Shooting in downtown SLC mall

[GTX]

I guess you don't watch the news...The Pres. of Iran said..."Isreal should be wiped off the map". He also denied the holocaust ever happened. The Pres. of Iran IS the next Hitler, and he IS building a nuclear weapon. Some people CAN'T understand that. Kinda like Neville Chamberlin in 1938, he appeased Hitler untill Hitler bombed his country. History will repeat itself when ignorance ignores the enemy. Remember 9-11.

I agree about history repeating but there is also history in intolorence and the travesties that follow.

By the way, regarding your comment on Israel. I lost most of one side of my family in WWII to Germany and the ovens. Yes, they were German Jews and only a few got out. I take the Iranian president very seriously but I'm not about to get paranoid over it and hate a whole religion or even a country for his remarks.

These people are not Iranian! Not even close, there is a huge difference and not even all Iranians hate the U.S. I used to work with an Iranian girl and her family loves the U.S and are loyal AMERICANS.

The event shows no indication of having anything to do with religion.

Just because a person is Muslim does NOT mean that they are terrorists and it's idiocy and paranoid to think otherwise.
What ever happened to religious tolerance in his country?  I guess you are unaware the there are far more Muslims than us, what aren't they rampaging in the streets? I'll tell you, because most simply don't hate you like you hate and fear them. They don't even care about you!

I knew an Iranian militant here in Utah pre 9-11 and I know how they sound, I tossed his butt out of my house!
He is no longer in the country by the way, we turned him in but it took a while for anyone to catch up with him. He now lives in Germany where he fled post 9-11.
These Bosnian refugees are simple people who want to be invisible and they live in fear because of people like you. They want to work and build a better life and live in peace among us. They don't want to change you nor do they care what religion you are, they just want to live in peace after what they have been through. Mostly, they would like to become Americans and be accepted as such. In my time spent among the Bosnians ( or Iranian) I know they have never once tried to preach to me nor I to them. It just doesn't come up!
My Baptist friends are always trying to push their religion on me....oh no....conspiracy!
The only way that things will ever change is if we can all learn to understand each other. They fear you because you would hurt them as Milosevik did and that could push a kid to retaliate because he wants his family to live in peace without harassment. I'm really not sure though that this kids rampage had anything to do with ethnicity or religion. He was screwed up!
I ask again, were the Columbine kids Muslim? Was that a conspiracy? They were screwed up loners as well.
Do you actually have any evidence to the contrary? Like I said, I've known some of these people and I'm not about to hate all of any group just for fear of a .0001% who MIGHT be planning something.
These shootings don't show any indication of being a terror attack at all and this comes from the Feds.......I guess you also think the feds are bad?
The kids family is as shocked as anyone else.

Read up on the news!

Please do me a favor and unless you can show some non militant delusional mindset and can offer something kind to offer the victims and the city that is stunned by this please keep quiet.  In this battle you seem to be shooting blanks since you have no solid ground at all to base an opinion on and seem to be grasping wildly.
I hold no personal grudges or ill will but this is getting really old and stupid.


Let's have a beer or drink of choice and talk Mopar!

[Big Lebowski]

Your right it wasn't a terrorist attack, and the last muslim who drove his car through and over some college kids while on the phone with the police saying he.."wanted to kill them for Allays revenge"...That wasn't a terrorist attack either? And the Muslim who shot up a jewish center in seattle, well that wasn't a terrorist attack either. Ok I understand, 9-11 was just a mis-understanding, you're right. Ok I'll put my head back in the sand.

  And you'd better keep at least one eye on the Pres. of Iran, because he is a madman, soon to have nuclear weapons.

[GTX]

  

[Big Lebowski]

Ok you win, I'm putting up the white flag.

[CaptMarvel]

So we should run off all of the immigrants? How many generations?  Who would be next? The blacks, the Jews, Catholics, Baptist, Mormon, how about left handed people or those with blue eyes? I fit into several of those groups and I'm sure many others here do too. Would we be safe in your world?
Where would the paranoia stop?

Ok, true, but can we have a little fairness here? I'm left handed and Mormon and dont want to be unfairly persecuted either, but it seems that if any one or few members of a Christian/Jewish faith acting totally independantly of their church leaders, then the entire church is targeted. Because of this modern PC nonsense, we have to take a kid gloves approach if they are Muslim? Sorry, if churches/faiths that have no history of violence are pointed out, Im sure going to take a "profiled" view of ones that are well known for it. If this kid was Islamic, we better pay attention to that. Not fostering hate of any kind here, but if we (Americans) do not take the Muslim/terroist relationship seriously, I shudder to think about the consequences for our future. The majority of them are decent people, but enough rear their ugly head that are not to take notice. Those who ignore it are burying their heads in the sand...

[GTX]

I actually totally agree with you and I agree somewhat with B.L but you need to call it for what it is. We do need to keep a wary eye on it but countered with common sense and not shoot at shadows in the dark. This is called siege mentality and it's very dangerous although somewhat understandable.

They are saying over and over and over that there is no parallel between this kids faith and his actions. The only thing I want to point out is that it's too easy to jump off the deep end in light of current events and place labels that don't belong. During WWII the Japanese and in fact many Asian races were locked up simply for looking Asian and we need to try to prevent that very sad history again.
How about this for profiling?
I know a man in Illinois where I grew up who fought for Germany in WWII. not because he wanted to but because he was forced. He was injured several times by the allies but the minute he got a chance he came here and joined our side and fought for us. Now this man has had to endure comments by other Americans over the years right after the war for being German even though he was on our side! Do you want to keep that alive?

Now, as for being PC, I'm not and never will be but I will try to be diplomatic. There is a difference.  If I really thought that this kids actions were really motivated by Islam then I'd be beating the drum loudly to investigate!

Also, as far as the wacko in Iran goes, I think he is very dangerous and needs to be gone just as much as Bin Laden. He is extremely dangerous but I still don't think that these people belong in the same group as that idiot!
I don't think that the entire populace of Muslims are out to kill all of us Christians or Americans although sometimes I do wonder how deep it goes. I'm just not willing to jump off the deep end and get too excited before there is evidence to support the theory,I guess that's the engineer training in me. To me there is still plenty of evidence that at least right now many Muslims do not hate us. I refuse to hate or harm people just on the suspicion that they may not like me. If I did that I'd become just like that kid and I'd probably come gunning for some of you!


Now, for the facts thus far in the mall case. They DO NOT know the exact cause of the rampage but there is factual evidence that it was not racial or religious.
The kid had a history of pulling knives on people and getting into trouble even when he was young. In fact, he once pulled a knife on a landlord and threatened to kill him and the landlord was a fellow MUSLIM! The kid claimed that he didn't care about anyone.
All of these actions indicate to me a person with deep emotional problems.......just a bad kid so to speak.  It's too easy to place a racial or religion label on the entire thing and feel smug and good about yourself when in fact the kid was most likely really emotionally messed up.  Again, nobody cried anything about religion when the Columbine kids attacked. Maybe because they were 'one of us' and not different?
Now in this city we have people attacking people in the Bosnian community who had nothing to do with it and didn't necessarily even know the kid.
To you Christians out there, would your God or Jesus condone hate or persecution of these people?

I too am Mormon, left handed and have Jewish blood so I've experienced my own discrimination over the years and don't want it to happen to others. You know how misunderstood Mormons can be to certain people.
All I ask if for people to be rational and think straight and not allow emotion to take over especially with a lack of facts. If and when the radicals get here you will see me with my gun in my hands but not until then

Not that I mind the discussion but I think this thread has gotten off the intended topic and has become too religious in nature. It's supposed to be about a tragedy regardless of motives. Knowing the motives will not bring the victims back.

[Big Lebowski]

                         ******News flash for GTX******
  Today, a Muslim cabbie ran over two of his passengers in Tn. They had a RELIGIOUS arguement about how Muslims want their "Sharia law" (Islamo Facsism for those of you in Rio Linda) everywhere in the world. After paying the cabbie, the cab driver ran them over, one in critical condition.
     And of course, by YOUR thinking, this too was not a terrorist attack. Right. Ya ok. Mr. Chamberlin, it's 1938 all over again.

[Johnny SixPack]

Dude, I've stuck with for yah on more than one occassion, but man, you gotta let this one go.

The kid had a prior history of violence and said he didn't give a flying &^*% if people lived or died.

And just cause some crazy @$$ed Muslim cabbie was involved what turned into a deadly arguement about Muslim law doesn't mean d*ck in the SLC case.

I'm not saying that Muslim radicals aren't a problem, but every Muslim isn't a radical.

That'd be like saying every Californian is a Leftist Commie Pinko Scumbag (simply because 9 times out of 10 those are the ones that get the press - sorry to all non-Leftist Commie Pinko Scumbag Californians ).

Dude, we could go on and on about Islam being a violent entity, but for Troy's sake, and the sake of those who died in that tragic event, let it go.

[Big Lebowski]

I can let it go. I'm just concerned that San Diego (my home) is an easy terrorist target, we have nuclear flat tops, a nuke sub base, etc, I'm concerned for that 1% of our enemy who, some day will have the nuclear capacity to take out an American city. You can't say our enemies don't want to nuke an American city, they chant "Death to America" every day. CBS's 60 minutes reported that the soviets are "missing" 16 "suitcase nukes"  Where are they? Maybe these city destroying nukes are on their way to America.
           Hopefully I'm wrong, but we can't turn a blind eye to this kind of hatred towards Americans.

[Big Lebowski]

  Sorry GTX, I hope I'm wrong, I really do. I don't want to be right on this one, because if/when a nuke goes off in America, we ALL lose. Johnny's right, I take this stuff too seriously, but this war is real. Some would say WWlll. I'm done.

[GTX]

I don't take it too personally, it's only the internet after all and besides, everyone has a right to their opinions. I may disagree partially with you but I will not begrudge you your right to have your views.
We agree in principle but not on how far to take it or what to do about it. I may not come off like it but I feel very strongly about the issues but I'm just not about to join a lynching party and I try to keep most of those views more private since most don't want to hear mine as they don't want to hear yours.
I too worry about missing nukes, radicals who would kill us and many other issues including No. Korea and Iran but home grown terror worries me more and hate and intolerance is the foundation of that. We have kids who have to go to school and worry about being killed whether by a religious zealot or by some kid who is just pissed off. Frankly I'm more worried right now about people like the KKK, Neo Nazi's and home style Christian fundamentalists and I'll wager my car that they are some among us here.
If we aren't secure at home from our own then how can we secure ourselves in the world? I digress though, I just don't think this is the place for me to air my religious or political views, it's too polarizing and we're all supposed to be here out of mutual love of Mopars.


The bottom line is that a kid went berserk and shot innocent people. Many innocent people have been traumatized over it and whether the motives were hate, political, religious or pathological those lives are now shattered and nothing we say will bring them back. My views or your will not help Steve who grieves the loss of his 15 year old daughter or the other families involved. Those of you with kids, can you picture that?

Given what we know that kid could have just as easily been any number of over wound 'Christian' kids and nobody would say that religion had anything to do with it.
I was at Trolley Square last night and for me is was sort of surreal. I don't really care why it happened. It did happen and we need to deal with it and go on.

The end

[CaptMarvel]

  Sorry GTX, I hope I'm wrong, I really do. I don't want to be right on this one, because if/when a nuke goes off in America, we ALL lose. Johnny's right, I take this stuff too seriously, but this war is real. Some would say WWlll. I'm done.

We cant afford to not take their misguided hatred for us seriously, but, sadly, some folks are so wrapped up in emotions, that they dont see the truth in front of all of us....

[GTX]

What is the truth?

[Big Lebowski]

What is the truth?

  The truth is today the deadline has passed for Iran to stop enriching Uranium (Nuclear weapons grade material for those of you in Rio Linda) And with this deadline passing, today the Pres. of Iran gave the world the finger (the middle finger for those of you in Rio Linda).

[GTX]

We keep going in circles.

The issue in this thread was that a kid whoever he was and for whatever motives rampaged in a mall killing innocent people.  Iran has nothing whatsoever to do with Trolley Square unless there is an Iran - Utah connection that the BATF and the FBI haven't found. I'm sure that the CIA also looked at it at least briefly since that would be their domain - possible international links to terror. The FBI charter restricts it to dealing only with domestic issues.
It's my understanding that they have turned the thing over to local police since they have not found anything at all to point to a motive other than freaking out which is not a federal offense, it's just pathetic. By all evidence so far the kid was disturbed...period.

Yeah, Iran needs to be dealt with in strong terms ( I say get out of Iraq as soon as plausible and go after Iran) and yes I most certainly agree that there is friction among Christians and Muslims as there has been for centuries ( remember the crusades?)  only now it's flaring up again.
I'm also sure the there are at least 50 groups not even counting the domestic wacko's who would love to blow us all up with nukes or anything they could use but that still has nothing to do with a kid shooting people in a mall for no known reason.
Now if it came out that the kid was acting on behalf of someone I'd be screaming for that persons head but there simply is no evidence.  If the kid acted alone then I guess the case is closed, there is nobody to prosecute.   

It sort of strikes me that if the kid did it for Allah, 50 virgins or whatever then he would have left a statement and funny that he didn't. Not one person or group has come forward to claim responsibility and the kid simply left nothing behind. Nothing in his car, nothing in his room, no friends...nothing. Apparently not even religious writings or anything else.
Very odd for a militant making a statement not to make the statement and just because I or anyone else fails to make some imaginary connection doesn't mean that we are naive or ignoring the 'obvious'.
I don't chase shadows and speculation I deal in facts.

[Big Lebowski]

Ok, you win. The kid acted alone. Maybe I should have started a new thread about Iran. BTW,  I'm hearing that the Iranians bought some kind of new bad ass anti-ship missles from the commies. It's a state of the art super sonic speed, (very fast for those of you in Rio Linda) and it's a zig zag steering missile so it's hard to hit. Oh ya the best part, it comes with conventional or with a nuclear tipped warhead. That's great, the new Hitler in charge of Iran is alive and well, and well armed.

[GTX]

Now if you start a thread about Iran we're on the same side and I'm in!!

That guy needs to be taken out!