyone) else to. Why should oil companies lower the price, their profits, their employees salaries just to make someone else happy when people will buy their product at nearly any price yet still complain even when it's cheaper? They should just give it away free I suppose. Once they all go bankrupt and gas stops flowing people will blame them for mismanagement and demand the government change to ensure that everyone has access to gas. All the while the consumers still won't be willing to compromise their own lives.

By the way, the "two oil guys in office" weren't the ones who proposed an increase in the gas tax. Gas in Europe is nearly double the cost here. Do you think the difference is going to the oil companies? And just to cover everything, Nacho pays $0.27 per gallon (last time I checked) and he lives in a country run by a "real" oil guy.

Troy

[70charger_boy]

Problem solved.. I'm moving to nacho land

[RECHRGD]

Well I don't normally jump in these kind of threads, but before this one gets locked, I'll put in my two cents.  I'm sick and tired of everyone blaming these price hikes on "SUPPLY AND DEMAND" as if that process makes it acceptable and we should just continue to tighten our belts until we must lower our standard of living.  Just because the oil companies CAN sell their products at huge profit margins does not mean that they SHOULD!  I know that goes against my capitalist way of thinking, but the economy of our great country is at stake here.  People on low incomes are suffering, the prices of all commodities are tied to the price of energy and are also skyrocking.  I'm usually not one for price controls on anything, but energy is the engine of our ecomony and limits should be put in place on the profits allowed on the sale of this country's life blood.  Unfortunately, as long as our political system allows our leaders to be purchased by big business nothing will change.  Immigration problems aside, we're making our own third world country on this issue alone.  There, now we can lock the thread.   Thanks, Bob

[Silver R/T]

another good reason for me to buy a harley. I get about 20mpg in town with my mx-3, I wont even talk about Charger.

[70charger_boy]

Well I don't normally jump in these kind of threads, but before this one gets locked, I'll put in my two cents.  I'm sick and tired of everyone blaming these price hikes on "SUPPLY AND DEMAND" as if that process makes it acceptable and we should just continue to tighten our belts until we must lower our standard of living.  Just because the oil companies CAN sell their products at huge profit margins does not mean that they SHOULD!  I know that goes against my capitalist way of thinking, but the economy of our great country is at stake here.  People on low incomes are suffering, the prices of all commodities are tied to the price of energy and are also skyrocking.  I'm usually not one for price controls on anything, but energy is the engine of our ecomony and limits should be put in place on the profits allowed on the sale of this country's life blood.  Unfortunately, as long as our political system allows our leaders to be purchased by big business nothing will change.  Immigration problems aside, we're making our own third world country on this issue alone.  There, now we can lock the thread.   Thanks, Bob

[Troy]

This site is "free" for the users but it costs me a lot of money. If it were my business there's no way it could survive. So, if I were an oil company and lowered my prices to the point where the consumers were happy then I'd be bankrupt in no time as well. The problem(s) with asking the government to control prices are: where do you think they'll get the money to subsidize gasoline and how much will it cost them to manage it? Someone still has to pay and, in the end, it's us. We already subsidize ethanol to keep the costs down but, as I mentioned before, that has a far reaching impact as well.

I really don't consider 8-11% a huge profit margin. Think about it: the oil companies themselves are selling gas for around $1.50-1.60 wholesale the last time I checked. If they lopped off 10% it would only make a $0.15 dent in the cost at the pump. The cost to transport it won't change much and the individual stations are hardly rolling in profits from gasoline sales (most of their high percentage items are soda, candy, bottled water, lottery tickets and cigarettes).

So, this takes us back to demand. If people used 10% less fuel it would have a much greater impact on our planet as a whole and the cost of fuel than by forcing an artificial limit. Unfortunately, if demand here in the US decreases then the oil companies will sell to someone else (ie China) or OPEC and other oil producers will cut production which will bring the supply/demand equation back into a balance that favors them. Reducing demand also means we'll have access to oil/gas for longer than is currently predicted which is a good thing. Switching demand to an alternative source would allow us to use the same amount of energy but the competition for consumers' $$$ will have a positive impact on prices.

In my opinion, if no one is willing to make compromises their life to make things better then they have no room to complain. Would I like to spend 30% or more less on my monthly fuel bills? Of course! But I'm not willing to make drastic changes in my life to save $60 (and neither are a LOT of other people). It's also my opinion that the person (or persons) who goes out of their way to make a difference deserves to be rewarded so when someone successfully releases a new source of energy I won't complain when they are rolling in billions. Unfortunately, this will also likely be the oil companies as I've mentioned before (they already have the infrastructure and the research funds).

Maybe I'll shut down the site and start a wind farm to power my Tesla...

Troy

[Troy]

Problem solved.. I'm moving to nacho land

See ya. Should I mention that you'd then have to put up with an unstable dictator (yeah, I know he was "elected" but now he's pretty much permanent) who could easily have you jailed, tortured, and/or killed for speaking out against the government? Is cheap gas really worth it?

Troy

[Vainglory, Esq.]

Well I don't normally jump in these kind of threads, but before this one gets locked, I'll put in my two cents.  I'm sick and tired of everyone blaming these price hikes on "SUPPLY AND DEMAND" as if that process makes it acceptable and we should just continue to tighten our belts until we must lower our standard of living.  Just because the oil companies CAN sell their products at huge profit margins does not mean that they SHOULD!  I know that goes against my capitalist way of thinking, but the economy of our great country is at stake here.  People on low incomes are suffering, the prices of all commodities are tied to the price of energy and are also skyrocking.  I'm usually not one for price controls on anything, but energy is the engine of our ecomony and limits should be put in place on the profits allowed on the sale of this country's life blood.  Unfortunately, as long as our political system allows our leaders to be purchased by big business nothing will change.  Immigration problems aside, we're making our own third world country on this issue alone.  There, now we can lock the thread.   Thanks, Bob

Usually I don't touch these posts with a ten foot pole, but I can't let this one go.  The whole idea that energy drives our economy, if it is true at all (which I don't think so, but let's assume for a moment that it is), is the very best reason in the world why the capitalist system must be brought to bear on it.  I don't think you realize how much regulation is involved in the energy sector, but capitalism has shown, every single last time, to lower prices in the long run.  If we actually had a pure capitalist market working in the energy sector, you'd be seeing lower prices already.

Your argument could be analogized thusly: "I think freedom is so important that we have to take away everyone's freedom to make sure that they don't take away other people's freedom."

Or alternatively: "The heart is so important to life that I'm going to the doctor to have it removed so that I can't damage it."

[PocketThunder]

Maybe I'll shut down the site and start a wind farm to power my Tesla...

Troy

Base Price $92,000!!!!!!!!!         Holy Smokes!

I'll go this route instead >>>  http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/021.html

[Charger_Fan]

are you related to Silver68?. 

You're the 30th person that asked me that

[69CoronetRT]

This site is "free"... Unfortunately, this will also likely be the oil companies as I've mentioned before (they already have the infrastructure and the research funds).

Maybe I'll shut down the site and start a wind farm to power my Tesla...

Troy

I had a long post written but it's just as easy to say " ".

People have complained for 30+ years about the price of gas but are still not willing to do anything about it but complain.

[Supercharged Riot]

Well, I'm really pissed at the rise of gas prices in the last 3 months.  I drive 100 miles a day roundtrip to work and back in a 5.2 liter truck.  I don't think it's fair that I spend 106 bucks a week in gas.  I'm sick of paying 3 bucks a gallon and I'm afraid we'll hit 4 bucks a gallon come summertime.  Is there anything we could do?  I'm so  surprised that the people in this country care more about the babies daddy of Anna Nicole and nobody cares about rising gas prices.

So, is there an effective way we can let the oil companies know that we are all pissed?  Maybe boycotting certain gas stations certain days of the week?

The real solution:
1) Get a car that has 4 cylinders
2) Move closer to work or get a job closer to home
3) Stop commuting places for fun and find activities within walking distances
4) Tell your kids to take the bus (and take their cars away)

These are actual solutions for boycotting gas prices.  Ive had other people suggest buying gas on designated days, but its really not the solution because it only changes what days you buy gas, not how much you actually spend.

I've done all I can.  I got a job thats 2.2 miles away from my house. 

Only problem I got now is school. It used to be 1 extra mile away from work, but I just transferred and its now 18 miles away from home.  I still limit my driving habits.  If I buy stuff. its usually online. No more driving to places

[Brock Samson]

so no one is willing to bike instead of drive?.. 

i'm thinkin this will be my next ride/project...   



http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.manxclub.com/images/mr-manx1.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.manxclub.com/realmanx.htm&h=228&w=351&sz=28&hl=en&start=3&tbnid=_k6392k1_5XcGM:&tbnh=78&tbnw=120&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dmyers%2Bmanx%26gbv%3D2%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG

[bull]

This site is "free"... Unfortunately, this will also likely be the oil companies as I've mentioned before (they already have the infrastructure and the research funds).

Maybe I'll shut down the site and start a wind farm to power my Tesla...

Troy

I had a long post written but it's just as easy to say " ".

People have complained for 30+ years about the price of gas but are still not willing to do anything about it but complain.

In reality there's nothing you can do about it short of inventing your own propulsion system (which the govt. would likely disallow). I do like that Tesla thing though. Can you get that in an SUV configuration?

EDIT** Well, rat farts. Turns out that even at the equivalent of 135 mpg it's about as practical as a gold-plated shovel. The base model costs $50k and I can't transport my family in it unless the kids sit on my lap. Anyone else got any bright ideas?

[Troy]

This site is "free"... Unfortunately, this will also likely be the oil companies as I've mentioned before (they already have the infrastructure and the research funds).

Maybe I'll shut down the site and start a wind farm to power my Tesla...

Troy

I had a long post written but it's just as easy to say " ".

People have complained for 30+ years about the price of gas but are still not willing to do anything about it but complain.

In reality there's nothing you can do about it short of inventing your own propulsion system (which the govt. would likely disallow). I do like that Tesla thing though. Can you get that in an SUV configuration?

You should be saying "there's nothing you can't do"? That's not a good example of good ol' "American ingenuity". I mean, where would we be today if the Wright Brothers, Franklin, Goodyear, Jefferson, Bell, Edison, Firestone, Morse, Oppenheimer, Whitney, Otis, or Ford had that attitude? What if Al Gore hadn't invented the internet so that Napster could exact revenge on Rock & Roll for humiliating his wife in those ridiculous congressional hearings?

Tesla is a perfect example of the right attitude (and a direct contradiction to the assumption that the government would disallow something new and/or alternative). Those guys aren't "car guys" - they are mostly Silicon Valley techies with an idea and some investors. Tesla's next car is a sedan but the range isn't as great because of the additional weight. However, the proposed price is around $42k.

Troy

[70charger_boy]

I have been reasearching making bio diesel and found out it's really not that hard.  You just need some methanol and some lye, So, I went to 3 Mc Donalds and 2 burger kings.  I wrangled up 48 gallons of vegetable oil and plan on making 30 gallons.  I just bought a ford diesel and plan on selling some to some of my diesel buddies.   

[Troy]

I have been reasearching making bio diesel and found out it's really not that hard.  You just need some methanol and some lye, So, I went to 3 Mc Donalds and 2 burger kings.  I wrangled up 48 gallons of vegetable oil and plan on making 30 gallons.  I just bought a ford diesel and plan on selling some to some of my diesel buddies.   

Yet another great use for the "Search" feature (we've covered this a few times too). My only problem with producing biodiesel at home is that when it gets too popular you'll lose your source(s) of free used oil. That makes the cost a little less attractive. Until then, if all you're worried about is your money (and your time has no value) then it's a great way to save. It doesn't have any impact on overall consumption or emissions but if you aren't concerned with the planet then that's not a big deal. I have a diesel as well and if anyone I knew were willing to take the time to make the stuff I'd be more than happy to buy it off them at a discount.

Just out of curiosity, how much fuel did you use rounding up your 48 gallons of vegetable oil and how much time did it take? What are the costs for building the reactor, buying the mixing materials, and heating it all up? Try not to injure yourself handling the lye and/or sulfuric acid...

By the way, the problems with commercially produced biodiesel stems from the fact that it generally requires some sort of vegetable oil (namely soybean). See the issues with ethanol production for the side-effects of that. Yes, it's a renewable source but not a perfect one. I did just read an interesting article on using wood chips as the basis which could be interesting. Scientists are coming up with new ideas all the time and diesel engines are relatively common throughout the world so this is a good way to start moving away from fossil fuels.

Troy

[70charger_boy]

Just out of curiosity, how much fuel did you use rounding up your 48 gallons of vegetable oil and how much time did it take? What are the costs for building the reactor, buying the mixing materials, and heating it all up? Try not to injure yourself handling the lye and/or sulfuric acid...

By the way, the problems with commercially produced biodiesel stems from the fact that it generally requires some sort of vegetable oil (namely soybean). See the issues with ethanol production for the side-effects of that. Yes, it's a renewable source but not a perfect one. I did just read an interesting article on using wood chips as the basis which could be interesting. Scientists are coming up with new ideas all the time and diesel engines are relatively common throughout the world so this is a good way to start moving away from fossil fuels.

Troy

As far as how much it cost me in fuel to get the 48 gallons of vegetable oil it was on my way home from work and I drive 52 miles one way.  It did take alot of my time, though, but I really don't have a life and feel that this will be a great investment on what I can do about breaking the chains from the oil companies.  I know it won't make me into a millionaire.  One thing I found out is if I sell it to others that will be highly illegal.  So, I'll just give it away. 
  As far as my equipment, I bought an Elite Processor capable of making 40 gallons of biodiesel. That cost me 1,300 bucks.  As far as getting a return on my investment I figure I'll get my money back in 4 months ($400.00 a month gas 700.00 for used diesel truck) Plus, I could sell the glycerin that is made from the process to perfume companies.  I'm not sure if I'll go that far.  One of the sites that I got my info on was this one
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_mike.html
you can purchase the tank from ebay http://cgi.ebay.com/ELITE-BIODIESEL-PROCESSOR-Make-your-own-fuel_W0QQitemZ290112069795QQihZ019QQcategoryZ57114QQcmdZViewItem

The only problem I'm going to run into is getting the vegetable oil once this process becomes popular.  Everyone was asking me what I was going to do with it?  I told them I was going to make bio diesel and I think it's going to be harder to get next time.

[bull]

You should be saying "there's nothing you can't do"? That's not a good example of good ol' "American ingenuity". I mean, where would we be today if the Wright Brothers, Franklin, Goodyear, Jefferson, Bell, Edison, Firestone, Morse, Oppenheimer, Whitney, Otis, or Ford had that attitude? What if Al Gore hadn't invented the internet so that Napster could exact revenge on Rock & Roll for humiliating his wife in those ridiculous congressional hearings?

Speaking of congressional hearings, I seriously doubt the Wright Brothers, Franklin, Goodyear, Jefferson, Bell, Edison, Firestone, Morse, Oppenheimer, Whitney, Otis, or Henry Ford had to deal with govt. regulations anywhere near the level we do today, if at all. Do you think anyone would be allowed to create a new type of infrastructure for alternative fuels on a national scale anytime soon? You'd be lucky to get them to allow battery exchange stations for electric cars, let alone alternative liquid fuel stations. I'm afraid the politicians' heads are too far up the oil company exec's you-know-whats for that to happen within the next 20 years. They are afraid because it would cost too many jobs and cost them too many votes.

Tesla is a perfect example of the right attitude (and a direct contradiction to the assumption that the government would disallow something new and/or alternative). Those guys aren't "car guys" - they are mostly Silicon Valley techies with an idea and some investors. Tesla's next car is a sedan but the range isn't as great because of the additional weight. However, the proposed price is around $42k.

It is the right attitude but it's still very impracticle. As usual another plan for mass-produced electric cars is going to fall by the wayside or end up just being a toy for the rich. When are these "techies" going to stop screwing around and build something usable by the general public? You keep saying we should be brewing ethanol in our garages or stacking 12v batteries in our trunks in these threads and I'm talking about the need for eight different models of cars, SUVs and minivans the average Joe can afford to buy down at the Tesla dealer. I don't see too many single moms or old people with the ability to build electric cars in their spare time.

[Troy]

Patience. They had to produce one model at first to prove the concept and to start generating income to further development. No one <repeat no one> is going to start with an affordable base model (or ten models) when pushing new technology out the door. It didn't happen with airbags, plastics, or carbon fiber and those components  are not as major as a power train. They are hardly "screwing around". Their research showed that previous electric cars tried to appeal to regular drivers (read basic transportation) and they all failed. The models lacked passion and marketability - not to mention battery technology. The roadster is an attempt to appeal to car aficionados with a car that looks and performs like a car instead of a kitchen appliance. Also note that their second model is less than half the price of the first due to having a proven platform to work from. What will the price be for the fourth or fifth model or after production has been steady for a few years and the batteries/motors are more common? You gotta start somewhere - Edison made one light bulb and the basic design lasted for decades. If it takes another six or ten years to get into a full model lineup then they're still ahead of everyone else.

How is the Tesla impractical exactly? These cars are primarily marketed in California where people have the cash to afford one, drive relatively short distances, and sit in traffic for long periods of time when the engine won't be drawing any power. California is also much more accepting of low/no emissions vehicles. The next markets are all large cities like New York and Chicago in order to put service centers close to the majority of owners so a large dealer network is unnecessary. For the record, Tesla purchased the design and manufacture of the chassis from Lotus so all the federal regulations were covered by someone who knew how the process worked. The batteries are essentially the same as a standard laptop so they didn't have to develop any of the major components in-house. With a manufacturer in place and by using off the shelf parts for most of the systems (like brakes and steering) they probably cut years off the time to market. I can't imagine a cheaper, faster, more streamlined approach. I wish I'd have thought of it.

I don't believe I've ever advocated making your own fuel of stacking batteries in your car. I have no problems with the price of gas and I'm fairly positive I've never complained about it here or anywhere else. However, if someone else does have a problem with it then there are alternatives (not practical for the most part) and suggestions on how they can make a difference. Change isn't likely to happen overnight though and if there's no action then change isn't likely to happen at all. Car companies, like oil companies, are in business to make money - not to satisfy the whims and desires of the rest of us. They make what they have the best chance of selling for a profit. Period. The only reason they practically give away hybrids is because the government forces them to (and they're subsidized). Once the components drop in price (economies of scale) then the price of the cars will drop and more people can buy them which perpetuates the cycle. That process takes time so again, if you want to see a change then do something to make it happen.

As difficult as the government is do you really think that any one of them would turn down the chance to champion new technology that benefits the environment and saves their constituents money? Heck, a normal citizen can build their own spacecraft within government regulations so why not a car?

Troy

[BMOTOXSTAR]

I think that I am going to start peeing in my gas tank.

[bull]

I think the drivers have exercised plenty of patience when it comes to electric cars. Pete's sake, they had them back in the late 1800s and every push since then to put them on the road in big numbers again has flopped and I don't think it's because the technology is not viable. All we seem to get are fleet cars or test programs that go nowhere from companies like AMC and GM back in the '70s and '80s where you lease instead of own. Then they label the programs failures and scrap the cars. How did they fail? I don't call a commuter car that can do 50-70 mph and has a range of 80-100 miles a failure. You're not going to win a drag race but I could get to work in 20 minutes like I do now.

I believe they fail because they are being set up for failure. IMO electric cars are designed to become little more than PR stunts for the companies that produce them. Maybe Tesla is different since they (hopefully) aren't in bed with any politicians or mainstream car companies. But I wouldn't be surprised if they are getting some big offers to sell out. Hopefully Lotus won't pull the plug on the chassis if Tesla gains momentum. I could see something like that happening.

Like everything else, it has to do with whose hand is being held out and who is placing the money into that hand or who has the power to get/keep their pet projects. Politics, plain and simple. If it's possible for the American populous to get pissed enough to throw the bums out things might start to move forward but I have the feeling there is no Abraham Lincoln of alternative fuels coming to save the day anytime soon.

As far as this: "Car companies, like oil companies, are in business to make money - not to satisfy the whims and desires of the rest of us. They make what they have the best chance of selling for a profit." Sure, on one hand. On the other hand there's tons of money to be made by satisfying the whims and desires of the consumer. Probably 40% of the stuff I buy is stuff I don't really need. I don't need DVDs or 1:25 scale model Chargers or straw cowboy hats, you name it, but people want that stuff and are willing to pay and there are people who want electric cars. Why is it so hard to deliver? It's almost as if someone with some power doesn't want it to happen.

Forgive my pessimism but it seems to me there really has been a lot of screwing around when it comes to moving ahead with alternative fuels, specifically electric cars. Just think where we'd be today with electric transportation technology had someone stuck with it since the first one hit the streets back in 1890.

[Brock Samson]

"Just think where we'd be today with electric transportation technology had someone stuck with it since the first one hit the streets back in 1890."


    Then we'd Really have a CHARGER!

[Troy]

I'd copy and paste from the last 85 times we've discussed this topic over the last five years but that would require me to spend effort on something totally useless. I think I'll mow my grass one blade at a time with some nail clippers instead. It will be less painful and have a greater impact.

By the way, whenever this big boycott actually happens (it hasn't yet even though I've gotten several hundred emails about it), let me know and I'll be sure to fill up that day. There shouldn't be a line...

Troy

Moan if you want but at least this time we are talking about ways to conserve instead of just belly-aching. Did you happen to notice that?

So, I felt bad and decided to offer ideas and then you change your whining from oil companies to how unfeasible my ideas are still without actually doing any research on your own. How about taking some time and gathering some facts before you try to poke holes in Tesla's (or anyone's) business model and commitment or whether the evil oil industry can influence the government enough to shut them down? FYI - the cars are already on the road. I have been following this stuff for well over a year and I really just don't have the time or desire to print every single bit of knowledge I've learned when it's all publicly available to anyone who can click a mouse button. Tesla owns the car - Lotus is basically a subcontractor providing some engineering services, the factory, and labor. If, for some oddball reason, Lotus backs out they just need a new factory - which I'm sure will be necessary when production goes to more than 100 cars per year (but a stupid idea at this time).

At least if someone wants to make their own diesel or convert their car to LPG I know most of the pros and cons because I've also researched those. Just because I'm not chomping at the bit to conserve gasoline doesn't mean I don't entertain other ideas. You have to remember that where I live gasoline is a lot cheaper than most other places, public transportation is not practical, riding a bike is illegal on the roads I drive (and a suicide mission with the drivers around here), there is no rail or light rail available, and I'm too far away from work to walk. It is my choice to live here and work where I do but it doesn't really bother me. School buses here have been running propane for at least 20 years though. You guys in the city probably didn't know there were school buses...

However, after spending a week in the San Francisco area I can see that there are massive problems in certain areas. The technology, infrastructure, and market for any alternatives will happen some place like that first. It will take a long time for adoption in other areas but starting small in a stable environment is necessary. I even made a comment that there were so many Scions out there. If you go to many Scion dealers here they're no bigger than a shop in a strip mall and you're lucky if there are more than four cars on the lot. On the other hand, I don't remember seeing a single 1 ton dually but there are at least five on my street. You can't realistically haul wood, mulch, hay, lawn mowers, or even four wheelers in a Scion, Smart Car, Prius, or Tesla roadster. Those cars will never have a huge impact here but that doesn't mean there isn't a market anywhere. Interestingly enough, even with all the traffic and gasoline prices in California people were still driving alone in their cars. Public transportation, car pooling, light rail, subway, etc. are great ideas *if* people use them but Americans are attached to their cars and the freedom to go where they want, when they want. That's why it's a good idea to make a car that people actually like that happens to have environmental benefits.

Troy

[Troy]

As far as this: "Car companies, like oil companies, are in business to make money - not to satisfy the whims and desires of the rest of us. They make what they have the best chance of selling for a profit." Sure, on one hand. On the other hand there's tons of money to be made by satisfying the whims and desires of the consumer. Probably 40% of the stuff I buy is stuff I don't really need. I don't need DVDs or 1:25 scale model Chargers or straw cowboy hats, you name it, but people want that stuff and are willing to pay and there are people who want electric cars. Why is it so hard to deliver? It's almost as if someone with some power doesn't want it to happen.

Tesla does both - they built what they thought had the best chance of selling right now and it happens to be something they could realistically sell to people with disposable income who just want something cool. As bad as this is going to sound, they are initially selling them in the land of the Hollywood nut balls who happen to have a save-the-world mentality, the desire to differentiate themselves, and lots of extra cash. They sold out the entire first model year before the first one was produced.

So far, the infrastructure to support electric cars hasn't been feasible and the performance of those cars has been dismal. I think it's all about timing. I've been saying it for as long as these threads have been going that people will not make a change until gasoline prices are so high that it's truly painful OR until a reasonable alternative to gasoline cars is affordable enough to make the switch. You cannot force a change. The government can mandate that car companies produce a certain number of low emissions cars but they can't force people to buy them (except fleets which certainly don't want to take on the extra expense and will fight it). With low performing hybrids costing $8-10k more than a similar gasoline car they aren't going to start a mass migration and they aren't going to be adopted by cash-strapped families. However, prices will drop as production increases and technology improves. I can see the major hurdle for all-electric cars as having enough battery capacity to run air conditioning, five in-seat TVs, a DVD player, Xbox, navigation, On-Star, cell phones, and a sound system while sitting in traffic in a van with the kids.

Troy