Began to assemble the HEMI... UPDATE 16/12-2007 and situation FUN again....

[Mefirst]

Well here is an update (for those interested) about my Hemi engine..

(You can find the rest of the story at this address http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,19295.0.html )

Took the Hemi appart to check out the internals. Everything looks good and passed inspection.
Changed the main and rod bearings for a set of fresh ones just to be safe.. Cleaned the block inside out, well cleaned everything else to...

Here are some pictures...

New Main bearings in place..

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a225/Gimmegimmies/Engine/P1010002-2.jpg

This piston/rod combo just look wicked

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a225/Gimmegimmies/Engine/P1010004.jpg

Crank cleaned and ready to place it back into the block.

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a225/Gimmegimmies/Engine/P1010005.jpg

Rotating assembly in its rightful place...

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a225/Gimmegimmies/Engine/P1010006.jpg

Preview of what the Hemi will look like once its al done...

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a225/Gimmegimmies/Engine/P1010009.jpg

I'm still waiting for my parts shipment from the States containing some goodies. Ill get my custom made Aluminium oil pan and valley pan next week. I mounted an electric fuel pump and also did some minor stuff that had to be taken care of...

I'm happy with the progress and if Mr. Murphy doesn't start to bother me, then I should be able to the Beast with in a couple of months...

/Tom

[70charger_boy]

 

[greenrt_se]

hi Tom
looking good

[firefighter3931]

Sweeeet ! 


Ron

[daytonalo]

Nice engine , I have a 472 hemi ,in my opinion , a hemi isnt a hemi without 2x4 on top .

[Mefirst]

Nice engine , I have a 472 hemi ,in my opinion , a hemi isnt a hemi without 2x4 on top .

-Hmm, well I do have this thing laying around...

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a225/Gimmegimmies/Engine/P1010031.jpg

/Tom

[Silver R/T]

nice engine

[LargerCharger383]

  sweet engine!

[Bandit72]

Nice engine , I have a 472 hemi ,in my opinion , a hemi isnt a hemi without 2x4 on top .

-Hmm, well I do have this thing laying around...

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a225/Gimmegimmies/Engine/P1010031.jpg

/Tom

oooohhhhhh,,, i'd go with that one 

[george68hemirr]

sweet hemi ....good luck with it!!!

[Mefirst]

george68hemirr***

-Your Hemi looks so sweet Would you write down some info about your Hemi build?

Take care...

/Tom

[Mefirst]

And a short update...

-Well sadly the project is kinda stuck in its tracks at the moment, problem is that I have not yet got my parts shipment. Cant go any further untill the parts arrive...

Ill update the thread as soon as my parts shipment arrives and I can start to work on the Hemi again....

/Tom

[george68hemirr]

george68hemirr***

-Your Hemi looks so sweet Would you write down some info about your Hemi build?

Take care...

/Tom

tom....keith black aluminum block..4.50borex4.50 stroke
scat crank
oliver billit steel race rods
je 11.5 to1 pistons
bullit 700 lift flat tappet cam
schubeck composit solid lifters
smith brothers chromemoly push rods
stage v aluminum heads..2.40 intake/1.94exhaust with comp port/polish
stage v roller rockers and stands
comp cams 550lb double springs
milodon gear drive
milodon dual line swing gate oiling system
9 qt milodon oil pan with hole for steering link
msd billit distrib
msd 6al box
msd coil
tayor 10mm plug wires
mp valve covers that i polished
indy tunnel ram and valley pan that i polished
pro-systems built 10.50 dominators
bds custom blower scoop
merinze high volumn elect water pump
power master high torqe mini starter
tti 2 1/8..3 1/2 ceramic headers
ati super damper
3/8 aluminum motor plate that i polished
etc etc......

[george68hemirr]

Tom, i see you are going to use the studs for the intake valley pan.....they say thats a no-no for the expansion and contraction of the heads and the block.....i just siloconed mine without them and no leaks......are you using new rods?...the rods take the most abuse....dont take a chance of blowing up....buy new rods and be safe....i took a chance and snapped number 3 rod and came out both sides of the block on my 426

[Mefirst]

George..

Thank you for the info on your Hemi..

About the studs, Ill have to do some checking into this. I plan to use a simple straight custom fitted aluminium walley pan. Those studs in the pic are left cause the engine had a stock Hemi intake on it when I bought it, so they are not ment to be used to fasten the walley pan.

Ill have to do some checking about the rods though. To what I understand, the guy who used to own the engine before the guy I in turn bought it from, did put new rods into it as well as (Venolia) pistons. But Ill have to call him up again and recheck. I do know that since the previous rebuild, the Hemi has not seen much use, and it was only driven on the highway occasionally, never at the track by the previous owner.

Here is my Hemi build. This is only the First stage of the engine, it will be progressively modified..

Block is a real Hemi race block that has been machined for weigh.
Kellogg Pro Stock crank
Rods are NASCAR classified rods. Manufacturer unknown.
Venolia pistons
Compression 13.4:1 (Ill use a little thicker head gasket and a cam with allot of duration to bleed out a little of the comp.)

Indy Dominator intake (Gasket ported)
Holley Dominator 1050cmf carb
Mopar factory Super Stock aluminium race heads # 3614433 (Double spark plugs)
*Heads ported by Mullen & Co.
Mopar rockers and valve gear. (Will upgrade to better after market pices in the future)
Smith and Brothers chromemoly push rods
Crane Cams Hyd. Roller lifters
Cam choice is a Crane Cams Hydraulic roller # 669551 with lots of duration. Blower/Nitrous cam (I also have another Crane Cams camshaft, a Mek. Roller # 669091)
*The cam choice was a compromise. The mek. roller would not be street friendly, but may be used in the future...

Fluidampr
Donovan Gear drive
Milodon external dual line oiling system with swivel pick-up
Custom made aluminium 9qts oil pan

MSD distributor
MSD Digital-6 ignition box
MSD coil

Super Competition headers witch have been ceramic coated. (Will be upgraded TTi headers in the future)
TTi compleat exhaust system with X-pipe

727 with Turbo Action manual valvebody. Trans also race prepped.
Dynamic 9.5" turbine
8 3/4" with Moser shafts. 3.91 gears

Chassis/Suspension as a Stocker

/Tom

[Mefirst]

I also finally got good news concerning my parts shipment. It should arrive by the end of this month. Sadly I will not be able to take my ride to the track this season. Then again I have allot of things, besides the engine, that has to be taken care of. Need a rollcage, new front seats, 4 or 5 point safety harness.. etc..

/Tom

[george68hemirr]

why some much compression.....race gas only.....with a cast block and aluminum heads the pump gas limit is 10.5 to 1....if you had a aluminum block you could go 11.5 to 1.....the gas is going to kill ya......take your time and build the car right....theres always next year

[Mefirst]

This is why I use the long duration camshaft and thicker head gasket. If it doesnt work, well then Ill convert it to run on E85, that I know for a fact will work with the given engine compression..

/Tom

[Mefirst]

2nd of September 2007

After some 5 months my Hemi project is moving along again...

Didn't get that much done today, reason was that the custom made aluminium oil pan was not directly bolt on.. I had to "gently" persuade it with a to get it bolted on, to the engine block.. Reason was that the oil pan edges had warped some during the welding...

Another problem was with the Dipstick. Again I had to use some gentle and make a small notch into the side of the pan, to get the dipstick to go into the oil pan. The edge of the oil pan completely covered the engine block dipstick hole.. It also took two oil pan gaskets and some silicone... After al that work, I do believe it will hold the oil inside the oilpan as its supposed to

Here are a couple of pictures.. The oil pan looks absolutely brutal





I also test fitted the Milodon external oil pump system.. It looks so sweet, that its kinda sad it will be hidden under the headers...

More updates to come later....

/Tom

[firefighter3931]

Looks really good Tom....nice oilpan !   



Ron

[Steve P.]

Looks great Tom. Love the pan...   Hey, how much weight do you think you took off with the SWISS CHEESE BLOCK??

[Mefirst]

Looks great Tom. Love the pan... Hey, how much weight do you think you took off with the SWISS CHEESE BLOCK??

-Yeah, the oilpan looks "Kick Ass" I love the look of the aluminium and the huge and wide welds...

..about the block... I did actually think about weighing the block when I pulled out al the internals, but sadly I did not get around to do it... The machine work was done by the engine shop that built the Sox & Martin Hemi engines.... There is allot of material that has been removed from the block.. My bet is, if the engine has a major failure, the internals will be flying out in al possible directions, cause of al the weight saving machine work done to it

The Hemi heads (P3614433) are also amazingly light, it feels that they weigh even less than the Edelbrock RPM heads that I had on my former 440 engine...

/Tom

[Mefirst]

29/9-2007 Update....

Well here is whats happend today with my Hemi project...

The heads are about 1/2 done. Valves and valve springs are in place. Whats left is to drop in the lifters, then check the push rod clearances, bolt on the rocker assembly and then bolt on the heads to the block... Hope to get that job done this Sunday...

Also one other thing I managed to get bolted on today, was the Milodon external oiling system.. Kinda sad that the oiling system is going to be hidden under the header tubes... (Sorry about the bad picture quality, took it with my cellphone camera)



/Tom

[Mefirst]

Update 30/9-2007

Well situation is at Defcon 14 right now

A came up concerning the lifters, push rods and rockers... Most of it has to do with the lifters and pushrods. The pushrod geometry is totally UP... The problem is that the pushrods do not have enough room to move through the heads, so I'll have to make the hole diameter, that go through the heads larger, so the pushrods can move up/down without hitting the heads... I did know that this problem is known using the cam, lifters and pushrods I have, but I did not think it would be this bad...

Another issue is the rockers.. I will have to buy a new set, the ones I have are not in their prime condition any more... I will drive the engine with the old rockers this incoming season, but I'll definitely change them out for new ones come next winter...

/Tom

[firefighter3931]

Tom, are you using a higher ratio rocker arm ? 1.6:1 ?

Those hemi rockers aren't cheap ! 



Ron

[Mefirst]

Tom, are you using a higher ratio rocker arm ? 1.6:1 ?

Those hemi rockers aren't cheap ! 

Ron

Ron

No, the rocker arms are standard, 1.55:1 I believe... -Yeah, a new compleat set of rocker arms cost a fortune, but still, a new set would be cheaper than having to rebuild the engine, if one or several rockers fail...

/Tom

[firefighter3931]

Tom, are you using a higher ratio rocker arm ? 1.6:1 ?

Those hemi rockers aren't cheap ! 

Ron

Ron

No, the rocker arms are standard, 1.55:1 I believe... -Yeah, a new compleat set of rocker arms cost a fortune, but still, a new set would be cheaper than having to rebuild the engine, if one or several rockers fail...

/Tom

Tom, Rocker arm geometry has allways been a known issue with hemi motors....it's difficult to get them just right ! 

What rockers are you using ? Rollers ?



Ron

[Mefirst]

No, they are mechanical..



..so this is really "Ol´School" I also noticed when I linked the pic that these type of rockers seem to have a ratio of 1.7:1 for intake and 1.65:1 for exhaust, so I´ll have to check again the ones I have...

About the geometry... -True, nothing seems to line up right, it just looks weird... When you drop in the pushrods into the lifters, the angle the pushrods are in, well it looks just weird. The pushrods don't have enough space to move about when you rotate the engine. Like I wrote in my earlier post, I knew this might become a problem, but I did not think it would be this serious. I have to "grind" off material from the heads to get the pushrods to move with out hitting anything... 

/Tom

[firefighter3931]

The larger ratio makes sense.....that's usually the case, even with wedge heads. As the Ratio increases the pushrod tunnels need more clearancing. If the cam is very agressive this only aggrivates the problem.

Some of the old school iron adjustables weren't really designed for high lift roller cams and the sweet pattern across the valve tip can be all fubarred. 

I'm not a hemi expert but i would suggest you run this by someone like Tim Banning at FHO for some feedback. 



Ron

[Mefirst]

The larger ratio makes sense.....that's usually the case, even with wedge heads. As the Ratio increases the pushrod tunnels need more clearancing. If the cam is very agressive this only aggrivates the problem.

Some of the old school iron adjustables weren't really designed for high lift roller cams and the sweet pattern across the valve tip can be all fubarred. 

I'm not a hemi expert but i would suggest you run this by someone like Tim Banning at FHO for some feedback. 

Ron

-So true. The roller cam that was used in this engine was a real animal. The heads have had machining done to them for more pushrod tunnel clearance, but problem is that that clearance work was done in a different angle, than what is needed to get the clearance for the hyd.cam push rods I plan on using...

About the rockers... The tips of the rockers have seen better days, thats the main reason I have to buy new ones...

/Tom

[firefighter3931]

Tom, just so we're on the same page  ....what cam are you planning to run in the hemi ? The same roller or something milder ? You mentioned hyd pushrods in your last post.


Ron

[Mefirst]

The cam im using is a hyd. roller cam from Crane # 669551

Link... http://www.cranecams.com/

I do also have the former roller cam, but Im not planing on using it.. # 669091

I also have the former hyd.cam that was in the engine when I bought it..

Comp Cams 305H10 Hi-Tech hydraulic camshaft
Adv. Duration:305 Int. 305 Exh./Duration at .050 253 Int. 253 Exh./Lift .550 Int. .532 Exh./Lobe separation angle: 110

/Tom

[firefighter3931]

Tom, did you see these notes at the bottom of your cam's spec page On Crane's website ? 

Remarks:
DUE TO THE INCREASE IN PUSHROD SEAT HEIGHT, THE CYLINDER HEAD AND POSSIBLY THE BLOCK WILL HAVE TO BE MODIFIED FOR PUSHROD CLEARANCE. 

That looks like a very nice grind.....should make killer power in your hemi ! 

There's a company in California called RAS which stands for "rocker arm specialists". They recondition iron rocker arms....adding bronze bushings, correcting ratios, resurfacing contact pads etc.... I would be sending the rocker arms to them before buying anything new....probably save yourself a few grand. 


http://www.rockerarms.com/index.htm



Ron

[Mefirst]

Ron

-Yeah. I did read the note about the cam. Then again the push rod tunnels in the heads were already machined, so I of course thought that the new pushrods could move about with out any problem...

The guy I bought the cam from, tried it out in his 572 Hemi, his Hemi made N/A some 800HP.. The reason he changed out the cam was he didint like how it made the engine sound and behave, so he changed it out to a cam that was more gentle..

/Tom

[Mefirst]

Update 27/10-2007

Well I'm still trying to get the push rods to move freely through the heads.. -I can only say that this job is a -Bitch I think I have removed at least 5 pounds of material and still the damn push rods hit the push rod tunnel walls in the heads... I started out filing down the tunnel walls by hand, first marking out in what angle the push rods move through the heads.. I cant even explane how much this work sucks .. Remove some material from the heads, place the head on the block, drop in the push rods, drop in the rocker assembly, check the push rod clearance... -Nope, not even close... Start al over again...

Any way, today I kinda "lost it" and used a grinder Then again trying to hold your hand steady when the grinder is turning at 30.000RPM and trying not to remove to much material is not good for your nerves... I would want to say I got the job done... Sadly not, I'm close now, but still need to remove more material... and this is only yet the right side head im working on, still got the left side head to do

-I just hope that using this cam is worth the pain in the a$$

/Tom

PS. Ill take some pics so you can see how much I had to open up the push rod tunnels...

[Steve P.]

Take it slow brother.. I like to use a block of wood as a hand rest. It makes it easier to control that monster..

Good luck.. 

[Mefirst]

Take it slow brother.. I like to use a block of wood as a hand rest. It makes it easier to control that monster..

Good luck.. 

-Im as delicate as if I was doing brain surgery... 

/Tom

[Steve P.]

Come on... You CAN'T use a cleaver on your heads....   

[Mefirst]

..the project continues.... 28/10-2007

Todays accomplishment... -Almost, but still not enough ... Then again I can now rotate the engine, but al of the exhaust and one intake push rod are still to close to the push rod tunnel wall.. -Yes they do move about freely, but still not enough room to move, that Id feel comfortable rewing the engine up to 7000RPM -Damn, I wouldnt even let it idle before I can get the push rods to move more freely...

Here are some pictures... Just so you can see how much material I have had to remove from the heads...





/Tom

[Steve P.]

Holy bottomless pit, Batman...     Are you using 1/2" diameter push rods or what??  Looks to me like you should own a mill.....  Good luck bro...   

[Mefirst]

Steve

The pushrods are 3/8" in diameter. The problem is the way the push rods move about. Push rods don't move up and down in a straight/linear line, they also move kinda "rotating" (I don't know how to explane this movement in English). Its this "rotating" movement of the push rods that cause the problem...

/Tom

[Steve P.]

Hehehe.... I know how they work, Tom. I was busting your chops.. It really does look like a mill would really help..

[Mefirst]

Hehehe.... I know how they work, Tom. I was busting your chops.. It really does look like a mill would really help..

I think with the amount of aluminium Ive removed from the head, I think it would be almost enough to cast a new piston.. well a small one at least.. Wish I had a CNC machine, that would make this alot easier, well after figuring out how to set up the CNC machine so it would remove material from the right spot...

/Tom

[firefighter3931]

Geeez....that's a major pain in the azz ! 

Keep at it Tom ! 


Ron

[Mefirst]

UPDATE 9/12-2007

After allot of time spent removing aluminium from the heads, the pushrods finally move about freely

I test assembled the engine with both heads and valvegear and everything seems to bolt on perfectly. The engine is also easy to rotate, well once the sparkplugs are in place, my bet is that its gonna be a bitch to rotate cause of the high compression (about 12.8:1 something)

I also took the heads appart once more to clean them from al of the aluminium dust left from the grinding work...

Here are some pictures...







I'm gonna assemble it completely next Sunday and hope that I wont have to open it up again for some time. Then again I'm probably gonna open it up after the summer season 2008, just to check everything, cause it is after al a race engine, so it needs allot of TLC....

/Tom

PS. The car in the background of the first picture is my buddys 69 Super Bee...

[firefighter3931]

Tom  that's looking really good ! 


Ron

[yeahitsgotahemi!]

That oil valley is really smooth and shiny, is that some type of epoxy to smooth it out and help with oil flow?

[Mefirst]

That oil valley is really smooth and shiny, is that some type of epoxy to smooth it out and help with oil flow?

Its just a thick layer of paint. The engine is an old Pro Stock race engine. Engine builders many times paint the valley to smooth out the walls. The idea behind this is that the oil will flow faster down into the oil pan.. I have no idea if this is just some kind of "Voodoo", but many Stock and Super Stock engine valleys are painted for this reason... Its also belived that it would generate a little more power..

/Tom

[Mefirst]

Update 16/12-2007

The heads and valvegear are officially bolted on as of today.. Next job will be to fit the Indy intake and walleypan, which will most certainly again be one of those projects .. Ill start with that project come January 2008...

Here are some pictures for those interested...



I also tried to take a pic so you can see how BIG the intake runners are (Did some port work on them earlier).. I can almost fit my hand into them For the Fuel/Air mixture its more or less a straight drop from the carburator into the cylinders..





/Tom

[firefighter3931]

Very impressive Tom ! 

That single 4bbl manifold looks like a tunnel ram ! 

It's amazing to see how strait the runner to valve path is on these Hemi motors. That will make some killer top end power !!! 


Ron