Becoming Illegal (Actual letter from an Iowa resident and sent to his senator)

[Shakey]

My Boss (an American citizen) sent me this today for a laugh.   



          The Honorable Tom Harkin
           731 Hart Senate Office Building
           Phone (202) 224 3254
           Washington DC, 20510

Dear Senator Harkin,

   As a native Iowan and excellent customer of the Internal  Revenue Service, I am writing to ask for your assistance. I have contacted the Department of Homeland Security in an effort to determine the process for becoming an illegal alien and they referred me to you.

   My primary reason for wishing to change my status from U.S. Citizen to illegal stems from the bill which was recently passed by the Senate and for which you voted. If my understanding of this bill's provisions is accurate, as an illegal alien who has been in the United States for five years, all I need to do to become a citizen is to pay a $2,000 fine and income taxes for three of the last five years. I know a good deal when I see one and I am anxious to get
the process started before everyone figures it out.
    Simply put, those of us who have been here legally have had to pay taxes every year so I'm excited about the prospect of avoiding two years of taxes in return for paying a $2,000 fine. Is there any way  that I can  apply to be illegal retroactively? This would yield an excellent result for me and my family because we paid heavy taxes in 2004 and 2005.

   Additionally, as an illegal I could begin using the local emergency room as my primary health care provider. Once I have stopped paying premiums for medical insurance, my accountant figures I could save almost $10,000 a year.

   Another benefit in gaining illegal status would be that my daughter would receive preferential treatment relative to her law school applications, as well as "in-state" tuition rates for many colleges throughout the United States for my son.

   Lastly, I understand that illegal status would relieve me of the burden of renewing my driver's license and making those burdensome car insurance premiums. This is very important to me given that I still have college age children driving my car.

   If you would provide me with an outline of the process to become illegal (retroactively if possible) and copies of the necessary forms, I would be most appreciative.
Thank you for your assistance.

           Your Loyal Constituent,
           


           Burlington, IA

Get your Forms (NOW)!! Call your Internal Revenue Service  1-800-289-1040.

Please pass this onto your friends so they can save on this great offer!!!!

[bull]

There's no doubt being an illegal alien is a good deal. Some states have added benefits on top of what's mentioned in the email. In most cases in this country the most well-off people are either really rich or really poor and it's the middle class that gets screwed.

[41husk]

Sign me up

[Ponch ®]

There's no doubt being an illegal alien is a good deal.

[Charger_Fan]

That's funny, I wonder what sort of reply (if any) the author got in return?

There's no doubt being an illegal alien is a good deal.

What...it's true.

[red72chrgr]

I wanna sign up too!

[RallyeMike]

I have not heard of this tax change, but the rest of the letter is just pure stupidity:

He can drop his health insurance and use the emergency room as his care provider anytime he wants.
He can let his drivers license expire any time.
He can drop his car insurance any time he wants.

But why would you want to subject yourself to the same jeopardy as illegals?

I have never heard of any program where being an illegal alien get people preferential treatment to get into college. Skin color - yes. Economic - yes. Not simply because you are an illegal alien.

No need to write the govt anyhow. You can renounce your citizenship anytime you please, so go ahead and sign up ! http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_776.html

the most well-off people are either really rich or really poor and it's the middle class that gets screwed.

My guess is 10 out of 10 people will take "middle class and screwed" over "most well-off and really poor". The really poor are not the most well off, just the most helped. Poverty blows.




   

[nh_mopar_fan]

The newly elected leftist moonbat governor of the People Republic of Massachusetts has proposed in-state tuition for illegal aliens that want to attend state colleges.

[RD]

The newly elected leftist moonbat governor of the People Republic of Massachusetts has proposed in-state tuition for illegal aliens that want to attend state colleges.

In Kansas, a very conservative state, but proportionately has a high percentage of illegal immigrants, there is a law on the books that allows for illegal immigrants who have attended Kansas public schools to obtain resident tuition rates for college if they go ahead and sign an affidavit stating that they will attempt to become citizens of the United States.

So my argument is this.  A person from Missouri, who is a citizen, who has either paid taxes or their parents have paid taxes are going to be charged out of state tuition for their legal child to attend school in Kansas, but the illegal immigrant does not have to?  Sorry, I understand to a degree that this is to help them out, but it boils down to this, it is not fair that those who are here legally are penalized for their citizenship.

They should just charge everyone the same rate in my eyes if this travesty is to continue.

[RallyeMike]

The newly elected leftist moonbat governor of the People Republic of Massachusetts has proposed in-state tuition for illegal aliens that want to attend state colleges.

... and I see was voted down heartily.

In Kansas, a very conservative state, but proportionately has a high percentage of illegal immigrants, there is a law on the books that allows for illegal immigrants who have attended Kansas public schools to obtain resident tuition rates for college if they go ahead and sign an affidavit stating that they will attempt to become citizens of the United States.

Thanks for the info, though it's still not preferential treatment over Kansas residents or others from out of State. They are being treated the same as every other US citzens (not that I entirely agree with this concept). The policy of pushing them toward legal citizenship matches the currect efforts of the US Govt. to get illegals, legal.

Illegals support the US economy in a significant way. Reality is that the US Govt is not likely to ever put in place an effective program to systematically find and toss illegals out because it hurts the economy, and a poor economy loses elections. Giving illegals equal opportunities to be educated and helping to assure they are self-sufficient is, in the long run, good for all of us. I don't want to have to support them.

[bull]

The economy has nothing to do with it if you're talking about politics. The Republicans turn a blind eye because they like providing their buddies with cheap labor and the Dems turn a blind eye because they want the votes. It's has everything to do with those bozos staying in power and nothing to do with the overall good of this nation. If it helps the economy (which I don't think it does) it's at most an incidental benefit, not a purposeful one.

The reason I think it doesn't help the economy at all is because there's no plan to stop the inflow. Fine, keep putting illegals through college on our dime and there'll be four waiting in line for every one that graduates. We can't continue to support the illegals who are already here without stopping the influx of those who cross the border demanding the same treatment. Right now it's a viscous cycle with no end in sight and no one has the ball$ to stop it because they are only worried about themselves and their political careers.

Also, does anyone else think it's at all odd that the word "illegal" gets thrown around in topics like this and it means virtually nothing? It seems to me that this is the only "crime" that gets you rewards instead of punishment.

[RD]

Also, does anyone else think it's at all odd that the word "illegal" gets thrown around in topics like this and it means virtually nothing? It seems to me that this is the only "crime" that gets you rewards instead of punishment.

no argument with that statement, its totally true!

[RallyeMike]

The reason I think it doesn't help the economy at all is because there's no plan to stop the inflow.

Cheap labor certainly benefits some of the measures of the economy. Population growth helps drive many of the economic indicators. Yesterday it was reported that they estimate 25% of the construction industry forces nationwide are illegal aliens. What would happen to the economy of they were somehow able to boot them all out tomorrow?

The is no doubt that the whole mess is caused by politicians.

[Ponch ®]

. Fine, keep putting illegals through college on our dime and there'll be four waiting in line for every one that graduates.   

So you're afraid of what a bunch of college educated Mexicans would do? I don't see what the big deal is. As far as illegals "not paying taxes", its not like when they go to McDonald's and order a Big Mac Value Meal they say "oh, I'm illegal...I don't have to pay the extra 40 cents for the sales tax".

Illegals aren't bad for the economy, for reasons that RallyeMike already explained. It's also a myth that illegals take the jobs from Americans - if it was, the unemployment rate would be at around 15-20%, not 6% (the same as it was back in 1955, coincidentally). Yeah, they do the work for less money, but that's capitalism. Next time YOU want to build a house, I wonder if you would be willing to pay an extra hundred grand or so in labor costs just so you can say you hired good ol' boy American workers who, by the way, will also demand benefits, overtime pay, and paid vacations.

There is no risk of being overrun by illegals either - most either go back to their countries after a few years or stay and eventually legalize themselves, move up in the socio-economic ladder (thanks to the opportunities that this great land offers us), and become productive members of society. It really all boils down to good old fashioned bigotry and xenophobia - Americans (of any race, for that matter) tend to have a fear of accepting those that don't "look like us". First it was the Chinese in the mid 1800's, then the Irish, and then the Italians. Now it's the Mexicans.  But we'll get over it.

[chargerboy69]

. Fine, keep putting illegals through college on our dime and there'll be four waiting in line for every one that graduates.   

So you're afraid of what a bunch of college educated Mexicans would do? I don't see what the big deal is.

The big deal for me is that I am paying for it. And it is for someone who is here in this country illegally. I did not have anyone pay for my eduacation, my wife did not have someone pay for hers. If paying for someone elses college education does not bother you, then I can foward $30,000 of my wifes student loan bills to you.

[Shakey]

First it was the Chinese in the mid 1800's, then the Irish, and then the Italians. Now it's the Mexicans.  But we'll get over it.

Let's not forget about the Indians that greeted the Mayflower.   

I think nowadays it's the Muslims that are the target of fear.  I don't know why.   

Like all immigrants, from way back when up until today and into the future, you're gonna get good ones that are willing to work and support their family and you're gonna get bad ones that are gonna find a way to milk the system.  It's not really fair to paint them all with broad strokes of the brush.

[bull]

. Fine, keep putting illegals through college on our dime and there'll be four waiting in line for every one that graduates.   

So you're afraid of what a bunch of college educated Mexicans would do? I don't see what the big deal is. As far as illegals "not paying taxes", its not like when they go to McDonald's and order a Big Mac Value Meal they say "oh, I'm illegal...I don't have to pay the extra 40 cents for the sales tax".

Illegals aren't bad for the economy, for reasons that RallyeMike already explained. It's also a myth that illegals take the jobs from Americans - if it was, the unemployment rate would be at around 15-20%, not 6% (the same as it was back in 1955, coincidentally). Yeah, they do the work for less money, but that's capitalism. Next time YOU want to build a house, I wonder if you would be willing to pay an extra hundred grand or so in labor costs just so you can say you hired good ol' boy American workers who, by the way, will also demand benefits, overtime pay, and paid vacations.

There is no risk of being overrun by illegals either - most either go back to their countries after a few years or stay and eventually legalize themselves, move up in the socio-economic ladder (thanks to the opportunities that this great land offers us), and become productive members of society. It really all boils down to good old fashioned bigotry and xenophobia - Americans (of any race, for that matter) tend to have a fear of accepting those that don't "look like us". First it was the Chinese in the mid 1800's, then the Irish, and then the Italians. Now it's the Mexicans.  But we'll get over it.

First of all, I never said one thing about Mexicans. There are probably just as many illegal Romanians and Russians where I live as there are Mexicans. And as you hinted at, a sales tax is imposed on everyone who buys anything, legal resident or not (except in Oregon). If you want to talk about income tax we can have a discussion.

The reason I said they are harming the economy is because those who have jobs and pay taxes have to pay for the services the illegals use. Someone has to pay and it all comes out of our pockets through higher medical insurance costs, higher taxes, etc. Your example of other races who really did face racism does not hold water because back then those people were forced to carry their own weight. I'm sure they got some charity through friendly neighbors, and maybe the govt. even kicked in some back then, but I can guarantee you there was nothing available then like the govt. infrastructure that perpetuates poverty and dependence present today.

The problem crosses all the racial boundaries but it boils down to the fact that a certain percentage of the population does not want help getting out of their problem situation. IMO the Mexicans on the whole seem to work harder than any of them to get ahead and that's good. I just wish they would do it legally and I wish the laws were enforced. There's plenty of room here for everyone, so why can't they just wait their turn, calm the F down, fill out the paperwork like everyone else does and go through the proper channels? You don't see people jumping over the desk at the DMV to get their license renewed before everyone else. Why do we let it happen at the border?

I suppose it's possible that the illegals are confused by the setup here in the US. On the one hand they see and hear about all the govt aide available to them and the fact that there is no actual punishment for coming here illegally and setting up camp. But once they get here they experience all the animosity of those who actually have to pay for their services from our middle class pockets. Therefore, dare I say the politicians are out of touch with those who elected them? Yes. And that brings me back to my previous post where I wrote that "It has everything to do with those bozos staying in power and nothing to do with the overall good of this nation." They don't care if we have to pay for illegal immigrants as long as they stay in power.

[RD]

. Fine, keep putting illegals through college on our dime and there'll be four waiting in line for every one that graduates.   

So you're afraid of what a bunch of college educated Mexicans would do? I don't see what the big deal is. As far as illegals "not paying taxes", its not like when they go to McDonald's and order a Big Mac Value Meal they say "oh, I'm illegal...I don't have to pay the extra 40 cents for the sales tax".

Illegals aren't bad for the economy, for reasons that RallyeMike already explained. It's also a myth that illegals take the jobs from Americans - if it was, the unemployment rate would be at around 15-20%, not 6% (the same as it was back in 1955, coincidentally). Yeah, they do the work for less money, but that's capitalism. Next time YOU want to build a house, I wonder if you would be willing to pay an extra hundred grand or so in labor costs just so you can say you hired good ol' boy American workers who, by the way, will also demand benefits, overtime pay, and paid vacations.

There is no risk of being overrun by illegals either - most either go back to their countries after a few years or stay and eventually legalize themselves, move up in the socio-economic ladder (thanks to the opportunities that this great land offers us), and become productive members of society. It really all boils down to good old fashioned bigotry and xenophobia - Americans (of any race, for that matter) tend to have a fear of accepting those that don't "look like us". First it was the Chinese in the mid 1800's, then the Irish, and then the Italians. Now it's the Mexicans.  But we'll get over it.

I can tell you that I am neither xenophobic or a bigot, what I am is a taxpaying citizen.  The question is basically broken down to this, either you are a legal citizen or illegal.  That is it.  There are many immigrant worker programs that are used in the U.S. to bring in individuals on work visas to handle the positions that, said, capitalism makes available.  Yes, these jobs are needed, but by God you do not have to be illegal to get them.  Those on work visas are here legally, they have gone through the system, are accounted for, and kept track of.

This is the way the system was developed and this is the way it should be maintained.  By us admitting to the illegal immigrants status in this country and desensitizing ourselves to the concept of their existence within OUR society, we overlook their criminal actions and see other ways (through rose colored glasses) to maintain a sense of mediocrity and inaction.

We all talk about how the illegal immigrants are a drain on our system, and yes they are.  They do not pay income taxes, hence, I do not care how much sales tax is gained by them buying bread at wal-mart a month, it will not equate to how much they could be providing this country through the taxing of their income.

They are ineligible for health insurance due to their illegal status, hence the states pay for healthcare costs for these individuals when they are unable to pay the bills, I.E. THE CITIZENS OF THE UNITED STATES.

They will not have a 401K or a retirement plan, so when they are unable to work, they will again attempt to receive services through the local SRS agency, and again... the citizens will pay for it in some way shape or form.

Do they provide a service to our economy?  Yes, they do.  Can this service be accomplished legally?  Yes, it can.  Is it? NO.  And that is where I have a problem with illegal immigrants.

[chargerboy69]

. Fine, keep putting illegals through college on our dime and there'll be four waiting in line for every one that graduates.   

Illegals aren't bad for the economy, for reasons that RallyeMike already explained.

Really? I just don't get that one. We pay for their education. We pay for their welfare services.  In some cases we pay for them to collect Social Security, which is amazing to me. We pay for them to be in our legal system. We pay for them to be in jails. We pay for their medical care.

And when some do not pay Federal Income Tax, and then most send their money back to Mexico, yea, thats not so bad. . 

[CharlieCharger]

In Houston..there is a mess of hospitals that are in bad shape because a MAJORITY of illegals are using the E.R system and NOT paying..and obviously don't have health insurance, for silly reasons of bringing there kid in for a stuffy nose or a scraped elbow..I've seen it with my own eyes..so anybody wants who to argue my statement can come down and stay with me for a week and we will sit in the E.R..It's sad some one with chest pains or something serious has to wait in the E.R because some kid has a runny nose..In Houston, Illegals are not MINORITIES..Tax paying citizens are.

In before the lock 

[Ponch ®]

There's plenty of room here for everyone, so why can't they just wait their turn, calm the F down, fill out the paperwork like everyone else does and go through the proper channels? You don't see people jumping over the desk at the DMV to get their license renewed before everyone else. Why do we let it happen at the border?

That's easier said than done. First, it's not exactly cheap to obtain a visa or "the paperwork", and if you do somehow manage to scrounge up enough money to do it, you have to wait months (or years) to do it. When you're desperate to feed your family and coming here is the only option, I doubt you have time to wait. Do you think they like coming here illegally? I bet if it was up to them they'd do it legally but it just isn't that simple. I know quite a lot of illegals, and most of them live in fear of getting caught, deported, separated from their families. They like the opportunity that this country offers, but its like living in a guilded cage. You think they don't pay income tax? Most of them have to get fake SSN's to get a job (unless you're a day laborer), and their employers pay taxes on them. They pay into the Social Security system and they'll never see any benefit from it. Hell, I 'was born here  and every pay check is money taken out for Social Security, and I will never see any benefit from it either, the way that system is all screwed up.

Really? I just don't get that one. We pay for their education. We pay for their welfare services.  In some cases we pay for them to collect Social Security, which is amazing to me. We pay for them to be in our legal system. We pay for them to be in jails. We pay for their medical care.

And when some do not pay Federal Income Tax, and then send most of their money back to Mexico, yea, thats not so bad. . 

You also pay for the education, welfare, and disability benefits of Americans who "can't work" because they broke a finger 20 years ago. Let's kick them out too.

That money that goes to Mexico ends up being spent on buying goods - most of which are a product of American manufacturing or distribution.

[Vainglory, Esq.]

. Fine, keep putting illegals through college on our dime and there'll be four waiting in line for every one that graduates.   

So you're afraid of what a bunch of college educated Mexicans would do? I don't see what the big deal is. As far as illegals "not paying taxes", its not like when they go to McDonald's and order a Big Mac Value Meal they say "oh, I'm illegal...I don't have to pay the extra 40 cents for the sales tax".

Illegals aren't bad for the economy, for reasons that RallyeMike already explained. It's also a myth that illegals take the jobs from Americans - if it was, the unemployment rate would be at around 15-20%, not 6% (the same as it was back in 1955, coincidentally). Yeah, they do the work for less money, but that's capitalism. Next time YOU want to build a house, I wonder if you would be willing to pay an extra hundred grand or so in labor costs just so you can say you hired good ol' boy American workers who, by the way, will also demand benefits, overtime pay, and paid vacations.

There is no risk of being overrun by illegals either - most either go back to their countries after a few years or stay and eventually legalize themselves, move up in the socio-economic ladder (thanks to the opportunities that this great land offers us), and become productive members of society. It really all boils down to good old fashioned bigotry and xenophobia - Americans (of any race, for that matter) tend to have a fear of accepting those that don't "look like us". First it was the Chinese in the mid 1800's, then the Irish, and then the Italians. Now it's the Mexicans.  But we'll get over it.

Good God man!  Did you finally see the light?  Whatever happened to "shoot 'em at the border"?

[Ponch ®]

. Fine, keep putting illegals through college on our dime and there'll be four waiting in line for every one that graduates.   

So you're afraid of what a bunch of college educated Mexicans would do? I don't see what the big deal is. As far as illegals "not paying taxes", its not like when they go to McDonald's and order a Big Mac Value Meal they say "oh, I'm illegal...I don't have to pay the extra 40 cents for the sales tax".

Illegals aren't bad for the economy, for reasons that RallyeMike already explained. It's also a myth that illegals take the jobs from Americans - if it was, the unemployment rate would be at around 15-20%, not 6% (the same as it was back in 1955, coincidentally). Yeah, they do the work for less money, but that's capitalism. Next time YOU want to build a house, I wonder if you would be willing to pay an extra hundred grand or so in labor costs just so you can say you hired good ol' boy American workers who, by the way, will also demand benefits, overtime pay, and paid vacations.

There is no risk of being overrun by illegals either - most either go back to their countries after a few years or stay and eventually legalize themselves, move up in the socio-economic ladder (thanks to the opportunities that this great land offers us), and become productive members of society. It really all boils down to good old fashioned bigotry and xenophobia - Americans (of any race, for that matter) tend to have a fear of accepting those that don't "look like us". First it was the Chinese in the mid 1800's, then the Irish, and then the Italians. Now it's the Mexicans.  But we'll get over it.

Good God man!  Did you finally see the light?  Whatever happened to "shoot 'em at the border"?

The whole controversy over the last 2 years or so prompted me to become more informed on the issue. Before my beliefs were reactionary and uneducated. 

[Vainglory, Esq.]

Congrats.  Welcome to the ranks of the enlightened.

[Ponch ®]

Congrats.  Welcome to the ranks of the enlightened.

Not that you'll be seeing me at one of those rallies in Downtown L.A. anytime soon though...

[bull]

Congrats.  Welcome to the ranks of the enlightened.

Great. Now Mr. White Bread Yuppie chimes in wtih his feigned, token "enlightenment" statement. Speaking of deadbeats, how much have you contributed to a working society and/or paid in income taxes? 

Relax. I'm kidding.

[chargerboy69]

You also pay for the education, welfare, and disability benefits of Americans who "can't work" because they broke a finger 20 years ago. Let's kick them out too.

That money that goes to Mexico ends up being spent on buying goods - most of which are a product of American manufacturing or distribution.

That is true, I have a POS cousin that is doing that same thing. The lazy bastard is to lazy to work, so he sits on his ass while my taxes support him. The big difference is he is here legally. These people we are talking about are not.

[Ponch ®]

  The big difference is he is here legally. These people we are talking about are not.

Legal status does not change the fact that its wrong. Your entire argument is based on the premise that you don't want to support someone who doesn't contribute anything back in return. What's the difference?

[chargerboy69]

That's easier said than done. First, it's not exactly cheap to obtain a visa or "the paperwork", and if you do somehow manage to scrounge up enough money to do it, you have to wait months (or years) to do it.

I don't care how hard it is, it is the law. My Grandparents came from Germany during WWII, and they had to go through the same damn thing. In my Grandparents case, it was probably worse since they were German, and we were at war with them at the time. Could they make the process easier and quicker? I am sure they could. But for now this is the way it is. And if you want to come into this country, this is the way it needs to be done.

[Ponch ®]

That's easier said than done. First, it's not exactly cheap to obtain a visa or "the paperwork", and if you do somehow manage to scrounge up enough money to do it, you have to wait months (or years) to do it.

I don't care how hard it is, it is the law. My Grandparents came from Germany during WWII, and they had to go through the same damn thing. In my Grandparents case, it was probably worse since they were German, and we were at war with them at the time. Could they make the process easier and quicker? I am sure they could. But for now this is the way it is. And if you want to come into this country, this is the way it needs to be done.

Again, easier said than done. It all changes when your children are hungry and you're desperate to find a way to feed them.

[chargerboy69]

  The big difference is he is here legally. These people we are talking about are not.

Legal status does not change the fact that its wrong. Your entire argument is based on the premise that you don't want to support someone who doesn't contribute anything back in return. What's the difference?

As much as I hate to admit it, (because I loath my cousin) he has a right to these handouts he is getting from the Government. He is a legal US citizen.

Illegals are not US citizens, and do not have the right to receive these benefits the same as everyone else.

[Ponch ®]

  The big difference is he is here legally. These people we are talking about are not.

Legal status does not change the fact that its wrong. Your entire argument is based on the premise that you don't want to support someone who doesn't contribute anything back in return. What's the difference?

As much as I hate to admit it, (because I loath my cousin) he has a right to these handouts he is getting from the Government. He is a legal US citizen.

Illegals are not US citizens, and do not have the right to receive these benefits the same as everyone else.

See, contrary to popular belief, the amount of 'handouts' that illegals get is proportionatelly miniscule in comparison with what legal US Citizens suckle off. Most of them are here to work. And when they do receive these handouts (welfare, medical, etc) the recipients are their children, who for the most part are legal, US born citizens - like your cousin.

[bull]

Well, two wrongs don't make a right.

I don't see anything wrong with helping legal, able-bodied residents out temporarily but to create an establishment of perpetual dependence does no one any long term good. If they are permanently disabled or elderly legal residents that's a different story, partly because they put something into the system and should get something out, even if it's more than they put in. I knew a freak once who basically proposed that all "retards and old people" should be shot once they can no longer contribute so I really don't think my ideals are extreme.

But why does this "temporary" help have to be mandatory through taxation? There are thousands of private organizations out there that offer help such as the Salvation Army. If I weren't taxed so much I would definitely give more to charity and the private charitable organizations do a much better job of handling poverty than the govt IMO.

[Vainglory, Esq.]

  The big difference is he is here legally. These people we are talking about are not.

Legal status does not change the fact that its wrong. Your entire argument is based on the premise that you don't want to support someone who doesn't contribute anything back in return. What's the difference?

As much as I hate to admit it, (because I loath my cousin) he has a right to these handouts he is getting from the Government. He is a legal US citizen.

Illegals are not US citizens, and do not have the right to receive these benefits the same as everyone else.

That's actually not quite accurate.  If there is a statutory right to a handout, it cannot be removed without due process, so yes, your cousin does have a real right under the law.  However, if the same or another statute provides for a handout to an illegal, it is just as legitimate, all things being equal.  After all, if we were to disregard the statutory and constitutional rights of non-citizens, we could also kill them with impunity; and since not even Ponch is shooting them at the border anymore, that's clearly not an acceptable solution...

[NHCharger]

but that's capitalism. Next time YOU want to build a house, I wonder if you would be willing to pay an extra hundred grand or so in labor costs just so you can say you hired good ol' boy American workers who, by the way, will also demand benefits, overtime pay, and paid vacations.

Unless you have built houses for a living I'm not sure your qualified to make that statement. I built houses for 20+ years and good carpenters are some of the most under paid workers in America. $20.00-25.00/hour isn't much money these days. The problem boils down to two different dreams. The average American wants a three bedroom house with a two car garage and a 71 Charger in the garage (OK I made the last one up). The average immigrant construction worker is just happy to be working for half of what the American worker is and lives with four or five other immigrants to make ends meet. I worked with two immigrant painters from Thialand who lived with nine other immigrants in a two bedroom apartment.
I'm currently a job super for a commercial construction company. The language barrier is a constant problem. I have to speak English, French Canadian and Spanish. I have enough trouble with just English. What I have seen is the immigrants who attempt or are learning to speak English do a far superior job than the one who don't.
We have just as many white trash welfare bums abusing the system every way they can. The entire welfare system needs reform, not just the immigrant policies.

[RD]

i guess this entire debate can be forgotten if Mexico, and its citizens, would just correct their system instead of leeching off of ours.  If the U.S. would just had made them states in 1848, we would never had to worry about this today

[Charger_Fan]

Damned fine plan, let's jut take over Mexico & put the wall around Washington DC to keep the pond scum in!   I've always wanted to live in Cabo anyway.

[Ponch ®]

i guess this entire debate can be forgotten if Mexico, and its citizens, would just correct their system instead of leeching off of ours. 

Yes, and Mexico's system would be a lot easier to correct if every American high school and college kid stops buying weed and coke that only makes Mexican drug lords richer and gives them more power to corrupt Mexican authorities.

[hemihead]

i guess this entire debate can be forgotten if Mexico, and its citizens, would just correct their system instead of leeching off of ours.  If the U.S. would just had made them states in 1848, we would never had to worry about this today

I think this is the key here.These people go to protest marches carrying the flag of the country they came from saying they want to be U.S. citizens.They want to keep speaking their native language while here but want to be citizens here.Doesn't make sense to me.
I think that if they exerted the same amount of effort in their native country that they use to get here and stay here then their country would be better and they wouldn't need to come here.

[RD]

i guess this entire debate can be forgotten if Mexico, and its citizens, would just correct their system instead of leeching off of ours. 

Yes, and Mexico's system would be a lot easier to correct if every American high school and college kid stops buying weed and coke that only makes Mexican drug lords richer and gives them more power to corrupt Mexican authorities.

so its the american's fault that mexico is the way it is... wow... I never thought of that one.  Damn... we made mexico the shit hole it is today, not them.  Might as well say we are still shipping them blankets laced with smallpox. 

[bull]

i guess this entire debate can be forgotten if Mexico, and its citizens, would just correct their system instead of leeching off of ours. 

Yes, and Mexico's system would be a lot easier to correct if every American high school and college kid stops buying weed and coke that only makes Mexican drug lords richer and gives them more power to corrupt Mexican authorities.

You're kidding, right? That's the lamest bunch of crap I've heard in a long time. Do you really believe what you wrote here?

[Charger_Fan]

Yes, and Mexico's system would be a lot easier to correct if every American high school and college kid stops buying weed and coke that only makes Mexican drug lords richer and gives them more power to corrupt Mexican authorities.

Silver? Is that you??

[Ponch ®]

i guess this entire debate can be forgotten if Mexico, and its citizens, would just correct their system instead of leeching off of ours. 

Yes, and Mexico's system would be a lot easier to correct if every American high school and college kid stops buying weed and coke that only makes Mexican drug lords richer and gives them more power to corrupt Mexican authorities.

You're kidding, right? That's the lamest bunch of crap I've heard in a long time. Do you really believe what you wrote here?

No, but its just as fantastical as  some of the crap you guys are writing. Had to see if anyone would bite.

[Charger_Fan]

That's better. 

[Vainglory, Esq.]

i guess this entire debate can be forgotten if Mexico, and its citizens, would just correct their system instead of leeching off of ours. 

Yes, and Mexico's system would be a lot easier to correct if every American high school and college kid stops buying weed and coke that only makes Mexican drug lords richer and gives them more power to corrupt Mexican authorities.

You're kidding, right? That's the lamest bunch of crap I've heard in a long time. Do you really believe what you wrote here?

No, but its just as fantastical as  some of the crap you guys are writing. Had to see if anyone would bite.

Hell, I'll bite and more.  Let's just legalize the damn drugs and get it over with, shall we?

[bull]

i guess this entire debate can be forgotten if Mexico, and its citizens, would just correct their system instead of leeching off of ours. 

Yes, and Mexico's system would be a lot easier to correct if every American high school and college kid stops buying weed and coke that only makes Mexican drug lords richer and gives them more power to corrupt Mexican authorities.

You're kidding, right? That's the lamest bunch of crap I've heard in a long time. Do you really believe what you wrote here?

No, but its just as fantastical as  some of the crap you guys are writing. Had to see if anyone would bite.

Fantastical? There's your $2 word of the day.

Seriously now, you really think legitimate complaints about financially supporting illegal immigrants is on the same level as the goofy nonsense you wrote above?

[Ponch ®]

i guess this entire debate can be forgotten if Mexico, and its citizens, would just correct their system instead of leeching off of ours. 

Yes, and Mexico's system would be a lot easier to correct if every American high school and college kid stops buying weed and coke that only makes Mexican drug lords richer and gives them more power to corrupt Mexican authorities.

You're kidding, right? That's the lamest bunch of crap I've heard in a long time. Do you really believe what you wrote here?

No, but its just as fantastical as  some of the crap you guys are writing. Had to see if anyone would bite.

Fantastical? There's your $2 word of the day.

Seriously now, you really think legitimate complaints about financially supporting illegal immigrants is on the same level as the goofy nonsense you wrote above?

You  claim they're legitimate.

[bull]

I claim it's legitimate because it is legitimate. Dude, the philosophical BS doesn't work too well when facts are involved and the fact is that the working people of this country are paying taxes and insurance premiums that support illegal immigrants.

Are you saying that's not true or that it's not a legitimate thing to complain about? If so would you mind if I move in to your house, sleep on your couch, eat your food, use your shower and drive your '06 thingy without paying you? I'll get a job and pay sales tax but you'll never see a dime of it. Then, after a while I'll start bitching about having to sleep on your couch and protest in your front lawn until you give up your bedroom.

[Ponch ®]

Are you saying that's not true or that it's not a legitimate thing to complain about? If so would you mind if I move in to your house, sleep on your couch, eat your food, use your shower and drive your '06 thingy without paying you? I'll get a job and pay sales tax but you'll never see a dime of it. Then, after a while I'll start bitching about having to sleep on your couch and protest in your front lawn until you give up your bedroom.

Here we go with the "move in to your house" analogy. Can y'all find a new one already? It doesnt even work...apples and oranges.

[RallyeMike]

What are the real tax costs, insurance premium increase costs, etc. to support illegals vs. the savings of cheaper goods and services delivered to the average American and overall benefit to the US economy? It's a complicated question that would probably yield some interesting answers. 

As a hard working US citizen (too damn hard!) who works in one of the industries that reportedly employs so many illegals, and working in a low income community for the last 3 years where most illegals live, my observation is that they work their asses off, and in general keep a pretty low profile when it comes to coming in contact with any govt. authority.

[Lowprofile]

The last time I checked, we are still a sovereign Nation who is governed by the rule of Law.

Common sense tells us all that with between 12 and 20 million Illegals [of many different nationalities] living & working among us, we have to come up with a fair & just plan to get these people on the books. Maybe then law enforcement will be able "weed" out the criminal element who hide among those who wish to become legal citizens, and send them back to their country of origin. We can then start the process of getting these folks on the "straight & narrow". Should those who crossed illegally have to pay some kind of penalty?? Thats way above my pay grade.

On the other side of this argument, I feel that we should toughen up the borders, build that damn fence, hire more patrol officers, and take the fight to those who try to cross into this, our country, with the narcotics that poison our citizens and destroy our families, and to those who deal in the trafficking of human souls. The damage that these despicable pieces of dreck cause to this country, and to those unfortunate souls who pay them with their very last dollar with the hope of finding a better life for themselves & their families, is a humanitarian tragedy.

Shame on us all If we as a nation can't do something about this.

JMHO..........

[hemihead]

The last time I checked, we are still a sovereign Nation who is governed by the rule of Law.

Common sense tells us all that with between 12 and 20 million Illegals [of many different nationalities] living & working among us, we have to come up with a fair & just plan to get these people on the books. Maybe then law enforcement will be able "weed" out the criminal element who hide among those who wish to become legal citizens, and send them back to their country of origin. We can then start the process of getting these folks on the "straight & narrow". Should those who crossed illegally have to pay some kind of penalty?? Thats way above my pay grade.

On the other side of this argument, I feel that we should toughen up the borders, build that damn fence, hire more patrol officers, and take the fight to those who try to cross into this, our country, with the narcotics that poison our citizens and destroy our families, and to those who deal in the trafficking of human souls. The damage that these despicable pieces of dreck cause to this country, and to those unfortunate souls who pay them with their very last dollar with the hope of finding a better life for themselves & their families, is a humanitarian tragedy.

Shame on us all If we as a nation can't do something about this.

JMHO..........

I agree with you in some part but these are ILLEGAL immigrants.There are laws in place.They should all be rounded up,sent back to their countries and do the paperwork and red tape.Especially since 9/11.And just because they are here already they want to be allowed to bring their entire families here too? Pffftttt.

[Ponch ®]

The last time I checked, we are still a sovereign Nation who is governed by the rule of Law.

Common sense tells us all that with between 12 and 20 million Illegals [of many different nationalities] living & working among us, we have to come up with a fair & just plan to get these people on the books. Maybe then law enforcement will be able "weed" out the criminal element who hide among those who wish to become legal citizens, and send them back to their country of origin. We can then start the process of getting these folks on the "straight & narrow". Should those who crossed illegally have to pay some kind of penalty?? Thats way above my pay grade.

On the other side of this argument, I feel that we should toughen up the borders, build that damn fence, hire more patrol officers, and take the fight to those who try to cross into this, our country, with the narcotics that poison our citizens and destroy our families, and to those who deal in the trafficking of human souls. The damage that these despicable pieces of dreck cause to this country, and to those unfortunate souls who pay them with their very last dollar with the hope of finding a better life for themselves & their families, is a humanitarian tragedy.

Shame on us all If we as a nation can't do something about this.

JMHO..........

I agree with you in some part but these are ILLEGAL immigrants.There are laws in place.They should all be rounded up,sent back to their countries and do the paperwork and red tape.Especially since 9/11.And just because they are here already they want to be allowed to bring their entire families here too? Pffftttt.

See? Everybody says "i have nothinga against 'these people', but they are here illegaly so I hate them" Then as soon as someone mentions amnesty, you would think we're changing our name to  The United States of Mexico (which, BTW, happens to be Mexico's official name). I still think it boils down to latent xenophobia and bigotry.

And still with that 9/11 crap. Like some drywaller named Pedro has any intention of bringing down  the Sears Tower. They build things, no destroy them. All of the 9/11 hijackers entered the U.S. legally, on student visas. In fact, that's how the majority of illegals get here.

And bull...after further thought...Ill tell you what. If you're willing to do all the shit jobs around my house that I think are beneath me to do - mow the lawn, take out the trash, cook my meals, clean the kitty litter box twice a day, scrub the toilets, mop the floors and vacuum the carpet, wash the dishes, and babysit my kids all for a couple of bucks a day - hell, you can even have the guest room to live in and drive the 74 (if ever get it fixed - though maybe I can put you to work on that too). I might even buy you some robitussin whenever you get a cough.

[Charger_Fan]

Something I thought of a while back...say we do give the illegals amnesty. After they've been declared American citizens, how long do you think they'll continue to be happy doing the "jobs nobody else wants to do", for meager pay? Probably not long...so then what do you think's gonna happen?

I'm guessing that suddenly they're gonna want to be more like average citizens & demand the same pay & bennies, then what? I suppose that after some painful growing pains, the economy will cease being artificially depressed & in a decade or so, things will be more in line with what the economy will actually support, with a hell of a lot more citizens making what they're truely worth.

The way I see it, the economy will have the same growing pains if we were to round up the illegals & ship 'em back. Suddenly employers will have to pay higher salaries (painful for a while) & those employees will soon spend more of their newfound money, making the business owners suddenly have higher earnings in the front end...AND, we won't have illegals here leeching off the system.
Maybe those freshly returned illegals, after seeing how green the grass is on the other side of the fence, will finally get pissed enough at their own government to overthrow the bastids & replace it with a government that works better! There's power in numbers & if they'd open their eyes, they could use that to their advantage.


Or am I just seeing golden images in the bottom of my beer glass?


Mojo, clean the litter box twice a day? What the hell are you feeding your cat?!?

[Rocky]

Anyone remember Operation Wetback?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Wetback

Other than changing the name, there is absolutly no reason this shouldn't be done today.

[RD]

Anyone remember Operation Wetback?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Wetback

Other than changing the name, there is absolutly no reason this shouldn't be done today.

I like it.

[edit] Operation
The operation began in California and Arizona and coordinated 1,075 Border Patrol agents along with state and local police agencies to mount an aggressive crackdown, going as far as police sweeps of Mexican-American neighborhoods and random stops and ID checks of "Mexican-looking" people in a region with many Native Americans and native Hispanics[citation needed]. Some 750 agents targeted agricultural areas with a goal of 1000 apprehensions a day. By the end of July, over 50,000 aliens were caught in the two states. Around 488,000 people fled the country for fear of being apprehended. By September, 80,000 had been taken into custody in Texas, and the INS estimates that 500,000-700,000 illegals had left Texas voluntarily. To discourage re-entry, buses and trains took many illegals deep within Mexico before being set free. Tens of thousands more were put aboard two hired ships, the Emancipation and the Mercurio. The ships ferried the aliens from Port Isabel, Texas, to Veracruz, Mexico, more than 500 miles (800 kilometers) south.


[edit] Result
Operation Wetback deported approximately 80,000 Mexican nationals in the space of almost a year, although local INS officials claimed that an additional 500,000-700,000 had fled to Mexico before the campaign began. The INS estimates rested on the claim that most undocumented people, fearing apprehension by the government, had voluntarily repatriated themselves before and during the operation.

[bull]

I have a question. What happens if a few white American kids are interested in studying agriculture in college and actually want to get a summer job picking lettuce or berries. Can they still do that or do they have to be bilingual to get that job these days? Would the migrant workers give them crap for taking their jobs away if they did get hired?

[RallyeMike]

I have a question. What happens if a few white American kids are interested in studying agriculture in college and actually want to get a summer job picking lettuce or berries.

[bull]

I have a question. What happens if a few white American kids are interested in studying agriculture in college and actually want to get a summer job picking lettuce or berries.

You don't think that's ever happened? You know, not every kid in this nation lives in a metro jungle like Seattle or LA and has his head up his a$$ 24/7 playing video games and smoking dope. Believe it or not there are actually young people who live on farms and enjoy that type of work and want to go to college to study it. So please spare me the patronization, k?

[hemihead]

The last time I checked, we are still a sovereign Nation who is governed by the rule of Law.

Common sense tells us all that with between 12 and 20 million Illegals [of many different nationalities] living & working among us, we have to come up with a fair & just plan to get these people on the books. Maybe then law enforcement will be able "weed" out the criminal element who hide among those who wish to become legal citizens, and send them back to their country of origin. We can then start the process of getting these folks on the "straight & narrow". Should those who crossed illegally have to pay some kind of penalty?? Thats way above my pay grade.

On the other side of this argument, I feel that we should toughen up the borders, build that damn fence, hire more patrol officers, and take the fight to those who try to cross into this, our country, with the narcotics that poison our citizens and destroy our families, and to those who deal in the trafficking of human souls. The damage that these despicable pieces of dreck cause to this country, and to those unfortunate souls who pay them with their very last dollar with the hope of finding a better life for themselves & their families, is a humanitarian tragedy.

Shame on us all If we as a nation can't do something about this.

JMHO..........

I agree with you in some part but these are ILLEGAL immigrants.There are laws in place.They should all be rounded up,sent back to their countries and do the paperwork and red tape.Especially since 9/11.And just because they are here already they want to be allowed to bring their entire families here too? Pffftttt.

See? Everybody says "i have nothinga against 'these people', but they are here illegaly so I hate them" Then as soon as someone mentions amnesty, you would think we're changing our name to  The United States of Mexico (which, BTW, happens to be Mexico's official name). I still think it boils down to latent xenophobia and bigotry.

And still with that 9/11 crap. Like some drywaller named Pedro has any intention of bringing down  the Sears Tower. They build things, no destroy them. All of the 9/11 hijackers entered the U.S. legally, on student visas. In fact, that's how the majority of illegals get here.

And bull...after further thought...Ill tell you what. If you're willing to do all the shit jobs around my house that I think are beneath me to do - mow the lawn, take out the trash, cook my meals, clean the kitty litter box twice a day, scrub the toilets, mop the floors and vacuum the carpet, wash the dishes, and babysit my kids all for a couple of bucks a day - hell, you can even have the guest room to live in and drive the 74 (if ever get it fixed - though maybe I can put you to work on that too). I might even buy you some robitussin whenever you get a cough.

Sorry you feel that 9/11 was crap and you have forgotten it so soon.The Gov. has already caught a few terrorists trying to get in from
the Mexico you seem to worship more than this country.And I don't hate anyone so don't play racist card , that's old.I just believe that this country was built on the ideas of equality and shouldn't that mean doing things the just and LEGAL way?That's why we make laws.

[hemigeno]

I don't mean to rain on anyone's parade, but this thread was toe-ing the line of getting locked a while back and it's only getting worse.  I think to keep things from spiralling out of control we'll put this issue to rest.