440 Build - Cam Question

[mikepmcs]

Ron,
Thank you, I actually woke up in the middle of the night and thought just that... "I don't have to remove a spring I can just measure with pressure relieved."
I already have the springs coming from Engle, but I will get the less expensive lifters.

v/r
Mike

[firefighter3931]

Mike, let us know what you find out. 


Ron

[mikepmcs]

You're gonna make me do this today aren't you.  Fair enough, I'll crack one and then I'll remove the cover and measure. Gotta have a beer when I work on the car so it will be this afternoon.

v/r

Mike

[69fourspd]

I thought I would post some pictures of the spring change.  This may help if any one else does this.  Everything was a piece of cake, but one small gotcha..... The compression tester hose I used had a schraeder valve in it.  You would need to remove this to get pressure in the cylinder to keep the valves in.  I almost made the mistake of putting the line in with this valve in which would have caused the valve to drop in the cylinder because on no pressure.  Also, the compressor tool was from Mancini - cost around $55.  FYI... I also measured the installed height of the new springs which are 1.9.

[mikepmcs]

I tore into it and decided to take pictures for reference as well as for you guys to look at them and provide feedback.  The valve train looks awful cruddy for a rebuild with less than 300 miles on it.  I don't do this everyday so it could be normal.  Looks that it has the correct 1.9 installed height. All I had was a tape measure but it was just under 2 or right at it from bottom of the spring seat to the top of the retainer and washer.

The rocker arms themselves looked worn out to me but I imagine this is normal.  Anyway if you guys wouldn't mind providing feedback I would appreciate it.  I cleaned this one up to get a pic.  It is the only one I removed.

Thanks in advance.  When I replace the valve cover gaskets, any recommendations on brand for a nice tight seal.  These have a ton of sealer on them and I imagine I will have to clean them up and replace them.  They felt like they were welded on there.

v/r
Mike

[mikepmcs]

couple more

[firefighter3931]

Mike, the spring height looks to be correct....the Engle springs will work as long as they're stock diameter. I'm assuming that they are....should be around 1.50 inches.

The Rocker arms look whipped....i would be replacing them with the HD stamped replacements and a new set of chrome moly pushrods. From what i'm seeing in the pic....looks like the engine was probably freshened up with new bearings,rings, seals etc...but they reused the original rocker arms. That is not uncommon....rebuild means different things to different people. 


Pushrods for 300+ lbs spring pressures :

http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/hydbchromemoly.html


HD reinforced rocker arms :

http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/mopbrbhyd15r.html



Ron

[firefighter3931]

  FYI... I also measured the installed height of the new springs which are 1.9.

Excellent....your machinist set them up right....good to go ! 



Ron

[mikepmcs]

Ron,
Roger wilco, I knew something didn't look right.  Thank you!

I'm debating getting the chrome rocker shafts as well, that can't hurt right.  I'm guessing that is the long shaft that all these rockers sit on correct?  Forgive my ignorance.  I don't like to use junk and like I said these look cruddy at the least so I imagine it can only improve things.

here is what is in my shopping cart

Item Unit
Price Quantity Subtotal   
Mancini Racing: Hyd. 383 - 400 Chrome Moly
  74.95   74.95  Remove
Rocker Arm Packages: MOPAR - "B/RB" Hydraulic, 1.5 ratio
  78.95   78.95  Remove
MOPAR - "B/RB" Hydraulic, 1.5 ratio: MRE Chrome Rocker Shafts
  34.95   34.95  Remove
Subtotal for manciniracing.com  188.85   

v/r
Mike

[firefighter3931]

Mike, that looks good. 

The only thing to check is that those chrome shafts are priced as a pair and not individually. 



Ron

[mikepmcs]

Got it
Thank you again.

Actually I will call on Monday to order this as I would rather deal on the phone.  This way I can find out for sure and make the proper purchase.

Thank you so much for your time.

v/r
Mike

[mikepmcs]

Anything wrong with these lifters?

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=CCA%2D822%2D16&autoview=sku

and these summit ones are $3 a piece.

I know you get what you pay for but summit has some pretty good stuff.

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=SUM%2DHT2011&autoview=sku

I'll consider any input on this and it is much appreciated.

v/r
Mike

[firefighter3931]

I like these :

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=CCA%2D824%2D16&autoview=sku

And use this :

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=CCA-103


And a bottle of this (or EOS) in the oil :

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=CCA-159



Ron

[mikepmcs]

OK, this is what I have ordered thus far, besides the k56 cam and 833 springs, as they are coming from Engle.

Reason i'm throwing up my shopping list is to make sure I haven't forgotten anything.

From Summit.

CCA-103  Assembly Lubricant, for Camshaft Break-In, 5/8 fluid oz., Each  $2.75 1  $2.75

CCA-159  Assembly Lubricant, Oil Supplement, for Camshaft Break-In, 12 fluid oz., Each  $15.99 1  $15.99

CCA-824-16  Lifters, Hydraulic Flat Tappet, Chrysler/Dodge/Plymouth, Set of 16  $95.88 1  $95.88

FEL-MS90175  Gaskets, Manifold, Intake, Stock Port, Chrysler, Big Block, B/RB, Set  $22.99 1  $22.99

FPP-1612  Valve Cover Gaskets, Rubber-Coated Fiber, Chrysler/Dodge/Plymouth, Big Block, Pair  $21.95 1  $21.95

From Mancini:

Mancini Racing: HYD 383-400 Chrome Moly P/R's

Rocker Arm Package.  Mopar B-RB Hydraulic, 1.5 ratio

Mopar B-RB Hydraulic, 1.5 ratio: MRE Chrome Rocker Shaft (x2) ...Good eyes Ron, had I been paying more attention I would have noticed they are sold individually, thanks for that gentle nudge.

I also asked the question to Mancini when I ordered the shafts ....Can I use my original spacers on the rocker shafts as I imagine they will not come with them or the bolts/hold downs.

I am looking to order a gear drive now but cannot afford the Milodon single fixed idle gear so I will be going with the floating dual gear.  I know, not as accurate but it should still do the job and I don't have to buy another cover.

Please let me know if I missed anything.  I'll be bidding on the Cam Degree kit on ebay here pretty quick so that's in the works as well.

When this change goes down I will start a thread, hopefully a step by step with pics, to show a novice in action and hopefully some lessons learned.  It won't be in the very near future but be on the look for it.

Wow, installing a cam isn't just a 1-2 deal at all.  So many other variables come in to play. I would have been lost and made costly, most of all, timely mistakes had it
not been for this site and the priceless knowledge I receive on a daily basis.  I appreciate the education and the patience as always.

Thank You
v/r
Mike

[firefighter3931]

Looks good Mike. One thing i would change is the intake manifold gasket....the 1214 has a heat crossover block off. This will keep the carb and fuel cooler, prevent fuel boil and vapor lock in the warm weather. If you don't have a carb insulating base gasket....get one of those too. 


http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=FPP%2D1214&autoview=sku

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=EDL%2D9265&N=700+4294925237+4294925236+4294845976+115&autoview=sku



Ron

[mikepmcs]

Done, amended my order just now. Thanks again Ron.

Have fun at the MATS this weekend.  I would have really liked to meet you guys.

v/r
Mike

[69fourspd]

firefighter,
One more question.  I am degreeing the cam, and the cam card says 7 degrees BTDC at .050.  My degree wheel is at 9 degrees.  I have read a lot of cams will opperate better at a different advance or retard depending on the profile.  What about this on.  Should I retard it to zero it out?

[Chryco Psycho]

retarding the cam 2* will move the RPM of the pwoerband up 200 rpm

[69fourspd]

So would you recommend keeping it where it is or advancing the cam so it will be at the 7 degree @ .050 spec per the cam card?
Also just because I confuse myself, does my reading of 9 degrees mean it is advanced and not retarded? Want to make sure so I dont confuse anyone else with what I say. 

Also, what should I torque the three cam bolts to?  I have the loctite ready and waiting...

[Chryco Psycho]

I may be wrong , trying to visualize what you a re doing
is it 7* BTDC or After TDC , I assume you are on the up ramp of the intake lobe on #! cyl ?
I would use 25 lbs for the cam bolts

[69fourspd]

Thats right.  7 degrees BTDC.  On the upramp of the intake at .050 I am reading 9 degrees BTDC. 

[Chryco Psycho]

so with it reading 9* BTDC at .050 lift the cam is advanced not retarded so that will move the powerband down 200 rpm or so
adjusting it  depends if the cam is exactly what you want to work with you combo or if the powerband is better suited to the gearing converter etc with the powerband 200 rpm lower

[firefighter3931]

The recommended intake centerline for the Voo doo grind is 106*.....I would shoot for between 105-107. A degree forward or back won't make much difference.


Ron

[firefighter3931]

Done, amended my order just now. Thanks again Ron.

Have fun at the MATS this weekend.  I would have really liked to meet you guys.

v/r
Mike

You're welcome Mike. It's too bad you couldn't make it out to Vegas but there will be other shows.  I'm sure we'll cross paths at some point in the future ! 


Ron

[mikepmcs]

Ron, didn't want to keep hijacking Paul G's thread so I 'll ask on here.

just got the timing gear you recommended and the valve spring removal tool from Mancini so i'm good to go there.  My questions now are.....  do i need to worry about cam gear bushings or can i just get the 4* advance from the crank gear supplied with the timing chain set? i'm guessing yes, but want to make sure.  only reason is if i can't dial it in within +/- 1* of the cam card right?  I'm hoping i don't need to get the 7/16 bit out and start widening the new cam gear to accommodate unless i absolutely have to.

couple other ??'s

lifter preload?  do i need to worry about this?  .020 t0 .060.  is this going to be an automatic deal or something I need to address?

rocker arm interference?

valve to piston clearance?

valve lash?  can this be adjusted with the whole shaft/rocker deal?  it seems like you just tighten em down and there is no adjustment?

can i just get a plane ticket and be your beeeoootch for a week!

Thanks for the info as always.

v/r
Mike