Could my mileage get any worse with a bigger cam?

[mikepmcs]

Wow, does this thread seem eerily similar to the one I posted right down to the cam selection.

Finally got all my stuff for the entire cam swap.  wow, what a list. don't forget the engine break in additive and the cam and lifter lube.

Paul, when you get a chance, check this thread out.  It's very close to this one and I also almost made the mistake of getting talked into a K58. 

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,26028.0.html

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,23822.0.html

The one question I have now is, I had my cam made as a 3 bolt style cause I had the crazy notion of adding a gear drive.  Through research and listening here I decided that wasn't a good idea to get the cheapy dual gear drives as they will most likely fail.  So now I have a 3 bolt and i'm 99% sure that my MP that's in there now is a one bolt.  I assume I will have to get a new timing gear setup now?  I can't afford the milodon gear drive set up, so i'm asking what timing gear setup do you guys prefer if i infact need to replace it?

edit, which one on this page cause i'm guessing i need to replace it.  i need to advance the cam 4* as suggested so I want to get the right one.

I just figured Mancini since i need a valve spring removal tool anyway.

http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/timingchain.html

Thanks and thanks again Ron for all your sound advice.
v/r
Mike

[Paul G]

Just got off the phone with Chris at Engle. The K56 is ordered with a new set of lifters. I called and got the spring rates from Comp for there 926 springs. Chris said the Comp springs will be just fine for the K56 cam since it is not an overly agresive profile.

Comp 926 springs:
110 closed
315 open
1.140 coil bind
1.80 height

Engle springs:
110 to 120 closed
300 open

My springs measure 1 15/16" from the spring seat to the retainer. I am trying to figure out what that converts to in decimal. Why are there spacers under the springs?

For break in Chris said to change the oil to Racing oil with Zinc, or Shell Rotella T, but he didnt say what weight oil to use. Oil recomendations for breakin?

Start and run the engine at 1800 rpm for 20 minutes with no idling or reving during the 20 minutes. Then change the oil again. I ssume back to regular oil???

[firefighter3931]

Mike, you don't need to get all fancy with a timing set. 

This is the one i like made by Comp Cams....it has the three keyway lower gear for adjustable cam timing. The Comp chains hold up very well and won't stretch....unlike some of the other pricier sets. The MP chains are known for premature stretching/sagging. 


http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=CCA%2D2109&autoview=sku



Ron

[firefighter3931]

Just got off the phone with Chris at Engle. The K56 is ordered with a new set of lifters. I called and got the spring rates from Comp for there 926 springs. Chris said the Comp springs will be just fine for the K56 cam since it is not an overly agresive profile.

Comp 926 springs:
110 closed
315 open
1.140 coil bind
1.80 height

Engle springs:
110 to 120 closed
300 open

For break in Chris said to change the oil to Racing oil with Zinc, or Shell Rotella T, but he didnt say what weight oil to use. Oil recomendations for breakin?

Start and run the engine at 1800 rpm for 20 minutes with no idling or reving during the 20 minutes. Then change the oil again. I ssume back to regular oil???

Paul, those 926 springs are really close. Maybe run it by Engle to see what they think....give them all the 926 specs.


Oil ; Rotella 15/40 diesel oil with a bottle of GM EOS (engine oil supplement) for breakin. Change oil and filter immediately and use the same stuff....rotella and EOS.....or you could use Valvoline racing vr-1 20/50 with the EOS.  Napa "gold" for the oil filter. 


I would run the cam at 2000-2200 rpm for 25 minutes with the occasional blip to the throttle to help promote lifter rotation.




Ron

[Paul G]

Found an inch to decimal converter. http://www.seoconsultants.com/charts/inches-decimal/#conversion
My springs are at 1.9" then. I hope they are okay. Chris thinks they should be but I failed to mention to him about the spacers.

[Paul G]

Called Chris again. Man I feel stupid! Learning all this stuff is making my hair hurt! Installed height is from the bottom of the spring retainer to the bottom of the spring, not including the shims. Just the spring length in this measurement. Thats why the shims can change this measurement. Chris still thinks they are okay with 110 closed pressure and 315 open pressure at 1.8" installed height which is the comp spec. Engle sends some redline lubricant with a new cam to put on the cam lobes and lifters for breakin. All I still need now are gaskets.   

Thanks Ron and the rest of you guys for hanging with me.

[Paul G]

Another stupid question. When the cam gear and crank gear timing marks are lined up is this TDC of #1 cylinder? Should the rotor in the distributer be pointing at #1 tower on the distributer cap?

[Chryco Psycho]

with the crank gear at 12 o clock & the cam @ 12 o clock the engine is at TDC#1 firing & the dist rotor should be pointed at #! , if the cam gear is at 6 oclock it is at TDC firing #6 cylinder & the rotor should be pointed at #6 on the cap

[Paul G]

Thanks Chryco. I was a little concerned because the rotor was not pointed at #1. All is well.

[deputycrawford]

     Paul G. I would like to add that a cam that is, lets say, 25% bigger will also cause the swelling of the right foot approximately another 25%. That comes out to be pretty close to 50% percent more fuel usage.    Fuel milage will have to be converted to feet per gallon. This is a problem many of us have come to realize with our cars also.

[Paul G]

I am starting to see it like this. You get a bigger cam, And it is good. Then you decide you want more. So you get some headers, and it is good. Then you decide you want more. so you get better heads, and it is good. Then you decide you want more.....etc.

[firefighter3931]

     Paul G. I would like to add that a cam that is, lets say, 25% bigger will also cause the swelling of the right foot approximately another 25%. That comes out to be pretty close to 50% percent more fuel usage.    Fuel milage will have to be converted to feet per gallon. This is a problem many of us have come to realize with our cars also.

Ain't that the truth ! 



Ron

[Chryco Psycho]

More is always better & too much is never enough

[Paul G]

The new cam and lifters came today. I put assembly lube on the cam lobes and bearings just like on TV. Slid it in and put the timing set back on. I put the lower timing gear back on just like it was. Straight up. Would it be advisable to put it advanced or retarded?

Is it necessary to soak the new lifters in fresh oil before I install them?

Also, with my old lifters I noticed that some of them will compress and some wont. Is that normal?

Thanks again.

[firefighter3931]

I put the lower timing gear back on just like it was. Straight up. Would it be advisable to put it advanced or retarded?

Is it necessary to soak the new lifters in fresh oil before I install them?

Also, with my old lifters I noticed that some of them will compress and some wont. Is that normal?

Thanks again.

Paul,

Does your lower gear have 3 keyways ? If it does then you should make sure which keyway the gear is set to. There will be small stamped symbols identifying which is which....assuming it has the three keyway lower gear. I prefer to degree the cam in.

I don't soak the lifters.....just pour oil over the top of them after the valvetrain is all buttoned up. They will fill up as soon as the engine is fired.


Sounds like some of your old lifters are pumped up....not uncommon.



Ron

[Paul G]

Lower gear has 3 keyways. I have it set on the one with a 0, the other keyways are marked with an "A" and  with a "R".

[firefighter3931]

Lower gear has 3 keyways. I have it set on the one with a 0, the other keyways are marked with an "A" and  with a "R".

Paul, the recommended intake centerline for that cam is 106* which is 4* advanced. I'm gonna assume that the "A" is advanced and the "R" is retarded. Try to verify if this is correct with the timing chain manufacturer. This is why i like to degree in cams. 



Ron

[Paul G]

Okay guys, how do you get the intake bolts to start threading in to the heads with all those gaskets? The bolt holes are not even close.

[General_01]

How many gasket sets are you trying to use? One between the valley pan and heads and then one between the intake and valley pan? If you are trying this it won't work. I ran into this a couple years ago. You are gonna have to use one set of gaskets and silicone. I am trying to remember what I did with mine 2 years ago but I can't. I think I may have used a gasket against the heads and put silicone between the intake and valley pan. Not positive though. I may have even went no gaskets and siliconed everything, but I don't think I did that.

The only other thing would be to take the heads and intake to a machine shop and have them machined to match with the dual gasket set up would be my guess.

[deputycrawford]

     The valley pan is designed to "crush" itself between the surfaces. I personally use silicone in the corners between the heads and block and nothing on the rest of it. Just put the bolts in and torque to 40 Foot pounds on all 8 intake bolts. I do not know the specific torque of the front and rear valley pan bolts but I would only use around 10 foot pounds. Ask others what the torque setting of those are.

[Paul G]

I guess I have to take a couple steps back then. The valley pan is sealed to the block and heads. It is still fresh so it should come off fairly easy. I will take the gaskets out and just use sealer on both sides of the valley pan. Thats the way it was put together when I took it off. I thought the guy before me was just doing shody work not using gaskets. I gues not.

[Paul G]

The swap is all done   It runs great. It engine seems to run smoother than before. Noticeably throatier exhaust tone. And it has a bit more  

On start up the engine was making a lot of racket, sounded like I had a bunch of bent pushrods. I was scared  to say the least. After 5 or 10 minutes it started to quiet down. Now the valve train is quieter than it was before. I think maybe a few of the old lifters were bad, or just noisy?? I cant imagine what my neighbors were thinking while I was doing the break in. I am sure they could hear it a block away  

I put a timing tape on the balancer while it was off the car. I have initial timing set at 12*. At 3500 rpm it goes up to almost 40*. The vacuum advance is turned all the way off. No detonation as of yet. The mech'l advance springs are very weak little things. I am sure all the mech'l advance comes in real quick. What do you think of all that? Too much timing or not?

It feels like midrange power is better, with a little more up top as well. I still cant annihilate the tires like before.   They do spin quite well for about 10' or 15' but, to burn down the 295/50's I think it would take a whole lot more power. I am not ready for that just yet. From what I have learned it will take new parts through out the whole drive train. Next thing is working on the tune.    

Thanks guys for all the help. Couldn't have done it without you!

[firefighter3931]

Paul, congrats on getting it fired up and running.....now it's time to tune ! 

Get some more base timing into it.....like 15-16* at idle and block off the vac advance at the carb....forget it exists 

Map out your advance in 500rpm increments starting at idle and note the total advance and at what RPM it stops. You might have to modify your distributor to limit the mechanical advance. Ideally you want around 36-38 at 2500-3000. 


There's lots more in it....you just have to find it ! 



Ron

[Chryco Psycho]

So I guess you are happy with the results !!
keep tuning as Ron said there is more in it