Fel-Pro 1009 gasket/eddy heads

[HDCharger]

First let me say I've been getting some water in my oil and I pulled the heads to check it out.

1. I have a question about the 1009 Head Gasket.  What appears to be water passages in the block appear to be a figure 8 shape and the eddy heads have a D shaped port that mates one side of the of the head port.  However, the 1009 gasket only has a small maybe 3/4" long slit between the 2 ports.  Is this the way these are suppose to be?

2.  I was using Comp 3/8" with 5/16 ball/ball tip pushrods and had some pretty annoying  loud valve train noise and it appears a couple of the pushrods have been hitting the head slightly.    I have the old Hughes 3038 can with their recommended springs on the heads.  I have no clue as to spring pressures. Who makes a quality standard length 5/16" pushrod  that I can use?  I have a set of Mopar 5/16" pushrods but I am afraid to run them.

3.  More problems.  I am running the Comp Pro Magnum roller rockers and I think the rocker arms may be tapping the retainers slightly causing part of my valve train noise.  Can I just buy shims and raise the rockers?  I should have enough adjustment in the rockers without buying a special length pushrod.  Maybe I should just get a set of ductile iron and be done with it.  Thanks, Dave

[firefighter3931]

HD,

(1) the 1009's are supposed to look like that....the slits help with coolant distribution and ask as a restrictor of sorts....perfectly normal. Did you ever re-torque your heads after the initial fireup ?

(2) Several companies make a heavy duty thick wall 5/16in pushrod....Crane, Comp, etc...

(3) Are these the stock e-head retainers on your heads ? Or, are you using a hughes retainer with the hughes springs ? Fwiw, the stock e-head springs and retainers will work fine with that cam.  I hav never heard of any fitment issues with the Comp pro magnum rockers and the stock e-head springs/retainers....that's why i'm curious about what exactly has been swapped out ? 

One last question ; when you adjusted your lifter preload....how many threads were showing on the adjuster on the underside of the rocker arm ?



Ron

[HDCharger]

Ron, I bought those heads from hughes and I believe they changed the springs and retainers to match the cam (Been awhile).  Probably didn't need it and I didn't know any better at the time.  I don't really see any marks on the retainers but they are certainly close, real close.

I had/have about 1-2 threads below the rocker.  Most of the noise could have been the pushrods.  Would the Mopar pushrods last or should i just spend the $ and get some mancini or Comp  Chromoly push rods?

Lastly, no sir I did not re-torque the heads.  Another boo boo on my part.  Dave

[firefighter3931]

Dave,

As long as there is no contact between the retainer and rocker arm just go with it.  It's possible that Hughes used a slightly larger diameter spring/retainer when they set the heads up for the 30/38 cam....but as long as there are no "witness marks" just run it.

1-2 threads is ideal for adjuster oiling...no problems there. 

On the pushrods ; most pushrods will deflect (bend) somewhat under higher load conditions....more than likely that is what is happening with yours. Going with a smaller 5/16 heavy wall pushrod will alleviate the deflection and give you increased clearance. I'd look at something with at least .065 wall thickness and made of Chrome moly. 

On the heads ; Sometimes they are fine without a retorque and sometimes they leak. Retorquing never hurts and can prevent a potential leak issue. At this point i would just have the heads cleaned up and maybe cut at a machine shop a few thoudandths to give you a nice new surface to seal up. Clean the block with laquer thinner as well....then bolt it back together and retorque the heads after it has been brought up to temp a few times....just to be safe.



Ron

[HDCharger]

I bolted her all back together, Changed the oil, put 5/16" push rods, etc. She fired right up but she still sounds like a cummins diesel.  Is it ok to take a dremel or file and slightly shave the edge of the spring retainers?  They are very, very close to the arm when valves are closed.  If that is not the problem then the only other thing I could possible think it may be is the Machine shop didn't properly clearance the 440 Crank and its tapping.  I know the Comp Pro Magnum Roller rockers are noisy but It shouldn't be that bad. Couple things concern me now, the 5/16 pushrod is the exact same length as the 3/8 but the fall almost flush with the rocker arm will those be ok or do I need a shorter Push rod?  This Engine is Killing me, I have broke the bank and got to drive it maybe 5 miles in the 6 or 7 years I've owned her:  All this in a 69 White Hat Special Charger, although vinyl roof and interior weren't originally white? 

451
72 400 block 230 Casting (Got lucky it was in the car when I bought it
Steel 3.75" stroke 440 Crank with mains turned to 400 size
LY Rods
Ross Forged Pistons, flat with valve reliefs
Performer RPM
MSD 6AL and Billet Distributor
Hollley 830dp with annular boosters
Hughes Prepped Edelbrock Heads
Comp Pro-magnum Rockers
March Serpentine Pulleys
Hughes 3038 Cam INT .515" EXH .536" INT .549"    EXH .572"   230 °  238 °  276 °  286 °
Matching Hughes Valve Springs and Lifters
TTI 1 7/8 Headers and 2.5 Exhaust
PTC 3000 Stall Converter
3.55 SG

[firefighter3931]

Dave, can you take a few pics of the rocker arms mocked up ? I'd like to see the problem areas. I'm not sure how Hughes set up the springs & retainers but something isn't right. Measure the installed height of the valvespring....it should be 1.90 from the head to the bottom of the retainer. Measure the diameter of the retainer as well. Fwiw, grinding the retainer is not an option, inmo.


Ron

[HDCharger]

Thanks, Will do, it may be later tonight or tomorrow.  I have school tonight but I will get those measurements when I can.  Dave

[HDCharger]

Ron,  here is a couple pics of the rockers.  As you can see the milky looking oil resting atop the heads.  I am hoping that is just residual from the previous leak.  Going to change the oil again for oh about the 30th time.  Getting expensive!  I measured the spring height and retainer diameter as best I could.  Kind of hard with the rockers installed, i used a small screwdriver and them measured that with my calipers.  Height was 2.034 and diameter was 1.431, again i am not sure just how accurate those are but should be in the ballpark.  I shot a short video I'd like for you to listen to but its close to 5 megs and I am not certain how to reduce it.  Can you receive something that large?  Thanks, dave

[Chryco Psycho]

the problem with the Fel Pro gaskets & alum heads is the different expansion rates between the iron & alum , the gaskets simple Will fail
I will only use MLS Cometic gaskets between iron & alum & seeing as you have a water problem I would bet head gasket
I would pressurize teh cooloing system with the intake off & look for water , if it is not there have the heads pressure tested to see if there is porosity or core shift or over porting causing the leak   

[firefighter3931]

Dave, good pics !  I don't see any witness marks on the retainers which is a good sign.  The oil does look a little milky though. Do what Chryco suggested....pressure test the cooling system. On the valvetrain noise ; how much preload are you setting on the hydraulic lifters ? It should have at least .020 inches. You might have to increase the preload to get rid of the noise.


Ron


Ps. Try sending the vid to my e-mail address.

[HDCharger]

Ron/Chryco, I went between 1/4-1/2 turn after 0.  Should I try more?  I will try and send the video.  I looked up the Gaskets and am going to get a set of those.  I am bored to 4.375 with those Ross pistons so I guess I should get the 4.41 Diameter gasket and are those prices for a set or each.  Thanks guys, Dave 

I forgot to add that the valvetrain noise is primarily the driver side of the car, pssenger side seems fine.

[firefighter3931]

Dave, i would try to increase the lifter preload to 3/4 of a turn....see what  happens. The fast rate cams tend to be a little noiseier and require more preload. Make sure your rocker shafts are installed correctly as well for proper oiling. The holes on the bottom of the rocker shaft should be pointed towards the exhaust side of the head.

Ron

[HDCharger]

Ron, can you message me or send me your email so I can try and send you the video.  Dave

[HDCharger]

I double and triple checked the oiling holes and we are good there.  I will add some more preload when I reassemble after changing those gaskets.  Dave

[firefighter3931]

Dave, i'll send ya a pm with my address.

Ron

[MOPARHOUND!]

Just brainstorming, but could the noise you are hearing be piston slap?

451s with 440 rods have short pistons, prone to moving around in the bores.

My 496 also has Ross pistons, and made some noise after the initial build.  Had the engine rebuilt, did a hone job, and now it is more pronounced.

Also have an 8.1 Liter Chebby (496 CID), and it sounds like a mild diesel at start up.  Others with the same engine have reported piston slap that was as loud as a Cummins.

[Chryco Psycho]

I assume you rotated the engine to TDC as you set the lash for each cylinder so each lifter was on the base circle on the lobe

[firefighter3931]

Dave, got the video....doesn't sound too healthy. Have a look at the pushrods to see if they're rubbing on the heads. Another question : on the adjusters...how many threads are showing below the rocker arm ? There should be 1-2 threads showing....no more.


Ron

[HDCharger]

Ron, with the 5/16 pushrods there is about 1 thread maybe less showing on the adjusters.  If I go 3/4 turn there will of course be a little more.  I've got 15psi check on the cooling system I am going to check that in the am before work and see if I still have it.  If not then my leak is while running or just residue left over from before I re-torqed the heads.   

[firefighter3931]

Dave, sounds like a plan....hopefully the cooling system holds pressure. I'm still a little concerned with the installed height of those valvesprings....i need to look further into that. The stock spec is 1.90 and yours are at 2.03  I will be in Vegas (leaving in the morning) for the Mopars at the strip show. Hopefully edelbrock has a booth set up there and i can confer with one of their techs. We'll figure it out one way or another....don't worry !  If you get a chance, pull a few pushrods and see if there is any signs of rubbing on the heads. Also....see if you can get a clearance measurement between the rocker & retainer at it's tightest position using a feeler guage. 


Ron

[HDCharger]

Will do.  Be careful, get some rest and have a safe trip.  Dave

[Chryco Psycho]

have fun , I wish I was going

[HDCharger]

Cryco, I actually set the lash before I put the intake back on so I could see the cam lobes .  Set the intake as the exhaust starts to open and the exhaust when the intake is almost closed.  I put a 16psi on the radiator and it bleeds down to the 13-14psi range overnight so I have still got a leak somewhere.  Its not visible so I am going to remove the heads and use some of the MLS gaskets and see if that does the trick.  Dave

[Chryco Psycho]

Well 2 psi overnight is not what I would call a leak the tester could leak that much overnight , but the oil in the pix looks too milky for fresh oil
you can`t go wrong using the MLS gaskets but it may not be nessisary yet anyway

[firefighter3931]

Dave, i spoke with the Edelbrock techs here in Vegas. The installed spring height should be 1.885 for the RPM heads. When you pull them....take them in to your local machineshop and have them looked over an checked for installed height and corrected if necessary. The tall installed height could very well be the source of your noise....retainer to rocker arm contact. 


Ron



Ps. Vegas is 

[HDCharger]

Ron, Thanks Buddy I appreciate the help.  Been to Vegas a couple times myself and it is pretty cool.  Changed the oil in the Charger and it appears to be doing good on the water leak problem.  She is not hardly as loud as it was but the noise is still there.  I'm going out right now to up the pre-load to 3/4 and see what that does.  Couldn't resist taking her down the road yesterday since all the family was over since my nephew leaves for the Air Force tomorrow.  Even ticking like a diesel she is wicked fast, but I am scared to run it much till I get this problem solved.  Dave

[torqueflite]

Hi, just looking at the pic's , i noticed you are still useing the factory rocker hold down clamps.
The 'Hughes Engines' clamp set gives you heeps more bearing surface on the sides of the rocker arms, they are nice hardened steel ones ,I've just fitted a set to my 383 ,
I did notice that some of my factory clamps were quite worn on the sides and the new set I put in allowed me to better position the rocker arms. Anyway could be somthing else to look at. cheers.

[HDCharger]

I Just bought a set of the Hughes clamps but they are wider and throw the rollers off to the side of the valve tip.  I am going to have to do some grinding on them to get them to work with the pro magnums.

[BrianShaughnessy]

I Just bought a set of the Hughes clamps but they are wider and throw the rollers off to the side of the valve tip.  I am going to have to do some grinding on them to get them to work with the pro magnums.

I bought them last year but I'm still looking at them.   I got a new tabletop belt / disc sander finally.    I'll probably work on them soon.