500 stroker or 440 with eddys ?

[jg68]

Help me decide , Ok, i was thinking of getting a 500 stroker kit from 440source, i was looking at the whole kit for around 1600.00 balanced (comes with rings & bearings), i'll have to run my stock 452s for awhile because i can't afford both eddys & stroker (i know the irons will be a major restriction on a 500) so i got to thinking, should i just put some TRWs 6 pack pistons in the 440 & some eddy heads with possibly some new H-Beam rods or stroke it, the engine is a fairly fresh .030 build (not by me) & only has around 5-6000 miles, but its a smogger with badger pistons, had a head off not to long ago do to a bad guide (the cylinders look really nice) so i'm hoping the new pistons should work fine with just a hone, but i will mic them to be shure, i started a new job & got a little extra on the income tax, so its burning a whole in the ole' pocket 

Will i be happy with a the 500 cubes & stock irons (compression will be around 9.5.1) or a 10.5.1 440 with eddy heads ?

So what would you'll do !!

I'm heading to work shortly, so i'll be back in the morning, give me your thoughts 

[firefighter3931]

Help me decide , Ok, i was thinking of getting a 500 stroker kit from 440source, i was looking at the whole kit for around 1600.00 balanced (comes with rings & bearings), i'll have to run my stock 452s for awhile because i can't afford both eddys & stroker (i know the irons will be a major restriction on a 500) so i got to thinking, should i just put some TRWs 6 pack pistons in the 440 & some eddy heads with possibly some new H-Beam rods or stroke it, the engine is a fairly fresh .030 build (not by me) & only has around 5-6000 miles, but its a smogger with badger pistons, had a head off not to long ago do to a bad guide (the cylinders look really nice) so i'm hoping the new pistons should work fine with just a hone, but i will mic them to be shure, i started a new job & got a little extra on the income tax, so its burning a whole in the ole' pocket 

Will i be happy with a the 500 cubes & stock irons (compression will be around 9.5.1) or a 10.5.1 440 with eddy heads ?

So what would you'll do !!

I'm heading to work shortly, so i'll be back in the morning, give me your thoughts 

That's a tough call.....a 500ci build is lotsa fun but the stock head is gonna kill it. If i was going to build a stroker it would be a zero deck combo for future use with a closed chamber aluminum head casting.  This means you'll be looking at a dished piston to keep the static compression at pump gas levels....which i'm assuming you're wanting to do. 

Joe, are you looking at the 4.15 or 4.25 rotating assemblies ?


Ron



Ps. Congrats on the new job 

[jg68]

Thanks Ron, i'm looking at the 4.15 stroker kit, according to Brandon at 440source, switching from bone stock iron heads to eddys could be worth as much as 100 HP on the 500 inch 

[is_it_EVER_done?]

If you want a 500 inch stroker ultimately, I would say that you need to build the shortblock first (as though you had the heads you want), Then plan on adding the heads as soon as you can afford to.

many years ago a machinist offered me some advice that I still live by. When I was asking questions on what/where the best place to start was, he said to think of the engine as a job/career. Figure out where you want to be and start from the bottom and work your way up, because you will never be Happy working your way down!

It may sound stupid, but it makes infinite sense. If you want to be vice president, you can only get there from an entry level position. And if you COULD start at at the top, you will not be happy working your way down to the mail room? The same logic applies to an engine build.

If you are happy with the power of your engine, but just want a noticeable improvement, why change pistons at all? just bolt on a set of E-heads that are milled to bring up your compression.

If you REALLY want some power, build the bottom for what you want (stroker), and add the final components later.

keep in mind that we were building strokers LONG, LONG before there were any aftermarket heads available (off-set ground or welded cranks). Contrary to popular belief, they made excellent power! The new crop of heads made a huge difference, but if they didn't exist, no one would be suggesting not to stroke it.

If you ultimately want a stroker, build one. Choose the cam and compression as though you had the heads you ultimately want, add the heads when you can, but have fun with it till then. You only live once!

[firefighter3931]

  as stated in my first response....start with the shortblock and add the heads later. Diamond racing carries a "shelf" piston that is ideal for a zero deck 10.5:1 493 build with 84cc chambers and .040 quench. Using the open chamber head will eliminate the quench initially with the iron heads....but it will be ready when you upgrade to the closed chamber RPM's 



Ron

[jg68]

If you want a 500 inch stroker ultimately, I would say that you need to build the shortblock first (as though you had the heads you want), Then plan on adding the heads as soon as you can afford to.

many years ago a machinist offered me some advice that I still live by. When I was asking questions on what/where the best place to start was, he said to think of the engine as a job/career. Figure out where you want to be and start from the bottom and work your way up, because you will never be Happy working your way down!

It may sound stupid, but it makes infinite sense. If you want to be vice president, you can only get there from an entry level position. And if you COULD start at at the top, you will not be happy working your way down to the mail room? The same logic applies to an engine build.

If you are happy with the power of your engine, but just want a noticeable improvement, why change pistons at all? just bolt on a set of E-heads that are milled to bring up your compression.

If you REALLY want some power, build the bottom for what you want (stroker), and add the final components later.

keep in mind that we were building strokers LONG, LONG before there were any aftermarket heads available (off-set ground or welded cranks). Contrary to popular belief, they made excellent power! The new crop of heads made a huge difference, but if they didn't exist, no one would be suggesting not to stroke it.

If you ultimately want a stroker, build one. Choose the cam and compression as though you had the heads you ultimately want, add the heads when you can, but have fun with it till then. You only live once!

This is very sound advice, like you mentioned in part of your post, i was thinking of just milling these heads .100 with steel gaskets & installing the larger summit cam kit for 90 bucks along with shorter pushrods, this would be the cheapest but there still would be no quench plus i don't know how happy i would be with it or for how long.

If i do this, i've decided to just get some heads also, i wish the EZs weren't that exspensive, Ben at Promax did up a 512 with some EZs opened up to max wedge, they got 600 on the dyno, he then installed some plain jane 452s on for comparison, all they got was 458 HP, this is just too much HP to leave on the table.

Ron, i might get the 4.25 crank.

[firefighter3931]

i was thinking of just milling these heads .100 with steel gaskets & installing the larger summit cam kit for 90 bucks along with shorter pushrods, this would be the cheapest but there still would be no quench plus i don't know how happy i would be with it or for how long.

Ron, i might get the 4.25 crank.

Joe, the only problem i see with that scenario is that by reducing the chamber volume so much you would push the static compression into the race fuel category. The big summit cam will be pretty small with that many cubes. The MP 509 with 114* lsa wold be a better option....more duration, a wide powerband and no guide mods required....anything over .510 lift creates retainer clearance issues unless the guides are trimmed down.

I like the 4.25 crank option better....same price as the 4.15 and more cubes. The 4.25/2.2 rod has more internal clearance than the 4.15/2.375 combo.


Ron

[jg68]

Joe, the only problem i see with that scenario is that by reducing the chamber volume so much you would push the static compression into the race fuel category. The big summit cam will be pretty small with that many cubes. The MP 509 with 114* lsa wold be a better option....more duration, a wide powerband and no guide mods required....anything over .510 lift creates retainer clearance issues unless the guides are trimmed down.

I like the 4.25 crank option better....same price as the 4.15 and more cubes. The 4.25/2.2 rod has more internal clearance than the 4.15/2.375 combo.


Ron

Yeah Ron, i figured doing all that milling with the pistons way down might cause issues, a better build would be replacing the pistons to a quench dome, i did this on a .060 360, i ran the 915 Js with KB190s & comp. was at 10.4, it ran great on 91 octane with the XE284H, but cranking pressure was only 165 psi, now i've built a couple of 440s, the first had KB 237s, steel shim gaskets, 906s milled to 68cc, comp. was 12.2, i ran the MP .509, cranking pressure was 170-175, ping city on this one, all this was at 3700ft alt., my 2nd 440 was a 73 cast crank, i installed some 2355s, .039 gasket, 906s milled around .030, with the .509 it had 145-150 psi, it ran fine on pump 91, so with a good quench like on the 360, i could have gotten away with more cranking pressure on the 440s without detination, that tells me how important quench is.

I'm up in the air now on wether to just build up the 440 with some 2355s & eddy heads with a nice cam for around 2000.00 or so, i really want aluminum heads now, this should make 525 HP easy with the right cam, i've done this build before with a cast crank & it balanced out pretty easy, this way i should still have good quench with the closed chambered eddys, 440source has brand new rods with 7/16 bolts for 224.00, the 2355s are 369.00, eddys are 1400.00, so i figure another 300.00 or so for rings & bearings, HV pump ect., 2500.00 should cover it, but the stroker would be closer to 3500-4000.00, because with the 512 build, i would like to run the EZs, there 1800.00 bucks, but the eddys should be more then enough for the 446, don't ya think ?   

[firefighter3931]

Joe, my 446 is a very basic build....stock crank & ly's with 2355 speedpros...zero decked. The e-heads are mildly ported and the cam is a Comp custom solid. It made 560hp on Fast68's dyno with a Victor and 950hp. I have a Street Dominator & proform carb and in that configuration it was ~20hp less. I would think 525 is pretty easy....in fact i know it is. 

The only thing with the 2355 slugs is that they are designed for an oem head and the RPM's place the valves in a non stock location which limits piston to valve clearance with really agressive cam profiles. The stick in mine is 264@.050/.580 gross lift/109 lsa which is about as large as you can go with reasonable P/V clearance on a street engine. The Comp xs282s is a nice off the shelf cam and makes really good power with excellent street manners.

Here's one i consulted on and Mike is very pleased with the end result. Some dyno numbers in there to look at 

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,6000.0.html



Ron

[firefighter3931]

but the eddys should be more then enough for the 446, don't ya think ?   

The eddy's are the ideal  choice for a pump gas 446....high velocity and plenty of torque. A ported E-head is good on a stroker as well.....it just won't RPM as high as a MW EZ-1 so you have to gear accordingly. With some good portwork and the right cam....650hp is a reality with a 500ci pump gas combo. There's not as much upside as with an ICH head....but there is some room to grow. 


Ron

[jg68]

Nice article, hey, do you think the eddys will be a good choice? I shouldn't have any probs with cam clearance, because i won't go near that big, maybe 540-550 max 238-248 @ 50 solid, i would like the comp. at least 10.1 minimum, 10.3 would be nice, should still run on pump premium.

Whats the specs on the XS282, i'm thinking its the 520-540 lift., if so, i had this in my 451, but i changed it up alittle on a custom grind to 529/543-240/246 @ 50 108 LSA.

[firefighter3931]

Joe, the engine build in the link is using stock e-heads....no porting. The xs282s is a split profile 244/252@.050....110lsa....lift(.520 in/.540 ex)

It will work fine with the stock e-head springs as well. 



Ron