Mopar Muscle Dana 60 Conversion Article

[Chatt69chgr]

I read the article tonight.  There were some good pictures but overall, I wasn't impressed with the article.  It was the usual type article you seem to get nowadays.  A few glossy pictures and specious info leaving you without complete knowledge of how to do the job.  Here's the deal.  It is apparently not all that difficult to convert one of these truck rears into a car setup.  And, apparently, there were literally hundreds of thousands of these truck rears used in 3/4 ton trucks and vans from all three American manufacturers.  The secret is: information, the alignment tool, and the weld on ends.  What is needed is a comprehensive article detailing the whole process.  It should tell which are the best rear ends to use so you know what to search out in the bone yard and have a complete set of instructions on how to do the job with accompanying pictures as well as a list of required aftermarket parts along with their sources.  The article would include info on pinion yokes, suregrips, axles, the whole ball of wax.  Somebody looking to put together a home business could author such a pamphlet and sell it along with information on how to make that alignment tool for the really adventurous.  For the rest of us not interested in making the tool, they could offer it for a reasonable cost.  I think there is a real market for something like this.  I don't have the time to do it myself.  Too many other honey-do projects right now.  Who out there will pick up the gauntlet and take on this challenge?

[jackel440]

I saw this same article and A buddy of mine who has some mopars is going to machine a set of these arhbors.they would just need to be the correct o.d. of the bearing races for the carrier,and the make one to fit the new axle end.Then we need to get a 1" or so soilid shaft to run through the arhbors to align everything.I believe the biggest problem would be making sure you preheated the axle housing enough to reduce any warping.or be very cautious when welding,as not to conentrate to much heat in one area.
I too thought the article left out a few too much detail,but my friend and I have got it figured out.We are also thinking of making more arbhors for different rears so we could do other housings.
I don't know when we will ever actually do a rear ,but we are going to have the tools ready.I don't see why anyone couldn't get a set made up at a machine shop for not a whole lot of cash.Heck they probably would have what you need in steel in a scrap tub.
I think it is a doable way for a guy to do it home and get good results.
As I said I haven't done this yet but,plan to this next fall maybe.

[Chatt69chgr]

Please keep everyone on the forum updated on your progress.  I am sure there is a lot of interest in Chargerland.  Thanks jackel440.

[defiance]

*edited to remove questions already answered*

yeah, not impressed either.  A few things I've found since, and a few that I'm still trying to figure out:

Next, on the 'jig' - I know I've seen a post from Doctordiff ( http://members.aol.com/doctordiff/ ) that he sells them, but I have no idea how much.

Next, I think they should really break down a good DETAILED bill of materials.  Here's what I've figured out so far, not sure how right it is.  I skimmed some sites and found a pretty good 'low' price.  My mentality is that I want it as good as stock, not shooting for any improvement (- with that in mind, if anyone knows where any of the parts would be cheaper, let me know!

Tube ends - $80 (moser or strange, same price - drdiff probably has 'em too)
Pinion snubber - $60 (drdiff)
Yoke - $80 (drdiff)
Jig - $100?? (drdiff - but I'm just shooting in the dark on this price...)
pinion bearing - $10 (auto zone, special order though - can probably get from moser/strange/drdiff/whatever)
axle + bearings + studs + retainer plates package - $384 (strange)

Any other parts I'm missing?

--Next up, on the bottom center of page 42 they're talking about 'having someone set up their gearset'.  I'm assuming if you find the gearset you want, that won't be necessary, right?  Also, isn't that what they're doing with all the shimming on page 44?

--Either way, if you don't find the gearset you want, that's another $150 to get the right ring & pinion.

--Plus another $250-$500 if you want to add a limited slip of some sort (any advice on which to get?  Trac-lok is the cheapest, what's the advantage of a powr-lok or detroit locker or whatever else?)

--And another $150 or so if you want a spool (though my understanding is this is race only, so I'll assume not)

So if all the above is correct, it looks like if you get a gear ratio you want, and it already has trac-lok, and you don't need a spool, it could cost whatever the 'raw' part costs, plus around $700

On the other hand, if you need a gear ratio change, and it doesn't have trac-lok, it's more like $1100 plus the cost of the junkyard rear end.

[defiance]

Oh yeah, is the process they listed pretty well correct?  Basically, they:

-cut off the ends

-Measured the offset from center of each end (the driver's side is slightly longer) and cut the end square at the same offset (minus the length of your tube ends).  They didn't go into how they achieved squareness here, but I think it is non-critical because the ends 'square it up' - you just have to get it really close here.

-clamp the bushings from the jig in the place where the carrier bearings go, then slide the bar through (basically, the bar is the same diameter as the axles, longer than the whole set, and the bushings hold it exactly centered in order to ensure your tube ends end up perfectly aligned and centered).

-then slide the tube ends on the end of the bar, and use a 3rd bushing to fill the gap between the tube and the end.  Center the tube ends 'flat' part in line with the housing (bottom or top?  they didn't mention this at all as far as I can tell...).  Weld a tack on each side to hold it centered before welding it all.

-have the gears "set up" (if necessary?)

-Put "the appropriate numbeer of shims" in place on the new carrier.  Once again, another topic completely glossed over.  If the part already has some sort of posi, can't it just be left alone?  And if it doesn't, how does one determine what the appropriate number of shims is?  What happens if the shims are wrong?

-The gear is installed on the carrier

-The pinion bearing is slid onto the pinion gear, and it is installed in the housing (pressed in?).  Later the article mentions putting shims on the pinion gear, though, and that's not mentioned here.  I would assume they would install between the gear and the bearing?

-using yellow dye, check gear engagement (I'm guessing that "proper" engagement will cause the dye to be rubbed off?)  My guess here would be if it DOESN'T rub off, the gear is pulled back out, a shim is added between the pinion gear and bearing, then trial and error until it works right...?  How does one know if there are too many shims?

-Ok, the next one loses me entirely.  I don't know what a dial indicator is, and I don't know what gear backlash is.  Oh, but that's what the carrier shims affect, so now I understand that part - but once again, what is gear backlash, and how would one go about setting it correctly?

-bolt everything back together, install the yoke, and "set pinion preload" - another term that means something very specific, but means nothing to those of us who have never dealt with a rear end...

-press sealed axle bearings in place, install axles.  No detail at all.  I'm guessing the retaining plates hold the axles in?  But I know nothing about them, how to install them, etc, and the article certainly doesn't address that.  Maybe it's something excessively logical, but I have no clue...

-put in gear oil.  Ok, that one I can understand, but it still doesn't touch on how much, how to know when it's full, etc.  I'd assume it's not filled to the brim?



Anyway, if I find the answers to all these questions, I'll be happy to write up a quick guide, and the people who know a bit more about it can tell me where it's right, wrong, could be improved, etc.  At least it's a good place to start, and could be a WHOLE LOT more informative than the MM article.

[defiance]

This should help   http://coloradok5.com/dana60manual.shtml   I still haven't made it all the way through, but I figure there are probably quite a few answers in there
Ah, yep, here's the first one http://coloradok5.com/dana60man/page40.jpg
Oh, and a better way than 'trial and error' to get close on pinion shimming http://coloradok5.com/dana60man/page41.jpg
Ah, pinion preload: http://coloradok5.com/dana60man/page46.jpg

Meanwhile, Looks like a spool is pretty much for drag racing only; it apparently defeats the purpose of the diff on the street?   I'll make a note of that and move on.

Hm... should probably figure out the measurements of the jig, too.

[mikepmcs]

definitley don't want a spool if you are driving it on the street.

v/r
Mike

[defiance]

Little more  - on tools, I'm thinking something like this for the bearings: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=015&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=250087453664&rd=1,1
and a dial indicator & calipers such as this:  http://www.amazon.com/Grizzly-H3022-Magnetic-Indicator-Caliper/dp/B0000DD4GB

and I should be set up as far as tools, right?  Well, other than the we've probably all got (welder, square, good socket set, grinder, chop saw, torque wrench), and the 'jig' mentioned earlier.  I don't see anything else being used in that article...

One thing I do see kinda debated, though, is a case spreader.  But looking at one, it looks like something I'd be able to fab up.  $220 is the least I've found it for, and it's basically just a set of four bars bolted together so they'll pivot, two pins that go into the case holes, and a rotational adjuster on one of them.  A lot of people question the need for it anyway, but even if it is necessary, why not just build it?

Oh, btw, another good info source: http://www.autohobbydigest.com/dana.html

I've got calls in to a few salvage yards in the area looking for some housings, bidding on a couple on ebay, and I expect to have one in the next couple weeks.  Once I get it I'll compile all the info I have into one concise listing with process, bill of materials, exact part sources, and any snafus I stumble across.  Hopefully I can make a much more detailed result than the MM guys...

[Chatt69chgr]

Great effort Defiance.  We will all be looking forward to your next installment on this subject.

[dave571]

You can probably get away without a case spreader.

At my old shop, I had one.  Used it once over 8 years, while overhauling about 5 diffs a year(  various brands)

FWIW, I run a spool on the street.  You can't even tell it's there most of the time.  Not good if it's wet out though

Back to the artical....What I disliked was the complete lack of info on the tools used to keep it straight.  They "borrowed" them.  What good is that to the rest of us?

As for a donar diff, it would seem to me a Ford would be  a poor candidate, only because of the flat flange a lot of them used for a pinion yolk.  The older dodge truck dana's will already have  a yolk the same as the old cars, and likely a set of 410's too.

[defiance]

What, you don't have a buddy with specialized tools used to do unusual fabrication to one particular kind of rear end???

Ok, right off it looks like the bar diameter is a non-critical measurement.  It just has to be as large as possible without interfering with the tubes.  Looking at the pic, it looks like they used around 2".

Bar length, I'd make it around 70" to be safe.

The discs all look to be around 1-1/2" thick.  Also non-critical, but again thick enough to be solid.

The critical measurements are the disc diametrs.  Two of them need to be the exact diameter of the carrier bearing spot.  Does anyone have those measurements right off the bat?
The other should be the exact diameter of the axle bearing slot.  Anyone know that one?
I'll keep digging through the documents to see if I can find it.

Incidentally, DoctorDiff emailed me back and said the he's got all the parts mentioned above.  He gave me prices, but I honestly haven't had a chance to look at them closely.  He did say he could fab this tooling, and said he "thought it would be around $200"

*edit - because I hate to keep bumping this to the top to add a few small details

-Just as a note, DoctorDiff's prices were comparable to anything else out there - including ebay - and he had everything above.  Still not sure I'm going to get the jig from him, though; still trying to figure out how to make them. 
The inner diameter of the end bearing area is 2.875", so that would be the diameter of the third disc.  Still looking for the diameter of the bearing areas.

[defiance]

Alright, I've got an axle lined up.  I'll probably be doing the work on the weekends, starting the 10th, at a facility about 80 miles away, so it'll be a month or two before it's completely finished up.  Dont' worry, using that facility has nothing to do with specialty tools, I'm going to do my best to stick to absolutely minimum tools.  The only reason I'm doing it so far away is that it's my dad's company, so I get plenty of room to work and good help!

Meanwhile, here are a few other questions I had---

Trac-lok vs. Powr-lok (or however they're spelled) - I know powr-lok is the older one, and was phased out of cars in '70 or so - but it's also the preferred one, since it can be rebuilt.  I know that a 16-spline powr-lok can be converted to a 35-spline by changing the gears.  For reference, DoctorDiff has a complete internals kit for the powr-lok for $200, including 35-spline gears and new clutches.  I know you can get just the gears a bit cheaper on ebay, but I'm thinking it's worth it to have new clutch discs as well.

However - what I don't know is:

--Why is the trac-lok considered inferior?  Has anyone actually seen one break?  If you look at the prices, a trac-lok is *significantly* less, so what are the real differences in both reliability and performance?

--Can a non-35 spline trac-lok be converted to 35-spline?  I skimmed ebay and the only thing I saw was a kit that supposedly works for BOTH - which I find hard to believe.  If they're supposed to be so different in performance & reliability, how could the internals possibly be interchangeable?  I'm guessing not, since the cost of changing out all internals would get close to the cost of a new diff anyway.

--Does anyone know if trucks follow the same basic guidelines as cars do as far as what years had which diff (ie, pre-70 is powr-lok, post-70 is trac-lok)?  I would assume they do, since it's all made by Dana anyway.

I hate to keep piling on the questions, but the good news is that I've found MOUNDS of answers already, and the final writeup should be pretty interesting!

Yet another good reference, btw:
http://www.drivetrain.com/ringpinioninstal.html

[Chatt69chgr]

The truck dana 60 doesn't have provisions for a pinion snubber.  How will you be handling that issue?  I suppose the snubber could mount to the body instead of the differential.  Or bosses could be welded to the cast iron housing.  Seems like welding cast iron isn't the problem now that it used to be.  Don't know if it would be strong enough.  And there is the thrust button issue.  Truck's didn't use thrust buttons.  Use of ball (green) bearings would be one way to solve this problem.  I wonder if there is a way to use the thrust buttons so one could use tapered axle bearings like the original MOPAR unit had?

I don't know about the difference between the Power-Lok and the Traction-Lok.  There is a good article in Autohobbydigest.com about the Dana 60 that talks about the two limited slip units.  It says that the changeover occurred in 1970 in the trucks.

[defiance]

For the snubber, I'm using cal-tracks myself, so not an issue (I think?).  If I were needing a snubber, as you said, I'd weld it to the body.  I'm actually going to be installing some subframe connectors while I have it up anyway, so it would all work together

I have to admit I don't know what a thrust button is?  Digging through the docs now, but if you can give me some direction...?

[THE CHARGER PUNK]

sunroofsuperbird did this for his superbird project out of a ford truck i think

[d72hemi]

sunroofsuperbird did this for his superbird project out of a ford truck i think

I was just thinking of that one also, http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,18481.0.html , it even has some pics. Take pics and keep us posted, I will want to try the same thing in a year or two.

Ian

[sunroofsuperbird]

Hi yes I did 1 a year ago or so and posted pics in areo section. very easy to do have about $40.00 in my dana 60 it was out of a 84 ? ford truck. did it without any special tools.

[Chatt69chgr]

"In Powr-Loks for passenger cars, there is a hole through the pinion shafts where they cross. Thrust buttons fit in this hole and the inboard ends of the axle shafts contact the thrust buttons, allowing adjustment of axle end-play. Powr-Loks for trucks do not have this feature."

The above was copied from the article on Dana 60's on the www.autohobbydigest.com website.  The buttons look like tappets from a briggs and stratton lawnmower more or less and are still available from Mopar as are the clutch rebuild kits for the power-lok.  With the green bearing, you wouldn't have to adjust axle end play and with as few miles as we usually put on these cars, side loading of the rear axle probably isn't too important.  I am not sure how Strange handles this but I bet they use green bearings. 

A friend told me that GM doesn't mount the pinion snubber on the differential housing like on Mopars.  He said they mount the snubber on the body.  But it sounds like you have another method of dealing with axle windup.  Would be neat, however, if a method of adding the differential mounted pinion snubber to the truck housing was explored so the end product would be pretty much like the original Mopar Dana 60 offering.   

[defiance]

Ah, you're right, I see that.  It sounds like the market in general has decided Green Bearings are good enough for the street...  Every setup Doctor Diff sells has green bearings, none of the complete power-lock rebuild kits I've found (all of which are 35-spine, and some of which are specifically advertised as being for cars) have the hole through the pinion shaft, Strange only sells "Mopar non-adjustable axle bearing" (which I'm betting are green bearings), and Moser also only sells "non-adjustable" bearings....  If strange and moser only sell non-adjustable, It's safe to assume all of their kits include non-adjustable.  And all of those manufacturers sell kits that are supposedly "street" or "street/strip"...
From that, I'm gathering that the market has decided they'll work on the street.  Which, admittedly, is a bit frightening; My car will be a daily driver, and I don't particularly want to have to replace axle bearings every year or something...
How is the adjustment handled in open diffs or track-locks?  I don't see that mentioned anywhere...

[firefighter3931]

Green bearings are fine on the street...they will last for a very long time. Ford PU's have been using them for years. 

I went with the strange 35 spline axles on mine. The factory suregrip had the side gears swapped to accomodate the new spline count. No pinion snubber because mine was out of a Ford truck. With SS springs the snubber is non functional anyway. 


Ron

[defiance]

Quick note, found the specs for the carrier bearing race, so here's my proposed specs for the jig!

Jig:

1 bar, 1" diameter, 45" long
--length non-critical, might be more convenient if 70" long, but probably not enough to justify extra cost
--diameter non-critical, needs to be thick enough to be solid, thin enough to fit in axle tubes

1 disc, .5" thick, 2.875" in diameter - with one centered hole for bar, 1"
--axle bearing race is 2.875".  Any of you machinists want to recommend a size that would actually fit?  maybe take 5 thou off the diameter?
--1" hole is for bar to slide through, so again, how much extra should be taken off to make sliding easier?
--thickness non-critical, just needs to be thick enough to be solid.  Race depth is *around* .5", I think.  Didn't dig on this one since it's not critical.

2 discs, .75" thick, 3.813" in diameter - with one centered hole for bar to slide through (snug)
--carrier bearing race is 3.813".  Any of you machinists want to recommend a size that would actually fit?  maybe take 5 thou off the diameter?
--1" hole is for bar to slide through, so again, how much extra should be taken off to make sliding easier?
--thickness non-critical, just needs to be thick enough to be solid.  Race depth is just over .75" (.78 or something)

[defiance]

Alright, I'm WAY too long-winded for this But here's what I've got so far-

http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dfhrrq82_4ff22p4

Any feedback is welcome on what I've got so far!  The actual 'process' part of it is mostly not written yet, and what has been written is minimally verified... but the other parts are all there, and It's a LOT longer than I thought it would be already.
Still, once I get further along I'll update with my own pics and much better 'process' details.
Thoughts or suggestions?

[BrianShaughnessy]

Alright, I'm WAY too long-winded for this But here's what I've got so far-

http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dfhrrq82_4ff22p4

Any feedback is welcome on what I've got so far!  The actual 'process' part of it is mostly not written yet, and what has been written is minimally verified... but the other parts are all there, and It's a LOT longer than I thought it would be already.
Still, once I get further along I'll update with my own pics and much better 'process' details.
Thoughts or suggestions?

You did your homework... very nice little writeup you made.   As long as you understand that your time is worth money also.   But the experience is probably invaluable also.

I kinda blew off this article before.    Having had a E250 dana converted awhile back,  in the end I'd have been miles ahead just calling Dr. Diff considering the hassles of dealing with a friend / machinist on the conversion and the cost of parts, labor, etc.    I saw his bandsaw,  his jig and his industrial strength welder used to put the ends on the truck tubes.   Took much longer and cost more than I was lead to believe or hoping for.     Next time I decide to do it I'd just call Cass.

[defiance]

No, I definitely understand that!  I have to agree with you that if it was just about getting the best axle for the least money, I'm now convinced that getting one from DoctorDiff is the way to go.

However, I still like building it.  For me, at the moment, cash is a limiting factor, my time isn't - so saving a bit of money (VERY small amount, admittedly) is worth a good bit of time.
The best part, though, is that once this is all done, I should have all the tools, documentation, and capability to do anything I need to to this rear axle.  Meaning, if I somehow go out there and blow it up, I don't pay a dime to a repair facility - I just take it off and fix it myself, for only the cost of the actual components I broke

Not that I expect that to happen...  but still!

I guess to tell you the truth, I just like figuring stuff out

[defiance]

News on the jig!

I've been calling local machine shops and talking to machininsts, and the one thing I've learned is that nobody wants one-off work.  The lack of callbacks and lack of interest has really gotten to me.  Most people just keep telling me to find someone with the tools to do it.

So, fine, I decided I'd figure out a way to make it myself.

Here's what I've got so far:

I've found this place, http://www.onlinemetals.com/merchant.cfm?pid=1090&step=4&showunits=inches - From there, you can buy a 48" long, 1" bar of 6061 aluminum for right at $25 after shipping.  If you get the 70", it might make things easier, but I don't think it's necessary.

Then, if you've got a plunge router and cutting bit, you can buy this attachment: http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=365-255 - for around $30 after shipping.  If you don't have a router, home depot has them for around $70.

Once you have that, you'll have the bar, and you can cut the rings out of 3/4" MDF - available at home depot for less than $10. 

1" hole saw and voila, you've got a jig

The only downside is that the spacers are made of wood, so if they're not stored carefully they'll warp.  But 3/4" MDF is pretty solid stuff, so you should be fine as long as they're kept clean & dry.

Thoughts?

I'll be trying this myself as soon as my parts all get here.  From the look of things it probably won't be this weekend, but we'll see...

Total cost to me: $25 (I've got lots of scrap MDF from making a desk a while back, and I've had the router and circle jig for a while now, too)

Total cost if you have to buy tools: $120 or so - but if you think about it, you probably need a router for something anyway, don't you?

Hm.. as I type that, it occurs to me that the process might ignite the outer bearing discs if they're wood...
But then again, no loss there...  just a cheap little disc of wood.  Can't see it hurting the housing or ends...  Just gotta make sure wherever you are it's not going to catch anything else on fire...  And have to consider those pieces 'sacrificial'