Fuel Injection?

[Arkgl01]

Is fuel Injection worth the money and time? Anyone ever have it on a charger?

Mark

[aifilaw]

a properly tuned fuel injection system is well worth it....*depending on cost*.
Which is different depending on the person and how much they are willing too spend.

Think of it this way, it took me about 30 man-hours to properly and correctly tune my carberator, that would have been reduced to about 5-10 man hours with $100 worth in dyno pulls for the WOT stuff....most of that was spent tweaking it for perfect fuel efficiency on the road...i still had to hack around with the timing as well to keep it from popping a bit when decelerating, correct cam for the squirters, correct squirter size...if you have a vacuum secondary carb that takes more time and work....in the end, it was as close to perfect as it could get....and probably about 5% less efficient than a fuel injection system would have been from the very start + $100 for dyno pulls to tune it to WOT.

Due to the price of a carb, time, tuning, et cetera...i'd say if you can get a fuel injection system installed and tuned for less than $1,500 I'd do it in a heartbeat.

[d72hemi]

In short, YES. I know the the member Defiance, has done so. This is a link to his information http://www.sounddomain.com/ride/2324498. I know that he has changed his setup a bit, because he sold the intake and TB setup with the MS 1 box, to member DKN1997. DKN1997 ended up not having the time to install it on his motor, so he sold it to me, via E-bay. I am still not home yet, but I should able to start on my 440 convertion in April or May. But knowing how often my schedule changes, I would not be surprised if I was delayed longer. www.msefi.com has enough information to make your head hurt. LOL. It is packed with EFI experts that can answer any question you could think of, but I recommend reading the manuals first. You know how people get "upset" on this forum when someone asks a common question without trying to search for it, the MSefi guys have similar reactions to questions covered in the manuals. Although If you have questions about what you are reading in the manual (need clarification) ask away, I know I had a ton of questions. There are updates (new hardware and firmware) expected to come out this year to allow sequential fuel injection and Coil Over Plug (COP) ignition, but you can still do amazing thing at this time.

Ian

[aifilaw]

after a brief look, it seems the whole system all said and done will probably cost you around $1,000 to $1,500 after all components, and probably a good 40 hours worth of work depending on how much you spend $, and good you are at learning.... looks like I will probably be going down this path as well.

[Rolling_Thunder]

Well - I can tell you fuel injection can be affordable...    or it can be expensive...       I went overboard on all my system...    1000cfm throttle body, Aeromotive fuel pump, edelbrock intake, aeromotive fuel filters....     the only bargain piece is the controller (MegaSquirt II)...      I have my engine in the car now and am running the fuel lines tonight actually...     initial start up should be within 2 weeks.

[aifilaw]

excellent, now I have someone to hammer with questions when I do mine...

[68ChargerJMP]

How much do you have in your setup as of now Thunder?

[Chryco Psycho]

Edeelbrock has the Victor 440 intake all ready for multi port EFI with rails & hold downs included for an unbeatable price part # 29546
, I am setting up a 440 with the SDSEFI [www.sdsefi.com] computer all that is needed is a return line , regulater , fuel pump & throttle body to make it run

[aifilaw]

what about the throttle body and throttle valve assemebly to be attached to a TPS?

[firefighter3931]

Edeelbrock has the Victor 440 intake all ready for multi port EFI with rails & hold downs included for an unbeatable price part # 29546
, I am setting up a 440 with the SDSEFI [www.sdsefi.com] computer all that is needed is a return line , regulater , fuel pump & throttle body to make it run

Neil....how does the hood clearance look ? That Victor is a tall manifold.  What are you doing for a cam ? I know those FI boxes don't work well with cam profiles that have lots of overlap & duration.


Thanks, Ron

[aifilaw]

really would depend on the programming, I'd assume given their range of products that they have allowance for that...

the reason fuel injection systems do so horribly with large cam overlap at low RPM's is when they run in closed loop mode (the computer is updating the A/F ration based on the exhaust o2 sensors), since a lot of fuel is exiting the exhaust, and being blown back into the intake, et cetera, the engine tryies to run vry rich to compensate for what it thinks it is seeing.

Based on what I have seen with this particular system it is running in open loop mode the entire time...which means it does not pay active attention to the o2 sensors at all, it does not need them, it bases it's A/F ratio on the RPM, possibly MAP sensor(engine load), and a few other things, but it is not effected by anything actively...

Therefore the A/F ratio you plug in for idle and low RPM will remain the same and it will not try to compensate for the camshaft overlap which means it will run perfectly throughout the RPM range as long as you program it that way to begin with....

The problem occurs with open loop mode due to a few things, change of altitude will basically mean the car needs to be reprogrammed with a change in A/F across the board being the main issue.

[firefighter3931]

Thanks Aifilaw....that makes sense. Good info !  There was a local guy who purchased the Edelbrock efi and was having troubles with it....until the swapped out the cam for one with more idle vacuum. He said it ran better afterwards. Hopefully the newer generation efi setups will be more user friendly with big cams.


Ron

[aifilaw]

having the two modes is very good....but there are downsides too both....you can't just enter closed loop mode, because it takes quite a while for the o2 sensors to warm up and start working....therefore you need an open loop mode which is a hardcoded A/F ratio.

What most EFI programmed systems do, is they run open loop mode (a default tune, usually rich) for startup until the coolant temperature reaches a certain level, then they know the o2's will be working so they can run closed loop...which monitors the MAP, and o2's and several other sensors so that it can achieve perfect spark advance and perfect A/F ratio...unfortunately it can be fooled by a cam not operating in its range...

What no one has done thus far that I know of, is made the PCM module computer capable of entering open loop mode when below a certain RPM, and closed loop mode above a certain RPM....

Of course WOT is typically a type of open loop mode, since most non-wideband sensors read something completely different when under WOT usage.

[Rolling_Thunder]

How much do you have in your setup as of now Thunder?

MSII computer, harness, software, IAT sensor, ECT sensor, MAP sensor = $450.00
Edelbrock Victor 440 Intake, hold downs, rails = free (I know people)
Aeromotive A1000 Fuel Pump = $300
Fuel Filters = $160
New 36lb/hr fuel injectors = $150
Fuel Line and fittings = $400
Fuel Pressure Regulator = $100
Crank trigger, coil packs, trigger wheel = $140
MSD throttle 1000 cfm Body = $250 (new in box)

So all together I have roughtly  $1950.00 into it...    but I have everything i need at this point and have it installed (mostly). Keep im mind I went Overboard on alot of things due to my hopes of adding a pro-charger in the coming years...    the fuel filters, fuel pump, and fuel lines coule be a major point of price savings...    Walbro pumps = ~$90.00   -    filters = ~$35.00    so instead of $660 you could have a street friendly sysetem for under $200.00...

I am also doing everything the hard way. I am running a crank trigger EDIS set up for one...    making an extra ~$150.00 just for that...       EFI can be done on a budget...    it just takes alot of researching parts and knowing what you need...    EBAY is your friend...     I saved BIG on my throttle body, injectors, and fuel pump on EBAY...       

As i stated earlier - I should have my car up and running by the first weekend in May (Spring Fling) so if you're around - feel free to stop by my Shop's booth and say hello...     We'll be the large group of cars under the trees in the back of the swap area.


PS> Alot of overlap on a cam shouldnt be a problem with a open/closed loop system...     tuning becomes a little more involved but hey...    thats the fun part.. 

[Troy]

Edeelbrock has the Victor 440 intake all ready for multi port EFI with rails & hold downs included for an unbeatable price part # 29546
, I am setting up a 440 with the SDSEFI [www.sdsefi.com] computer all that is needed is a return line , regulater , fuel pump & throttle body to make it run

Neil....how does the hood clearance look ? That Victor is a tall manifold.  What are you doing for a cam ? I know those FI boxes don't work well with cam profiles that have lots of overlap & duration.


Thanks, Ron

As far as the hood clearance, you can buy throttle bodies that are less than 1.5" tall. The MSD one that Rolling_Thunder has should be right around that height.

Troy

[Rolling_Thunder]

Edeelbrock has the Victor 440 intake all ready for multi port EFI with rails & hold downs included for an unbeatable price part # 29546
, I am setting up a 440 with the SDSEFI [www.sdsefi.com] computer all that is needed is a return line , regulater , fuel pump & throttle body to make it run

Neil....how does the hood clearance look ? That Victor is a tall manifold.  What are you doing for a cam ? I know those FI boxes don't work well with cam profiles that have lots of overlap & duration.


Thanks, Ron

As far as the hood clearance, you can buy throttle bodies that are less than 1.5" tall. The MSD one that Rolling_Thunder has should be right around that height.

Troy

yep...    ~1.5" tall...    heres the problem though...    swing the linkage to WOT and the linkage is ~2" tall...    so I am going to need to modify my drop base air cleaner...    with a modified drop base i think i can still fit a 3" element.

[aifilaw]

why not simply pipe your intake to the front and put the cleaner and intake there?

[Rolling_Thunder]

why not simply pipe your intake to the front and put the cleaner and intake there?

I could - but i honestly dont really like the look of that...    worse case scenario i could do that...    but im going to try modifying my base before i do that...      personal preference.

[Chryco Psycho]

we are still setting it up , with the much shorter Throttlel body there shoul;d ba a ton of hood clearance
we will get the engine running shortly with a carb & get a vacuum reading , the cam is a mid street roller .600 lift with the Eddy Victor heads , Yup same engine , we have the heads on with operation valve train now , we should be able top run a map sensor , if not we will do a mass air system  , waiting to get it running to see what we need to order to finish the EFi

[firefighter3931]

we are still setting it up , with the much shorter Throttlel body there shoul;d ba a ton of hood clearance
we will get the engine running shortly with a carb & get a vacuum reading , the cam is a mid street roller .600 lift with the Eddy Victor heads , Yup same engine , we have the heads on with operation valve train now , we should be able top run a map sensor , if not we will do a mass air system  , waiting to get it running to see what we need to order to finish the EFi

Thanks for the update  What did you end up doing for the rocker arms ? Apparently this is an issue in terms of availability....some wierd offset from what i've heard. 



Ron

[Rolling_Thunder]

mounted up my fuel pump and fuel filters today - running the fuel lines and pressure regulator currently...    should be into wiring the system by next week.

[Chryco Psycho]

Hughes rockers , Not really my choice, the customer ordered them , then I had to have custom width billet hold down blocks made to position the rockers correctly , at this point the pushrod would not clear the head so the heads had to be removed & clearanced to get pushrods in / through , then had to make custom length pushrods with different length for intake & exhaust

[firefighter3931]

Hughes rockers , Not really my choice, the customer ordered them , then I had to have custom width billet hold down blocks made to position the rockers correctly , at this point the pushrod would not clear the head so the heads had to be removed & clearanced to get pushrods in / through , then had to make custom length pushrods with different length for intake & exhaust

Geez.....what a pain in the AZZ !    Edelbrock should have had rockers available before releasing these heads !  I've read that T&D is making a rocker arm exclusively for this application but that is a $1000.00 set of rocker arms.   

In the latest MM mag ; the writeup for the 500ci pump gas challenge show's the team from hitech motorsports in minnesota with a victor headed combo using (harland sharp) .650 offset intake rockers. No mention of any mods to the heads though for pushrod clearance.....

Thanks for the update Neil 


Ron

[kamkuda]

Any ever thought about using the Ford trottle body and injectors setup.  They seem to work very well and used parts are very common.

[Rolling_Thunder]

I am using ford style injectors...      AKA  Bosch style...        throttle bodies...     most Ford TBs are verticle mounted and can not be used on a 4bbl style intake without an adapter elbow...       so a universal 4bbl TB is easier to set up and maintains the semi old-school look.

[aifilaw]

Hughes rockers , Not really my choice, the customer ordered them , then I had to have custom width billet hold down blocks made to position the rockers correctly , at this point the pushrod would not clear the head so the heads had to be removed & clearanced to get pushrods in / through , then had to make custom length pushrods with different length for intake & exhaust

So what are the options to obtain the same results without the pushrod and valvetrain issues that the edelbrock victors seem to br presenting, will the edelbrock FI manifold mate up to an INDY EZ, or the traditional Eddies?

In other words neil, if you were going to do this, better/cheaper, what route would you take?

[kamkuda]

I am using ford style injectors...      AKA  Bosch style...        throttle bodies...     most Ford TBs are verticle mounted and can not be used on a 4bbl style intake without an adapter elbow...       so a universal 4bbl TB is easier to set up and maintains the semi old-school look.

That Ford TB makes for a nice entry for a Procharger set-up

[Chryco Psycho]

Edlebrock designed the heads using the not available Mopar offset rockers ... good move , someone should have checked with Mopar if they ever planned to make 1 more set before doing this

There are things I like about the Victor head , it has the heart shaped chambers & they are 76 cc range to compensate for the heat loss to alum , they do not need spacer to use std 440 intakes even with the raised ports , there is enough meat to port ot max wedge size to increase flow potential & are supposed to flow with the 440 -1 heads when ported to MW size

Down side the rockers & pushrods are a pain to fit & the valley Tray Made by Edlebrick for these heads do not have any of the 4 bolt holes on each side drilled to line up with each other

we will fire this engine with a 950 HP carb & get it broken & dialed in Before installing the EFI so we can get a vacuum measuremnet to see if a map sensor will work or if we have to go to a mass air system [ford] hopefully we can fire it up next week , I am not sure if it will be dynoed before & after the EFI , I want to to see what gains or losses are realized going to EFI , My customer may or may not want to do this . The problem with The Ford system is clearance , the get a marginally big 92 mm T body on we need a 90* adapter which is 6" tall , we have 4" to the hood so this would require a scoop which we are trying to avoid at this point , Accufab has a 1200 cfm 4 bbl throttle plate that is 1 3/4" thick so we are going that route

The EFI intake is the Victor so yes it will bolt onto any Std 440 head but cannot be ported out to MW size Although I think Edle was trying  to as the ports on the left side are all 1/4 taller than where they need to be ... typical eddy quality ...not  ... nice core shift

I am assembling a 451 with EZ heads shortly so we will see how they compare to the Victors for install problems   

Ron I read the article in MM these comic books pizz me off they make the bolt on LOOK easy & do not even mention the problems , there is 1 pic looking at the combustion chamber of the head & you can clearly see a notch in the deck of the head for pushrod clearance , these notches Do Not exist as cast so they obviously had to do the same clearancing that I had to do to get the pushrod past the head ... no Eddy sponsorship $$ for that mag ........ yeah right probably Eddy paid dearly to have the article in the mag & to make sure the Issues are overlooked so they can sell a ton more of their junk ... if eddy woudl just do Some R&D Before pumping this stuff out I would not be slamming their stuff all the time , how is a driveway weekend hot rodder supposed to "bolt" this stuff on , the Custom made CNC rocker holddowns & spacers cost us $250 alone not to mention custom building pushrods & the cost of the "correct offset " Hughes rockers which do line up with the valve & pushrod hole reasonably well with the custom hold downs in place , the Hughes hold downs are off by 1/4 "

[Rolling_Thunder]

Chryco...       if the MAP sensor wont work...     and you need to go the MAF route...    try calling MassFloEFI...    they make a Mass air flow sensor that mounts on top of a 4bbl throttle body, that might be the way around using the 90* elbow and necessitating a hood scoop     

[Chryco Psycho]

Thanks
the other route is a sealed air cleaner with a snorkle to mount a mass air flow

[firefighter3931]

Ron I read the article in MM these comic books pizz me off they make the bolt on LOOK easy & do not even mention the problems , there is 1 pic looking at the combustion chamber of the head & you can clearly see a notch in the deck of the head for pushrod clearance , these notches Do Not exist as cast so they obviously had to do the same clearancing that I had to do to get the pushrod past the head ... no Eddy sponsorship $$ for that mag ........ yeah right probably Eddy paid dearly to have the article in the mag & to make sure the Issues are overlooked so they can sell a ton more of their junk ... if eddy woudl just do Some R&D Before pumping this stuff out I would not be slamming their stuff all the time , how is a driveway weekend hot rodder supposed to "bolt" this stuff on , the Custom made CNC rocker holddowns & spacers cost us $250 alone not to mention custom building pushrods & the cost of the "correct offset " Hughes rockers which do line up with the valve & pushrod hole reasonably well with the custom hold downs in place , the Hughes hold downs are off by 1/4 "

Neil, i agree with your comments on the MM articles....there is lots of missing information. Edelbrock should have shipped some heads to the various rocker arm manufacturers before releasing the new head. Sounds like Hughes dropped the ball too on this deal. Some interesting reading on valvetrain geometry issues with the Victors :

http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=Racer&Number=3365174&page=0&fpart=1



Ron

[Chryco Psycho]

well we beat this one so it will be running shortly

[firefighter3931]

well we beat this one so it will be running shortly

Is it going on the pump ?


Ron

[Chryco Psycho]

what do you mean ??

[rob9593]

I would talk to Chuck at Best Machine.......I know he has worked with the 'Big Stuff' systems..I'm not so sre the eddy systems are all that great depending on the level of performance you're trying to achieve, or if you just want the convenience of fuel injection.... The 'Big Stuff' stuff aint cheap, but it sure looks nice

[aifilaw]

what do you mean ??

he probably means will it run on pump gas?

personally I'd like to hear some numbers after you get it off the dyno and tuned, to say nothing of mpg

[Chryco Psycho]

I am not even considering an eddy EFI system , just using the intake , the rest will not have the eddy name anywhere near ti

[firefighter3931]

what do you mean ??

Pump = Dyno.....sorry for the slang. 


Ron