440 Build - Cam Question

[69fourspd]

Cams are a foreign language to me, so I hope someone can help.  I just got my engine out of the machine shop, and had them install the cam.  I used their judgement to create a good streetable engine with some decent power to have fun with.  Please tell me if you think this is to much cam, because what I am reading, this thing is going to be too lumpy, no vaccum, and need a high comp. ratio.  I should have ran this by Firefighter first 

Here are the specs:

69 440 .40 over
906 heads, 88cc chambers
9.5:1 speedpro pistons
rods shot peened, balanced
edelbrock performer rpm
Holley 750 4150
3.91 suregrip
15 inch tires
2800 stall still pending(need to buy, but will wait for comments. 
And now for the cam....

Cam lift INT. .317 EXH .317
Valve Lift INT. .476 EXH .476
Lobe Ctrs. INT. 106 EXH. 118
ADV. DUR. INT. 308 EXH. 308
.050 Dur. INT. 242 EXH 242
ADV. Timing 43BTC 85ABC 87BBC 41ATC
.050 Timing 15BTC 47AMC 59BBC 3ATC

Any comments would be extremely helpful.  If I need to change something, better to before it gets dropped in the Charger.  Thanks again. 

[mikepmcs]

You have 15 inch rims, what's the tire size(ie 295/50/R15 etc...)
Ron and all the other gurus will take the diameter into consideration for this package as well.
Is it a Mopar performance cam, if so you will most definitely be lacking some vac due to the wide lobe separation I believe.  Do you have power brakes and stuff that need this vac. 

v/r
Mike

[69fourspd]

I dont have the tires for the car yet.  I can be flexable with that depending on input.  The brakes were original power 4 wheel drum, but I am in process of converting to front disk.  Since I would need a different power booster, I am not opposed to making the car a non power brake car.  I have read on here it doesnt make that much difference.  The cam is not a mopar, it is an Elgin Pro-Stock. 

[firefighter3931]

I dont have the tires for the car yet.  I can be flexable with that depending on input.  The brakes were original power 4 wheel drum, but I am in process of converting to front disk.  Since I would need a different power booster, I am not opposed to making the car a non power brake car.  I have read on here it doesnt make that much difference.  The cam is not a mopar, it is an Elgin Pro-Stock. 

That must be a very old grind....i didn't recognize it from the specs. That cam will behave similar to the MP 509....actually slightly worse. The 106* lsa is designed for an open header exhaust system....it won't be happy with mufflers. To make that cam work well you would want at least 11:1 compression and a 4000 stall and 4.30 gears....preferably in a light a-body. Forget about running power brakes with this cam. It will also be a major PITA to tune....you'll be looking at modifying the circuits in your holley carb.

The "if it were me" answer is...no way would i run it in a street car. It only has .475 lift....waaay too much seat timing and lots of duration coupled with the tight lsa. Pro-stock seems like an appropriate name for such an "old school" race hydraulic profile. 


I see a new cam in your (very near) future 




Ron

[69fourspd]

I was figuring on that response, but hoping for the best.  What cam would you suggest to be a good reliable street performer, good for cruising, but has a little lump to it?

[firefighter3931]

Headers or exhaust manifolds ?


Ron


This one will work with both :

http://holley.com/60303.asp

PTC makes a nice 11in street converter for $250.00 which work work perfect with the rest of your build. For tires, a 28in 275/60 would be fine and keep hwy cruiseing speed rpm's at a reasonable level.

[69fourspd]

Thanks for all your help firefighter.  I will be running headers.  Also, I assume if I swap these cams out there will be no problems using the tappets that were installed since the engine has never been turned over, right?

[firefighter3931]

  Also, I assume if I swap these cams out there will be no problems using the tappets that were installed since the engine has never been turned over, right?

That is correct....just re-lube the lifter faces (not the sides) when you install the new cam.  What have you got on the 906's for valvesprings ?


Ron

[69fourspd]

Stock Springs

[squeakfinder]

I dont have the tires for the car yet.  I can be flexable with that depending on input.  The brakes were original power 4 wheel drum, but I am in process of converting to front disk.  Since I would need a different power booster, I am not opposed to making the car a non power brake car.  I have read on here it doesnt make that much difference.  The cam is not a mopar, it is an Elgin Pro-Stock. 

I'm not trying to get off topic but if you switch cams and decide to keep the brake booster it should work fine with front disc brakes. I have a 68 that came with power drum brakes, I put 75 Dodge Dart discs ALONG WITH THE PROPORTIONING VALVE FROM THAT CAR on mine. I did put a new brake booster on, but it was a stock replacement. Works great. Also, the proportioning valve bolted wright in place of the old one.

[firefighter3931]

Stock Springs

Assuming you mean stock replacement spec springs....you'll want to change them with the Voodoo cam upgrade. Comp Cams #911 valvesprings will work fine with that  profile. You can reuse you stock retainers and valve keepers. 


Ron

[69fourspd]

Thats right.  Stock replacement. Since the heads are bolted up, I was hoping to keep things the way they are.  I assume with some care I could swap the springs with the heads on.   Also, will I need any head work done with these springs? Just purchase the voodoo cam, the 911 springs, and I am good to go? Thanks!

[firefighter3931]

Thats right.  Stock replacement. Since the heads are bolted up, I was hoping to keep things the way they are.  I assume with some care I could swap the springs with the heads on.   Also, will I need any head work done with these springs? Just purchase the voodoo cam, the 911 springs, and I am good to go? Thanks!

Yes the 911's will bolt right on....no machine work required. The stock springs could go into coilbind and lock up the valvetrain....not good. Also it's important to have the right seat and open pressures to keep the valves from floating and the lifters from bouncing off the cam lobe. Bad things can happen when the valvetrain goes into float. 


The springs can be swapped with the heads on....just pressurize the cylinders with air to hold the valves up. Several companies make an "on head" valve spring compresser.


Ron

[69fourspd]

Great.  I will be putting in the order for parts today.  Thanks for everyones help.  I will keep you updated on my progress.

[oldkimmer]

I would say they sold u a cam they had kicking around awhile so they could get rid of it..........kim.........

[69fourspd]

Kim - I was thinking that very same thing.   
Maybe I can still use that cam to beat him with it...... J/K 

[MOPARHOUND!]

Those are some old-time grind spec's.  That cam used to be sold by FlatlanderRacing.com under their in-house box label, don't see it listed on their site anymore.  Found Elgin's website, but their catalog isn't on line yet.

The rate of lift is the slowest on my list of 135 off-the-shelf hydraulic cam grinds, and the lift @ .050" as a percentage of total lift is among the lowest.  Should last forever, but leaves A LOT to be desired in the performance department.

I'd be swapping cams.

[69fourspd]

The new Lunati Voodoo cam was delivered today.  I will be swapping them soon.  If anyone is in the market for the old cam, let me know.  Sounds like it isnt very desirable.   

[69fourspd]

Since this Cam is a three bolt, will I need a thrust bearing, or will the distributor keep it in?  Should I just be buying the two gears and chain(Double Roller Timing Set) and three bolts w/washers?

[firefighter3931]

No thrust button required when using a flat tappet camshaft. The tapered lifters keep the cam in it's proper location. The 3 bolts will need to have small heads.....similar to a header bolt. I use blue loctitie on cam bolts as well. 


Ron

[mikepmcs]

Thank you, answered that question for me.  Calling Engle right now with the info Ron gave me, hopefully I will sound educated enough to get this done.

K56  ground on a 110 lsa 125-130 seat and 300-325 open pressure springs.  Of course the compatible lifters too.

v/r
Mike

[mikepmcs]

Ok, talked to Chris at Engle.

I finally ordered the K56 on a 110 lsa.  Had to wait so long because I wanted a 3 bolt core because I'm adding a gear drive(yes, i like the noise).  A set of 833 springs which will achieve 125 seat with a 300 open. 

He was out of lifters and told me to call Isky to get them because he doesn't see them coming in soon.

Anyway, couple more questions here.  He asked about retainers and I went 

I told him everything was new about 300 miles ago so would stock retainers work?  He then said I need to know my installed height due to the fact that I need to realize 1.900 installed height with this application. He was adamant about this. I thought my installed height now would be in the 1.76 range?  He insists I measure what I have now but I don't want to tear it apart until I do the swap.  Any info on this would be great or education. I know the real answer is to disassemble and do this to measure my installed height now.  I imagine I would have to pull a spring and reinstall the retainer to do the proper measurement.  Thoughts please.....

He literally would not sell me a set of retainers until I measured mine so I wouldn't throw money away. Now that is some customer service right there.

Will the lunati lifters work just as well??  They are cheaper.

v/r
Mike

[firefighter3931]

Mike, the Lunati lifters will be fine. 

Why not just pull a valvecover and measure. Just loosen off the rockershaft to relieve the valvetrain pressure and measure the installed height....just measure from the spring seat to the bottom of the retainer. It should be very close to 1.90 as that is the stock spec for a BB mopar. 

I know the Comp #911 works fine with stock retainers and locks....and those would be compatible with the Engle stick. 



Ron

[69fourspd]

I actually installed the Comp #911 springs firefighter recommended today.  Everything went well and matched up with the stock retainers and locks.

[firefighter3931]

I actually installed the Comp #911 springs firefighter recommended today.  Everything went well and matched up with the stock retainers and locks.