Isthis a scam? 70 Daytona

[lilwendal]

This has to be a scam. Was there ever a 70 daytona? Hes trying to push a lot of documentation that its real but it cant be right?  Doesn't even have a rear window plug.  Lots of other expensive Mopars in the back ground so this guy should no what hes selling.  What do you think?

**Inactive Link Removed**

[UFO]

There was a big write in mopar coll guide about the 70 daytonas.In the end it was figured to be a dealer done conversion.

[TruckDriver]

Boy, that car seems to up for sale every other year.

[472 R/T SE]

Doesn't look to be a scam.  Jerry Junemann the owner looks to have consigned it with topshelf.  Hays, Kansas is the current location.

If only I could win the lottery. 

[lilwendal]

I thought the article in MCG said all 70s were scams.

[TylerCharger69]

It's obviously a clone...in my opinion.   The window plug alone shows that.....and    I'm not for certain on this one...but  did the Daytonas come with door scoops???  Hmmmmmmm.   And...if it were a real thing....it would be worth much more than that!!!

[Big Lebowski]

I like it. When were the pics taken?

[UFO]

The daytona parts were added to a very nicely optioned 70 6-pack charger.

[lilwendal]

My problem with it is it cant be a factory car and thats how he is selling it. To me thats fraud. Maybe these items were dealer installed after purchase but I sure would like to see a build sheet that shows the nose and wing from the line.

[472 R/T SE]

Most scams are referred to as an unscrupulous seller (Nigerian) trying to get the better of you and I.  In that sense is what I was referring to.

[UFO]

Not necessarily after purchase.Maybe the dealership(Parsons Dodge according to the article)was not on the short list to get a Daytona.With a paying customer wanting a wing car they did the next best thing and built one.

[tan top]

There was a big write in mopar coll guide about the 70 daytonas.In the end it was figured to be a dealer done conversion.

   

    that car is supposed to be 1 of three i believe    hasn't that car got a window sticker showing a  daytona conversion  package option     

[UFO]

I thought there was too,but it was written on the dealership`s letterhead.

[tan top]

I thought there was too,but it was written on the dealership`s letterhead.

              Hmmmm...     just written intresting  ,  i was pretty sure i had seen the window sticker  as well ...   

[Daytona Guy]

I have met Jerry and he is a great rare guy. This car is amassing and I have seen it and have my own pics of it. He has always said this is a dealer installed Daytona package. In the car world having a dealer do things to cars can make them a collector piece although not near what it would be if they actually made 3 - 70 Daytona from the factory. This car has made for a great discussion piece for Mopar history and makes this hobby fun. The three 70 Daytona's (all dealer made) are claimed to be this Purple one, the Green one that appears on the Chrysler poster with some black and white pics, and a mysterious Red and white one that no one has definitively found. 

In 1979 after my Dad and I made our first black Daytona that I drove to high school my Jr and Sr. year - I had people (Mopar nuts) that would approach me wondering if my car was one of the three Daytona's made in 70. So this legend was up and running very early on.

[bpj]

I remember this car from years and years ago.
There is no factory or dealer paperwork to document it being a "factory conversion", if I remember correctly. And I don't recall if there is an original build sheet for the car either. But regardless, it's a killer,4spd,Vcode fc7, matching numbers, Charger RTSE with a sunroof! And it was converted to a "Daytona" right from the start. Talk about COOL!
He wanted crazy money for the car years ago. I can't imagine what he wants for it today.

[deputycrawford]

The records clearly state that no Daytonas were built in 1970. The excuse about poor records is hooky. It was a dealer modified car. End of story. I would love to have the car, but its not a real Daytona. Many cars were and are modified from the dealer and are very cool. Its just not, and never will be a real Daytona. No one in the world could ever convince me otherwise. I know many of the insiders and have asked the question to many of them. Lets just put this thing to rest. Too many new people new to the hobby are being mis informed.

[1BAD68]

Dealer installed Daytona package is the next best thing to a factory Daytona, and now with the pics that look to be 1970   
Its a wicked car

[nakita7]

The car is an XS car. There are NO xx29 cars with a "0" as the sixth digit out there, period. If the owner, the dealer or the King of Siam installs a wing and a nose, it does NOT make the car a Daytona.

There, that should clear the mystery up....

[Blakcharger440]

I went to the Wheels and Spokes car museum in Hays KS back in '93 and took a look at the collection he had
back then which was really impressive. I saw the 70 Daytona and took numerous pics which I still have. I couldnt believe
what I was seeing at the time and thought it must be the rarest car to come out of Mopar heaven.

There were a couple of mopar mags that did articles but MCG got to the bottom of it and found that it was definitely dealer
installed Daytona parts on a 70 Charger RTSE sunroof car.
It is still a killer car no doubt about it. 


I seem to remember a couple of years back they were trying to get 1,000,000 out of it.
They have a long way to go to meet reserve on that! 


Most internet scams originate out of Europe but this one is not. Although they are stretching alot about the actual
Daytona part.

[Chad L. Magee]

I know the car very well as I grew up only two hours away from Hays, Kansas and visited Wheels'N'Spokes many times when it was still open.  I want to base my future museum around his layout, allowing people to see vintage memorbilia along side of the cars.  While the 1970 Charger in question is not a factory Daytona, it is a very rare RT/SE 440 sixpack, 4-speed in purple (how many have you seen?).  I can't remember if the sunroof option on that car was factory optioned that way or a dealer convertion.  Either way, 1970 sunroof Chargers don't exactly grow on trees, let alone a sixpack, 4-speed in purple.  Add the dealer option on and it does become something more special.  I could care less if it is a "real" Daytona or not in the mopar world.  That one is on my list of favorite cars to buy in the future (yes, I plan on spending big $ to get it someday, if a certain someone does not beat me to it ), as I would like to actually put that one to work as a fair weather driver for local shows........

[UFO]

Don`t remember where I found this,But you can read it on the left near the bottom "add daytona pkge"

[AKcharger]

Dealer installed Daytona package is the next best thing to a factory Daytona, and now with the pics that look to be 1970   
Its a wicked car

If you look in the picture you can see a '74 lemans in the street

Why was it striped and completely repained in 1976? wrecked? package added then?

[THE CHARGER PUNK]

I see it does have factory trunk braces, does it have the holes cut in the fenders 2???

[lilwendal]

Again the reason I say scam is through out the add he continually calls the car a daytona. It is not a daytona period. And for him to claim so is fraud.  I bought my wife a plain 06 mustang and on the same day from the same dealership purchase the GT grille, GT emblems and the GT rear bumper.  The next day these GT items were added to the car.  Does that make her car a GT? No.  When the conversion happens is irelevent. Half assed conversion at that. wheres the plug?  So sell it for what it is. A very nice well equiped 70 charger RT SE with the nose and wing of a daytona added after purchase.  Different note. I know plum crazy is very hard to match but from the looks of the door jams and the engine bay only the outside of the car has ever been repainted.

[Ghoste]

I have to agreee with that.  It's an excellent and very old conversion but it's no more genuine than any of the recntly built clones that crossed the B-J auction block last month.

[Arigmaster]

I have to agree with 1Bad 68 & Chad...

But, In my own opinion, I think the car should be considered as a Daytona Charger.

Even though it was not produced in the factory from a "converted 500"... Daytona is still a "Package" and the parts used on all 3 are still all original factory Daytona package  parts. What makes this car differ, is that the dealer chose to produce three of these cars in 1970 when the factory killed the line production on the "Converted 500's" at the end of 69. In 1970, I don't believe that there were any Chargers with the window plug either. (correct me if I'm wrong on that)

They were produced on the line but converted in the dealership rather than at the other facility where Dodge sent the cars for "installation" of the "Daytona package". The chargers used for these conversions were also produced "on the line" so they are authentic Chargers.

So as for the car being merely an RT SE... Aren't the Daytona's merely a 500 with the Daytona package? Some may go back to the "Numbers" thing but the ones with the daytona package did not get the "numbers" until after the conversion was done. They rolled out of the facility with the 500 numbers and new tags were added or changed.

If I purchased a car from a dealer and on the day of the purchase had things added to the car which would convert it to something else. Then I say "no" it isn't real... But, If the car already is converted and has the package listed on the dealer added options... I would have to say it should be acknowledged as "real" under those circumstances because the package parts are genuine and the conversion was done before the car was sold and was not special ordered to the first person to register it.

Just my own opinion...

[nakita7]

The car is simply "The Original Daytona Clone/Re-creation". That's all it is....

[Brock Samson]

if i had the ability that's the car i would have ordered at the time...
too bad the rear window ain't right,.. no self respecting DAYTONA ever had the turbulance inducing sail panels...
..ain't this been agreed upon yet?..   

[UFO]

If you want to get technical about it.There are no factory built daytonas.My reason is that creative industries built them not the factory.Sure calling it a 70 daytona maybe is not right.Its still a beautiful car with a interesting history.
20 years ago I put a fender tag on my car from a cop car.One of those "special order-special paint" tags.It was funny when the number crunchers would look at the tag trying to figure what was special.

[1BAD68]

I agree, there are no factory built Daytona's.
Furthermore, anyone with the kind of money he wants for it isn't going to buy it and then realize later "oh crap I thought this was a real Daytona"
It is what it is.

[Troy]

I don't hear the owners of Balwin Motion or Yenko Camaro's complaining about their dealer installed options...

I agree, there are no factory built Daytona's.
Furthermore, anyone with the kind of money he wants for it isn't going to buy it and then realize later "oh crap I thought this was a real Daytona"
It is what it is.

Very true.

Troy

[Ghoste]

Well that pretty much settles it then.  Following this logic means that all Daytona clones are as legitimate as any other Daytona clone because clones are all that were ever built?  Ray Nichels certainly wasn't a factory.
Maybe factory authorized is the term needed to satisfy everyone here, in which case, this car and all the ones that came after are just fakes, imitators, and pretenders to the throne?

[1BAD68]

Factory authorized works for me.
Although "dealer installed option" does hold weight in my book, kinda like a if you bought a car at Mr. Norms way back then and had them install a six pak, or a dealer installed warranty block. Seems alot better than one that was done 30 years later

[Dodge Don]

No matter which way you slice it the car itself is amazingly sweet. I've loved that car ever since I saw it in a mopar magazine way way back. The Areo Warriors club and Winged Warriors Association still maintain that 3 1970 Daytonas were built by Creative Industries. 

I think it looks nicer than a 69 Daytona. 

[THE CHARGER PUNK]

thats my favourite wing car ever BUILT!!!!

[hemigeno]

Here are a few of my thoughts on this car that I posted on the mirror thread in the Aero Forum:

I will say this again. The car has been long configured in its current condition. As a matter of fact, I believe it was done this way before the origional owner even picked up the car. It is what it is. Its not a factory daytona by definition, then again none of the Daytona's or 500's are factory. They were all converted at Creative. So what is the difference of Creative doing a Daytona in 1969 or a Dealership doing it in 1970? Its not like the other Daytona's. That is correct. Is it unique? YES. Is it a legit car? YES. Would it be worth more than any clone ever built? YES YES YES YES YES

While I agree that Jerry's car will be worth way more than probably any other clone ever built, the distinction between this car and an "original" Daytona is the fact that the '69s were factory-sanctioned even if they weren't completely factory-built.  Creative did all their work at the behest of MaMopar - whereas the work on this purple car was done upon the instructions of a dealer and/or proud '70 Charger R/T owner.  THAT is the difference which can never be erased.  And for that reason, I would never use the term "legit" in connection with this particular car.

Think about it...  Dealer-added options are NEVER given the same importance as options intended to be on the car as indexed by the Broadcast Sheet.  Sales Code A11 (the C500 and Daytona aero packages) was noted on the Broadcast sheet, which legitimizes the Creative Industries conversion.  Jerry's car, while irreplaceable in the sense that no other '70 Charger R/Ts can be equipped that way on Day Two, was still modified after Chrysler was done equipping the car. 

Any dealership could add a six-pack to a 440 Imperial, but that doesn't mean that it suddenly becomes a one-of-one car now, would it?

I agree, that with all the controversy and notoriety surrounding this car, it's probably more "rare" than most '69 Daytonas - and in this instance that rarity will probably bring quite a premium over what would otherwise be a highly-optioned 4-speed '70 R/T.  To me, it is just a unique (equipped as a Daytona Clone almost since it was new), famous (due to its notoriety as a "possible" 1970 Daytona) clone. 

I'm glad the consigning seller weighed in to set the record straight about some things, since Larry did make a major leap in logic from what their response actually was.  That doesn't mean that I agree with the verbage in the ads, since I do not agree with their assessments and conclusions.  Most of the people who know much at all about the Daytonas already know the score on this subject, so I honestly think their statements and claims tend to hurt their chances of a high-dollar sale.  Don't get me wrong, I think its and awesome car, and it is significant to the Daytona's legacy/history in that I see it as concrete evidence disproving its factory connection.

I just do not think that this car will bring more than $175k (and I really question the logic behind someone paying that much).  After all, for a few more $$ than that you could probably get a pretty nicely equipped original Daytona.  Unless someone REALLY wants to have a car that is followed by controversy, why pay more for it than what an original car would cost?

That's my unbiased, unsolicited, un-adulterated, worth what you're paying for it, comments...


Geno

[Brad]

I WAS BORN AND RAISED IN HAYS KS. I'VE KNOWN JERRY FOR YEARS AND HE ALWAYS REPRESENTED THIS CAR AS A ONE OF THREE MADE 70 DAYTONA CHARGER. I HAVE KNOWN HIM TO MISREPRESENT OTHER CARS HE HAD, BUT I DON'T KNOW IF THIS IS REAL OR NOT. HE HAS OWNED MANY REAL AND RARE MOPARS.

[hemigeno]

I've bought parts from Jerry before, although I've never met him in person.  Lots of folks who have say that he's a nice person, and this car has been around for a long time.  It's been the subject of lots of debates, on both sides of the issue.  I would never go so far as to say that Jerry has misrepresented the car, since I do believe it is as close to a '70 Daytona as anyone could ever get.  My definition of what constitutes an authentic Daytona might differ from some, but I do not believe it to be a factory-authorized or factory-sanctioned conversion.  It is still many notches above a "customized" Charger, but it falls short of the mark of what the Charger 500's, Charger Daytonas and Plymouth Superbirds were (or the '68 Hemi Barracudas and Darts for that matter).

It's still a very neat car, and the price is climing up there ($180k++), but if I had that much money laying around I'd be buying an original Daytona rather than this particular car.