440 Build - Cam Question

[69fourspd]

Cams are a foreign language to me, so I hope someone can help.  I just got my engine out of the machine shop, and had them install the cam.  I used their judgement to create a good streetable engine with some decent power to have fun with.  Please tell me if you think this is to much cam, because what I am reading, this thing is going to be too lumpy, no vaccum, and need a high comp. ratio.  I should have ran this by Firefighter first 

Here are the specs:

69 440 .40 over
906 heads, 88cc chambers
9.5:1 speedpro pistons
rods shot peened, balanced
edelbrock performer rpm
Holley 750 4150
3.91 suregrip
15 inch tires
2800 stall still pending(need to buy, but will wait for comments. 
And now for the cam....

Cam lift INT. .317 EXH .317
Valve Lift INT. .476 EXH .476
Lobe Ctrs. INT. 106 EXH. 118
ADV. DUR. INT. 308 EXH. 308
.050 Dur. INT. 242 EXH 242
ADV. Timing 43BTC 85ABC 87BBC 41ATC
.050 Timing 15BTC 47AMC 59BBC 3ATC

Any comments would be extremely helpful.  If I need to change something, better to before it gets dropped in the Charger.  Thanks again. 

[mikepmcs]

You have 15 inch rims, what's the tire size(ie 295/50/R15 etc...)
Ron and all the other gurus will take the diameter into consideration for this package as well.
Is it a Mopar performance cam, if so you will most definitely be lacking some vac due to the wide lobe separation I believe.  Do you have power brakes and stuff that need this vac. 

v/r
Mike

[69fourspd]

I dont have the tires for the car yet.  I can be flexable with that depending on input.  The brakes were original power 4 wheel drum, but I am in process of converting to front disk.  Since I would need a different power booster, I am not opposed to making the car a non power brake car.  I have read on here it doesnt make that much difference.  The cam is not a mopar, it is an Elgin Pro-Stock. 

[firefighter3931]

I dont have the tires for the car yet.  I can be flexable with that depending on input.  The brakes were original power 4 wheel drum, but I am in process of converting to front disk.  Since I would need a different power booster, I am not opposed to making the car a non power brake car.  I have read on here it doesnt make that much difference.  The cam is not a mopar, it is an Elgin Pro-Stock. 

That must be a very old grind....i didn't recognize it from the specs. That cam will behave similar to the MP 509....actually slightly worse. The 106* lsa is designed for an open header exhaust system....it won't be happy with mufflers. To make that cam work well you would want at least 11:1 compression and a 4000 stall and 4.30 gears....preferably in a light a-body. Forget about running power brakes with this cam. It will also be a major PITA to tune....you'll be looking at modifying the circuits in your holley carb.

The "if it were me" answer is...no way would i run it in a street car. It only has .475 lift....waaay too much seat timing and lots of duration coupled with the tight lsa. Pro-stock seems like an appropriate name for such an "old school" race hydraulic profile. 


I see a new cam in your (very near) future 




Ron

[69fourspd]

I was figuring on that response, but hoping for the best.  What cam would you suggest to be a good reliable street performer, good for cruising, but has a little lump to it?

[firefighter3931]

Headers or exhaust manifolds ?


Ron


This one will work with both :

http://holley.com/60303.asp

PTC makes a nice 11in street converter for $250.00 which work work perfect with the rest of your build. For tires, a 28in 275/60 would be fine and keep hwy cruiseing speed rpm's at a reasonable level.

[69fourspd]

Thanks for all your help firefighter.  I will be running headers.  Also, I assume if I swap these cams out there will be no problems using the tappets that were installed since the engine has never been turned over, right?

[firefighter3931]

  Also, I assume if I swap these cams out there will be no problems using the tappets that were installed since the engine has never been turned over, right?

That is correct....just re-lube the lifter faces (not the sides) when you install the new cam.  What have you got on the 906's for valvesprings ?


Ron

[69fourspd]

Stock Springs

[squeakfinder]

I dont have the tires for the car yet.  I can be flexable with that depending on input.  The brakes were original power 4 wheel drum, but I am in process of converting to front disk.  Since I would need a different power booster, I am not opposed to making the car a non power brake car.  I have read on here it doesnt make that much difference.  The cam is not a mopar, it is an Elgin Pro-Stock. 

I'm not trying to get off topic but if you switch cams and decide to keep the brake booster it should work fine with front disc brakes. I have a 68 that came with power drum brakes, I put 75 Dodge Dart discs ALONG WITH THE PROPORTIONING VALVE FROM THAT CAR on mine. I did put a new brake booster on, but it was a stock replacement. Works great. Also, the proportioning valve bolted wright in place of the old one.

[firefighter3931]

Stock Springs

Assuming you mean stock replacement spec springs....you'll want to change them with the Voodoo cam upgrade. Comp Cams #911 valvesprings will work fine with that  profile. You can reuse you stock retainers and valve keepers. 


Ron

[69fourspd]

Thats right.  Stock replacement. Since the heads are bolted up, I was hoping to keep things the way they are.  I assume with some care I could swap the springs with the heads on.   Also, will I need any head work done with these springs? Just purchase the voodoo cam, the 911 springs, and I am good to go? Thanks!

[firefighter3931]

Thats right.  Stock replacement. Since the heads are bolted up, I was hoping to keep things the way they are.  I assume with some care I could swap the springs with the heads on.   Also, will I need any head work done with these springs? Just purchase the voodoo cam, the 911 springs, and I am good to go? Thanks!

Yes the 911's will bolt right on....no machine work required. The stock springs could go into coilbind and lock up the valvetrain....not good. Also it's important to have the right seat and open pressures to keep the valves from floating and the lifters from bouncing off the cam lobe. Bad things can happen when the valvetrain goes into float. 


The springs can be swapped with the heads on....just pressurize the cylinders with air to hold the valves up. Several companies make an "on head" valve spring compresser.


Ron

[69fourspd]

Great.  I will be putting in the order for parts today.  Thanks for everyones help.  I will keep you updated on my progress.

[oldkimmer]

I would say they sold u a cam they had kicking around awhile so they could get rid of it..........kim.........

[69fourspd]

Kim - I was thinking that very same thing.   
Maybe I can still use that cam to beat him with it...... J/K 

[MOPARHOUND!]

Those are some old-time grind spec's.  That cam used to be sold by FlatlanderRacing.com under their in-house box label, don't see it listed on their site anymore.  Found Elgin's website, but their catalog isn't on line yet.

The rate of lift is the slowest on my list of 135 off-the-shelf hydraulic cam grinds, and the lift @ .050" as a percentage of total lift is among the lowest.  Should last forever, but leaves A LOT to be desired in the performance department.

I'd be swapping cams.

[69fourspd]

The new Lunati Voodoo cam was delivered today.  I will be swapping them soon.  If anyone is in the market for the old cam, let me know.  Sounds like it isnt very desirable.   

[69fourspd]

Since this Cam is a three bolt, will I need a thrust bearing, or will the distributor keep it in?  Should I just be buying the two gears and chain(Double Roller Timing Set) and three bolts w/washers?

[firefighter3931]

No thrust button required when using a flat tappet camshaft. The tapered lifters keep the cam in it's proper location. The 3 bolts will need to have small heads.....similar to a header bolt. I use blue loctitie on cam bolts as well. 


Ron

[mikepmcs]

Thank you, answered that question for me.  Calling Engle right now with the info Ron gave me, hopefully I will sound educated enough to get this done.

K56  ground on a 110 lsa 125-130 seat and 300-325 open pressure springs.  Of course the compatible lifters too.

v/r
Mike

[mikepmcs]

Ok, talked to Chris at Engle.

I finally ordered the K56 on a 110 lsa.  Had to wait so long because I wanted a 3 bolt core because I'm adding a gear drive(yes, i like the noise).  A set of 833 springs which will achieve 125 seat with a 300 open. 

He was out of lifters and told me to call Isky to get them because he doesn't see them coming in soon.

Anyway, couple more questions here.  He asked about retainers and I went 

I told him everything was new about 300 miles ago so would stock retainers work?  He then said I need to know my installed height due to the fact that I need to realize 1.900 installed height with this application. He was adamant about this. I thought my installed height now would be in the 1.76 range?  He insists I measure what I have now but I don't want to tear it apart until I do the swap.  Any info on this would be great or education. I know the real answer is to disassemble and do this to measure my installed height now.  I imagine I would have to pull a spring and reinstall the retainer to do the proper measurement.  Thoughts please.....

He literally would not sell me a set of retainers until I measured mine so I wouldn't throw money away. Now that is some customer service right there.

Will the lunati lifters work just as well??  They are cheaper.

v/r
Mike

[firefighter3931]

Mike, the Lunati lifters will be fine. 

Why not just pull a valvecover and measure. Just loosen off the rockershaft to relieve the valvetrain pressure and measure the installed height....just measure from the spring seat to the bottom of the retainer. It should be very close to 1.90 as that is the stock spec for a BB mopar. 

I know the Comp #911 works fine with stock retainers and locks....and those would be compatible with the Engle stick. 



Ron

[69fourspd]

I actually installed the Comp #911 springs firefighter recommended today.  Everything went well and matched up with the stock retainers and locks.

[firefighter3931]

I actually installed the Comp #911 springs firefighter recommended today.  Everything went well and matched up with the stock retainers and locks.

[mikepmcs]

Ron,
Thank you, I actually woke up in the middle of the night and thought just that... "I don't have to remove a spring I can just measure with pressure relieved."
I already have the springs coming from Engle, but I will get the less expensive lifters.

v/r
Mike

[firefighter3931]

Mike, let us know what you find out. 


Ron

[mikepmcs]

You're gonna make me do this today aren't you.  Fair enough, I'll crack one and then I'll remove the cover and measure. Gotta have a beer when I work on the car so it will be this afternoon.

v/r

Mike

[69fourspd]

I thought I would post some pictures of the spring change.  This may help if any one else does this.  Everything was a piece of cake, but one small gotcha..... The compression tester hose I used had a schraeder valve in it.  You would need to remove this to get pressure in the cylinder to keep the valves in.  I almost made the mistake of putting the line in with this valve in which would have caused the valve to drop in the cylinder because on no pressure.  Also, the compressor tool was from Mancini - cost around $55.  FYI... I also measured the installed height of the new springs which are 1.9.

[mikepmcs]

I tore into it and decided to take pictures for reference as well as for you guys to look at them and provide feedback.  The valve train looks awful cruddy for a rebuild with less than 300 miles on it.  I don't do this everyday so it could be normal.  Looks that it has the correct 1.9 installed height. All I had was a tape measure but it was just under 2 or right at it from bottom of the spring seat to the top of the retainer and washer.

The rocker arms themselves looked worn out to me but I imagine this is normal.  Anyway if you guys wouldn't mind providing feedback I would appreciate it.  I cleaned this one up to get a pic.  It is the only one I removed.

Thanks in advance.  When I replace the valve cover gaskets, any recommendations on brand for a nice tight seal.  These have a ton of sealer on them and I imagine I will have to clean them up and replace them.  They felt like they were welded on there.

v/r
Mike

[mikepmcs]

couple more

[firefighter3931]

Mike, the spring height looks to be correct....the Engle springs will work as long as they're stock diameter. I'm assuming that they are....should be around 1.50 inches.

The Rocker arms look whipped....i would be replacing them with the HD stamped replacements and a new set of chrome moly pushrods. From what i'm seeing in the pic....looks like the engine was probably freshened up with new bearings,rings, seals etc...but they reused the original rocker arms. That is not uncommon....rebuild means different things to different people. 


Pushrods for 300+ lbs spring pressures :

http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/hydbchromemoly.html


HD reinforced rocker arms :

http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/mopbrbhyd15r.html



Ron

[firefighter3931]

  FYI... I also measured the installed height of the new springs which are 1.9.

Excellent....your machinist set them up right....good to go ! 



Ron

[mikepmcs]

Ron,
Roger wilco, I knew something didn't look right.  Thank you!

I'm debating getting the chrome rocker shafts as well, that can't hurt right.  I'm guessing that is the long shaft that all these rockers sit on correct?  Forgive my ignorance.  I don't like to use junk and like I said these look cruddy at the least so I imagine it can only improve things.

here is what is in my shopping cart

Item Unit
Price Quantity Subtotal   
Mancini Racing: Hyd. 383 - 400 Chrome Moly
  74.95   74.95  Remove
Rocker Arm Packages: MOPAR - "B/RB" Hydraulic, 1.5 ratio
  78.95   78.95  Remove
MOPAR - "B/RB" Hydraulic, 1.5 ratio: MRE Chrome Rocker Shafts
  34.95   34.95  Remove
Subtotal for manciniracing.com  188.85   

v/r
Mike

[firefighter3931]

Mike, that looks good. 

The only thing to check is that those chrome shafts are priced as a pair and not individually. 



Ron

[mikepmcs]

Got it
Thank you again.

Actually I will call on Monday to order this as I would rather deal on the phone.  This way I can find out for sure and make the proper purchase.

Thank you so much for your time.

v/r
Mike

[mikepmcs]

Anything wrong with these lifters?

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=CCA%2D822%2D16&autoview=sku

and these summit ones are $3 a piece.

I know you get what you pay for but summit has some pretty good stuff.

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=SUM%2DHT2011&autoview=sku

I'll consider any input on this and it is much appreciated.

v/r
Mike

[firefighter3931]

I like these :

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=CCA%2D824%2D16&autoview=sku

And use this :

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=CCA-103


And a bottle of this (or EOS) in the oil :

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=CCA-159



Ron

[mikepmcs]

OK, this is what I have ordered thus far, besides the k56 cam and 833 springs, as they are coming from Engle.

Reason i'm throwing up my shopping list is to make sure I haven't forgotten anything.

From Summit.

CCA-103  Assembly Lubricant, for Camshaft Break-In, 5/8 fluid oz., Each  $2.75 1  $2.75

CCA-159  Assembly Lubricant, Oil Supplement, for Camshaft Break-In, 12 fluid oz., Each  $15.99 1  $15.99

CCA-824-16  Lifters, Hydraulic Flat Tappet, Chrysler/Dodge/Plymouth, Set of 16  $95.88 1  $95.88

FEL-MS90175  Gaskets, Manifold, Intake, Stock Port, Chrysler, Big Block, B/RB, Set  $22.99 1  $22.99

FPP-1612  Valve Cover Gaskets, Rubber-Coated Fiber, Chrysler/Dodge/Plymouth, Big Block, Pair  $21.95 1  $21.95

From Mancini:

Mancini Racing: HYD 383-400 Chrome Moly P/R's

Rocker Arm Package.  Mopar B-RB Hydraulic, 1.5 ratio

Mopar B-RB Hydraulic, 1.5 ratio: MRE Chrome Rocker Shaft (x2) ...Good eyes Ron, had I been paying more attention I would have noticed they are sold individually, thanks for that gentle nudge.

I also asked the question to Mancini when I ordered the shafts ....Can I use my original spacers on the rocker shafts as I imagine they will not come with them or the bolts/hold downs.

I am looking to order a gear drive now but cannot afford the Milodon single fixed idle gear so I will be going with the floating dual gear.  I know, not as accurate but it should still do the job and I don't have to buy another cover.

Please let me know if I missed anything.  I'll be bidding on the Cam Degree kit on ebay here pretty quick so that's in the works as well.

When this change goes down I will start a thread, hopefully a step by step with pics, to show a novice in action and hopefully some lessons learned.  It won't be in the very near future but be on the look for it.

Wow, installing a cam isn't just a 1-2 deal at all.  So many other variables come in to play. I would have been lost and made costly, most of all, timely mistakes had it
not been for this site and the priceless knowledge I receive on a daily basis.  I appreciate the education and the patience as always.

Thank You
v/r
Mike

[firefighter3931]

Looks good Mike. One thing i would change is the intake manifold gasket....the 1214 has a heat crossover block off. This will keep the carb and fuel cooler, prevent fuel boil and vapor lock in the warm weather. If you don't have a carb insulating base gasket....get one of those too. 


http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=FPP%2D1214&autoview=sku

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=EDL%2D9265&N=700+4294925237+4294925236+4294845976+115&autoview=sku



Ron

[mikepmcs]

Done, amended my order just now. Thanks again Ron.

Have fun at the MATS this weekend.  I would have really liked to meet you guys.

v/r
Mike

[69fourspd]

firefighter,
One more question.  I am degreeing the cam, and the cam card says 7 degrees BTDC at .050.  My degree wheel is at 9 degrees.  I have read a lot of cams will opperate better at a different advance or retard depending on the profile.  What about this on.  Should I retard it to zero it out?

[Chryco Psycho]

retarding the cam 2* will move the RPM of the pwoerband up 200 rpm

[69fourspd]

So would you recommend keeping it where it is or advancing the cam so it will be at the 7 degree @ .050 spec per the cam card?
Also just because I confuse myself, does my reading of 9 degrees mean it is advanced and not retarded? Want to make sure so I dont confuse anyone else with what I say. 

Also, what should I torque the three cam bolts to?  I have the loctite ready and waiting...

[Chryco Psycho]

I may be wrong , trying to visualize what you a re doing
is it 7* BTDC or After TDC , I assume you are on the up ramp of the intake lobe on #! cyl ?
I would use 25 lbs for the cam bolts

[69fourspd]

Thats right.  7 degrees BTDC.  On the upramp of the intake at .050 I am reading 9 degrees BTDC. 

[Chryco Psycho]

so with it reading 9* BTDC at .050 lift the cam is advanced not retarded so that will move the powerband down 200 rpm or so
adjusting it  depends if the cam is exactly what you want to work with you combo or if the powerband is better suited to the gearing converter etc with the powerband 200 rpm lower

[firefighter3931]

The recommended intake centerline for the Voo doo grind is 106*.....I would shoot for between 105-107. A degree forward or back won't make much difference.


Ron

[firefighter3931]

Done, amended my order just now. Thanks again Ron.

Have fun at the MATS this weekend.  I would have really liked to meet you guys.

v/r
Mike

You're welcome Mike. It's too bad you couldn't make it out to Vegas but there will be other shows.  I'm sure we'll cross paths at some point in the future ! 


Ron

[mikepmcs]

Ron, didn't want to keep hijacking Paul G's thread so I 'll ask on here.

just got the timing gear you recommended and the valve spring removal tool from Mancini so i'm good to go there.  My questions now are.....  do i need to worry about cam gear bushings or can i just get the 4* advance from the crank gear supplied with the timing chain set? i'm guessing yes, but want to make sure.  only reason is if i can't dial it in within +/- 1* of the cam card right?  I'm hoping i don't need to get the 7/16 bit out and start widening the new cam gear to accommodate unless i absolutely have to.

couple other ??'s

lifter preload?  do i need to worry about this?  .020 t0 .060.  is this going to be an automatic deal or something I need to address?

rocker arm interference?

valve to piston clearance?

valve lash?  can this be adjusted with the whole shaft/rocker deal?  it seems like you just tighten em down and there is no adjustment?

can i just get a plane ticket and be your beeeoootch for a week!

Thanks for the info as always.

v/r
Mike

[Chryco Psycho]

moving the crank gear works the same as moving the cam gear so no problem , as long as your machinist set the valve tip height properly no worrys with lifter preload & no the lash is not adjustable with shafts valve to piston clearance can be checked with the piston 6* before & 6* after tdc & a dial guage , you can compress the valve spring & measure the distance before touching the piston 6* before is exhuast , 6* after is intake

[mikepmcs]

Thanks Neil.

v/r
Mike

[firefighter3931]

Mike, the method Neil described above is the most accurate way to check P/V clearnce or you can use the clay method. You will have plenty of clearance with that cam. 


Ron

[mikepmcs]

Thanks Ron,
this will be an engine in, heads on install.  I know, not the best situation but, i don't want to pull or lift the motor if i don't have to.  Just for info, clearance is good up to .520 ish, on a stock motor,  did I hear that somewhere or did I just dream it.

I was just wanting you guys to verify what I was hoping to be already true after research and info from here. 

I appreciate the info as always.

All I need now is a degree kit and i'm ready.   

v/r
Mike

[Chryco Psycho]

every engine is different but my experience is 520 is about where the retainer will get close to the valve guide & need more clearance , generally most piston combos are also good to .520 but each piston is different & especially with milled heads & or decks shoudl be checked , higher lift cams used with pistons with no valve reliefs will be the tightest combination

[firefighter3931]

  Duration has more of an impact than lift does so a longer duration cam will create more headaches. The 223*.050 k56 is conservative so it will fit with lots of P/V clearance. The .510-.520 is a good rule of thumb to follow for retainer to guide clearance. 



Ron