4 speed vs. Auto

[h76]

On a comparative condition 2nd generation charger,what $ value would you give a 4 speed charger over an automatic charger?
And would you overspend/overextend your budget to buy an available 4 speed(68,69,70) vs. Auto?

[Harlow]

If its not a rare or high dollar type charger, you could buy the auto and convert it to a 4 speed if you wanted, depending on the price difference between the two it might be cheaper to do the conversion. Again I would only do this if the car was lacking documentation or just not a very high dollar car. My 

- Scott

[72chargerSE]

It's no fun to stick it in drive and go....

...slap sticks always cracked me up....

I've walked away from Corvettes I've considered purchasing because they were automatics (bash me now)... I just have more fun with a standard transmission!

[h76]

Rust seems like the prevailing issue over anything in the other topics that have discussed values or WIW.
What I'm asking is if they are in the same condition-how  much more would you $ for 4 speed?

[supserdave]

I think atleast 10%........

[LL1 1967 Coronet]

I think you should expect to start with a 20% premium on a Charger....before the other things get factored in like the color, options, and most importantly the condition.  From a standpoint of being rare, you could even get higher than 20% because of sub-models, like '69 500's, Daytonas, and SE trim....and the unique body styles on later Chargers (like when SE's became their own body style).  Obviously, 4-speeds where not ordered by most people on the more expensive cars.

[WheresMyCharger]

I am in the market for a 69 Charger and a 4-speed is the only option it MUST have. If I had 2 identical Chargers to choose from, and the only difference was 4-speed or Auto, I would pay more for the 4-speed.

[Troy]

My guess will be 10-30% higher. I'd have to say it depends partially on the condition. A project car may have a much higher premium attached to it than a finished car (say $1,500 on a $5,000 car vs. $6,000 on a $30,000 car). There will be a higher difference on a rarer car so R/Ts will have a larger spread than 383 cars. I don't believe we are discussing Hemi cars here so that debate can rage on elsewhere. The funny thing is that the higher performance cars seemed to have a larger percentage built with the 4-speed but the premium you pay is disproportionate (man that's a weird word). For instance, almost 50% of Hemi cars were stick shift but only something like .004% of 383 2bbl cars.

Would I overextend my budget? Probably, but I'm not the best person to ask for advice there. I've never had to make that decision as my bigger problem has been finding an original 4-speed car in the first place.

Troy

[bull]

I wouldn't overextend my budget to buy a 4-speed Charger because I don't really prefer one trans over the other, but many people do. Basically a 4-speed car is worth more to the right person but not to someone whom it isn't a priority. I didn't really care which trans I got but when I did find my Charger it had a 4-speed and I was happy for it (more happy just to have one than anything). My main thing was that it have a floor console and I got that.

Now that I think about it I probably did pay more for mine because the seller was going by the Old Car Book or Gold Book (or something like that) which he considered to be an accurate resource for classic car values, and I'm sure most valuation resources would take that into consideration. I was just happy to find a half-decent BB '68 within 15 miles of my house so I bought it.

[HITMAN 149]

I wouldn't overextend my budget to buy a 4-speed Charger because I don't really prefer one trans over the other, but many people do. Basically a 4-speed car is worth more to the right person but not to someone whom it isn't a priority. I didn't really care which trans I got but when I did find my Charger it had a 4-speed and I was happy for it (more happy just to have one than anything). My main thing was that it have a floor console and I got that.

Now that I think about it I probably did pay more for mine because the seller was going by the Old Car Book or Gold Book (or something like that) which he considered to be an accurate resource for classic car values, and I'm sure most valuation resources would take that into consideration. I was just happy to find a half-decent BB '68 within 15 miles of my house so I bought it.

i agree w/ BULL.... i think most people would opt for a 4 spd...(like myself) but i think most people would also agree, the shape/condition of the car would outway the trans. just like BULL, i found a SOLID car (true r/t vin#) but not original motor..it was auto on floor w/ console!!!! and the price was RIGHT..esp for a true R/T.... compared to alot of other rust buckets i went to see.  so in my case the trans didn't matter...cause if i want i could just convert it later on!!!

[PocketThunder]

My old 55 Chevy was a 4 speed and it was a crap load of work to covert it over but it was so worth it every time I rowed through the gears.  My 68 I just finished is an automatic and its fun to drive but it sucks.  But my choices at the time were to rebuild my 727 for $500 or buy everything for a 4-speed conversion which is what about $5000 by the time I'm done.   http://www.keislerauto.com/mopar/transmissions/b-body_66-70-auto.asp

My C500 is an automatic and its going to get a manual conversion when the time comes.  I don't care how rare the car is. 

[LL1 1967 Coronet]

My C500 is an automatic and its going to get a manual conversion when the time comes.  I don't care how rare the car is. 

Hey its your car, and I don't disagree - - but wow - that conversion takes ball bearings of steel. 

[Old Moparz]

On a comparative condition 2nd generation charger,what $ value would you give a 4 speed charger over an automatic charger?
And would you overspend/overextend your budget to buy an available 4 speed(68,69,70) vs. Auto?

I think the 10% to 20% sounds about right, & if it helps any, the cost to find the 4 speed parts isn't cheap compared to an automatic. When I bought my '70 Road Runner, it came with a 23 spline 4 speed trans & a 10-1/2" flywheel, but was missing the bell housing. I had the trans rebuilt since it was basically a core & the condition was unknown, as well as getting the flywheel resurfaced. I hunted around for the bell housing & started to see prices on all the 4 speed parts, including 4 speed cores, at higher levels. (An 18 spline trans will make you dig even deeper.) Originality wasn't an issue, so I have a brand new scattershield for less cost than a stock bell housing that's 40 years old with stripped holes.

I was after a 4 speed car too so I expected to pay slightly more, but not go broke getting one.

[tricky lugnuts]

Don't mean to steer the conversation to the 3rd Gens, BUT...
I think production #'s can also make a difference.
I've got a '71 SE Charger, original 440 magnum/automatic. Gunmetal Blue with matching two-tone interior. (Rust FREE Arizona car.) They only made something like 616 '71 Charger SEs with a 440 magnum. Only 29 of those, or so, were 4-speed cars -- so they are a very rare car. Maybe worth more than your typical 440 automatic '71 Charger RT, because of that rarity.
There's one on E Bay right now, buried in a pile of crap, trashed, and missing a lot of parts. Guy can't seem to get more than $750 for it.
I've thought long and hard about converting mine to a 4-speed. (I too like shifting the gears and the thought of a pistol grip  just keeps growing on me.) But since it's an original automatic, I don't think I ever will.
Anyways, back to 68-70s. Just my thoughts, however useless. 

[Silver68RT]

I'm working on putting a 4-speed back in my '68 Charger R/T, and it's turning out to be pretty expensive.  It was converted to an automatic because someone was going to go drag racing, but I really prefer the 4-speed, so I think it's worth it to switch it all back.  I paid $750 for an 18-spline trans, $900 for the rebuild, $300 for a bellhousing, $1100 for a shifter, linkage, Z-bar, etc.  I still have to buy a clutch and flywheel, and a 4-speed console, and some other bits, which could easily add up to another $1500.  I still have to undo the floorpan/tunnel butchery that was done to put the auto in.  I could probably have had the car back on the road by now, if I was willing to settle for the automatic that's in it.  My '72 Charger SE and my '70 Road Runner were both auto's, and they were fun, but I've always wanted a big block 4-speed.

I'd say if you really want a 4-speed, and you find one with all the pieces that's within $5K of an equivalent automatic car, you're better off paying extra for the 4-speed car.

Doug
Silver68RT

[RT DAVE]

It depends on what options the car has, I guess.  I would personally (if I had the money) pay twice as much for a 70 or 71 hemi if it had a four speed.   For a lesser car, I would say maybe 30-40% more for a 383 or 440 car. 

[Blakcharger440]

I would say that the 4speed option seems to add about 15 to 25% in value in a musclecar.
Nothing screams performance like slamming gears and getting scratch down the block. The market does reflect the higher value.

[road/track]

You could not compare 4-spd and automatic like you compare Hemi Orange or Go Green, it's a totally different ballgame with the 4-spd you feel like you're actually driving with the stick, do what ever it takes to go with the stick!



E86/D21/D56

[69_500]

I'd go with the 4 speed every day of the week and twice on Sunday. Nothing beats shifting the gears in a Mopar.

Then again my 500 is an AT. And it doesn't really come down to who ordered their car with a 4 speed, more like who ordered it with an AT. As the AT was an option. Just had to say it.

[Brock Samson]

i get the four speed is a better high performance vehicle argument,..
but i live and work and drive in a very congested and hilly San Francisco where every one is turning left from the right lane with their right turn signal on and for me an Auto was the ticket...







  I must say some guys have ragged on my car cause it has the 727, but different strokes... It's my freakin car.
now, If I lived in Arizona... I'd probably be banging gears with a pistol grip. 

[PocketThunder]

i get the four speed is a better high performance vehicle argument,..
but i live and work and drive in a very congested and hilly San Francisco where every one is turning left from the right lane with their right turn signal on and for me an Auto was the ticket...

  I must say some guys have ragged on my car cause it has the 727, but different strokes... It's my freakin car.
now, If I lived in Arizona... I'd probably be banging gears with a pistol grip. 

its probably nice to lock the tranny in park also when parking on hills vs relying on the stick in gear and the e-brake.

[hemi-hampton]

With a 3,800 Stall Converter & Cheetah Manual Reverse Valve Body my Automatic works fine & fun to drive. Thought I seen Alcatraz in that Arial Veiw. LEON.

[Mike DC]

 
Do you really want a factory 4spd Charger?
Or you really just want a stick-shifted  Charger, and you're looking for a factory 4spd car to get it?

You can convert automatic cars with money, and the Keisler or Passon OD setups both seem to be major improvements over an old factory A-833 tranny.  (Not just in tenths of a second, but also in normal driveability.)  Same for the newer hydraulic clutch setups versus the old cable linkages.  What I'm saying is that a lot of the parts in a factory 4spd have better aftermarket replacements nowadays.  It's something to consider.

Factory, aftermarket, or factory-converted . . .  a stick car usually ends up costing you $3-5K more than the same automatic car would.

 

[AKcharger]

I'd pay an extra $3000 for a 4 speed car all things equal. I'm converting my '70 to a 4 speed in the future, so far I've got $1100 in the below parts. Still need clutch/pressure plate and throw out bearing and floor and console boots

[694spdRT]

I would agree with about a 25% difference on average. It does vary like Troy mentioned based on the car's condition. From what I have seen 4 speed Charger's also seem to bring a larger premium over automatic version compared to other models like the Super Bee or Roadrunner. If you look on Ebay there are always 4 speeds of other models available but a Charger is hard to find because they just didn't build many that way. The Charger was built as a more upscale car compared to the bare bones "muscle" and many got ordered with the automatic.

[COKE]

I bought my car on this forum 3 years ago.
i paid $18000 fo it.It is a R/T original 4 speed  non AC car and it had manual steering (Now it has power)
Original 4 speed also means a Dana 60 rear end.

I bought it just because it was manual.I,m pretty sure that i could get a better shape automatic car with ac and power steering  for that price,but i only find this with a 4 speed tranny.
I really don,t know if i paid too much for it.

For example,the people around here don,t want their  american calssic cars with 4 speed.
They only want to win the 1/4 mile so an old 4 speed tranny with those level shift travels ,are not in their minds.
They think that i,m mad ,but i want a car for drive not for the track,and the 4 speed is funny for me.

[hemi-hampton]

That NADA Bluebook sez add 10% for 4 speed, It also sez add 10% for A/C. SO, I guess that makes my Automatic A/C car equal to a 4speed non A/C car LEON.

[F8-4life]

Sorry to dredge up an oldie, but I find this thread very interesting. My buddy drives a 5 speed and we got to talking about driving stick. He knows Im after a charger and I told him I knew of a original '68 charger 383 4 speed project that runs. We were discussing what the 4 speed factor was worth in regards to a running 2nd gen charger project. Being both young and broke... we concluded maybe 1,500 or so. Of course after reading this thread I see it is much more. Especailly for being a factory stick car. Not much point to this post other then maybe I realized that I am lucky to know of a 68 4 speed and secondly I should probably try to buy the beast... haha.

[OldGuy]

Sorry to dredge up an oldie, but I find this thread very interesting. My buddy drives a 5 speed and we got to talking about driving stick. He knows Im after a charger and I told him I knew of a original '68 charger 383 4 speed project that runs. We were discussing what the 4 speed factor was worth in regards to a running 2nd gen charger project. Being both young and broke... we concluded maybe 1,500 or so. Of course after reading this thread I see it is much more. Especailly for being a factory stick car. Not much point to this post other then maybe I realized that I am lucky to know of a 68 4 speed and secondly I should probably try to buy the beast... haha.

If it has a 4 bbl, it will probably cost you even more due to the rarity - only 259 made in that configuration.

[Chryco Psycho]

the parts to convert alone are $3500 or so , with used parts , more for new .
For me there is no option , I simply never learned to drive an Auto so yes I pay more to get a manual !!

[Ghoste]

You need to at least inquire and see what the price of the car eally is F8.

[F8-4life]

It is my buddys car he had since '86. Original b5 with white top, 383 4bl 4 speed. Now has a 440, primered with a dmcl strip on the sides. Runs but has rust. Car has had a hard life, but I figure anything under 6k should be considered a gift between friends. He hinted that he already had another 4 speed car-meaning he might let the 68 go...) Some of you guys might laugh but even if the car is worth 12k, that still doesnt make 6k an easy swing for a 23 year old hahaha. Patiance is important in this mopar game I figure.

[hatersaurusrex]

Even though most of the guys on here probably are gonna say 4-speed, I prefer the good old 727.  Then again, my car will be built as a driver for crusing when the weather is good or general farting around, so I think it depends what you're building the car FOR as to what the answer is.  I would have (and did) pass on a 4-speed all things considered.   I need one hand free to wave at the girls anyway

[Cooter]

Stick shift will ALWAYS put more of the power to the wheels. Now, Whether or not you can get the wheels to the ground, then that's another story/thread.

[Ghoste]

Yes, the four speed will put more power to the ground but it isn't necessarily quicker.  We all think we can shift like Ronnie Sox but very few of us can actually select the next gear quicker than an automatic.  But the four speed is still more fun.

[johnnyseville]

NADA lists 10% premium for 4 speed.  My Hemi has a four speed and I like it, but with manual steering and traffic in NYC it is exhausting to drive, so I opted for an automatic and power steering on my Daytona, so I can cruise and relax.  I take out whichever I am in the mood for at the time.  Both have their pluses and minuses.

[AKcharger]

Well since my last post I did the 4 speed conversion on my '70. Hands down the best thing I've ever did for my car. One thing I'd suggest is if you pay the extra $$$ for a 4 speed car check it out well, especially the clutch/trans as most all have been BEAT! It's just some kind or primordial instinct to beat on a 4 speed car...I found that out


http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,95764.0.html

[Cooter]

What I find funny, is back in the day when these were new, the AUTO cars were the higher optioned out, more expensive rides...The 4-speed cars were manual trans, plain jane, turds. Now, it seems it's the other way round.

[69 OUR/TEA]

Everybodys different,I cared more about the color then the tranny,and my own personal preference is an auto.This is just me,sure a stick is fun to drive wether it be an old muscle car or a modern one,but it got old quick for me ,so I'd rather get into a car,stick it in drive and go.
The most important to me was finding a real 3x9 R/T ,if there were a 4speed any other color or the 3x9 auto,still would have taken the 3x9 with an auto over a stick,so to me a 4 speed car means NO additional value.
I had a 04 Mustang GT,and an 09 Challenger R/T,both sticks,got rid of them both,Mustang to go for needing a new truck,Chally because I didn't use it much.If I had gotten an auto Chally,would have kept it as my wife doesn't drive stick,and would have let her use it.
Brought the 09 chally to the track,the stick cars did and still do have nasty wheel hop.The autos don't and get better 60' times,and are quicker than the stick Challys in this case.
I will say it def looks cooler looking into an old musclecar and seeing a pistol grip sticking up out of the floor,but not worth the huge premium over an auto to me.