Chrysler to cut 13,000 jobs

[Brock Samson]

i remember 1974 and the dissapointing line up at the dealership... and the gas pumps... so we knew then how bad it could be...
one more dollor per gallon and were all gonna be in the poor house... 
unless of course your "old Money". 

[hemihead]

Amazing how everyone wants to blame the little guy trying to make a buck and raise his family.If white collar had it's way ,labor would still be working 14 hours a day 6 days a week, making 10 cents a day then wonder why they are paying so much taxes to welfare.i live in the Pittsburgh area , the once mighty Steel city.When the Unions got driven out, it wasn't the White collar guys who lost their jobs , homes,and even families.
Now around here what do you have? The production jobs are all minimum wage or just above, 12 hour shifts and the company has mandatory overtime.Now I imagine all the white collar workers will cry about how hard they have it.
There is no middle class any longer.That died with Labor Unions,Union Busting,Reganomics ( the great union breaker himself,except the Actors Union that he was a member of) Unions scare the crap of of management and the government.The Kennedys went after Hoffa and the Teamsters because with a strike they could shut the country down.Too much power.Unions also cut into the management and stockholders profits by forcing them to share the profits a little more fairly.Can't have that now can we?
If foreign labor is so much cheaper, and everything is built somewhere else, then why do those same products cost nearly as much as the evil Union made goods?Because of the same reason they went to cheaper labor.They make a bigger profit margin.
So keep blaming the little guy because he barely scratches out a living for white collar making the billion dollar losses.

[69DodgeCharger]

I worked for the UAW for 9 years, all they did was steal my money. I now work in a non-union shop and make much more than I did at the union shop, plus we are treated better by management, have better profit sharing, 401k and insurance plans. So somebody please enlighten me to what the great benefit of working for a union is? Because I'm sure not seeing it. And don't even bother with the argument that they protect jobs.....They don't, and they can't Do you really think that the UAW is gonna stop any of the big 3 from outsourcing, closing plants, and reducing the workforce? They're not, but they will be right there with there greedy hand out to get those dues every month. Problem is they are a "paper tiger" with no power anymore and everybody knows that. hourly and management workers alike.

[DC_1]

If white collar had it's way ,labor would still be working 14 hours a day 6 days a week, making 10 cents a day

you don't actually beleive that , do you!

[hemihead]

NEVER underestimate corporate greed.Why do you think they all move production plants to foreign countries? Cheap labor!

[Shakey]

....was pretty much shocked to see all the people sitting, sleeping, doing drugs and pretty much everything you could think of........

I've heard way to many stories like this over the years from CAW members who were "proud" to tell them.   

One fella I used to know, cut his hand quite badly on a weekend.  He held the pain and put off going to the Doctor until he could get to work on Monday where he claimed it happened on the job.  This is the same fella that got mixed up badly with drugs, used them while working, got caught and the union stood up for him, sent him to rehab, paid for by Chrysler, and had his job waiting for him when he got out six months later.

I know only a small percentage of the employees are this worthless but these are the stories that circulate and stick in ones mind.   

So, now the gravy train is coming to a grinding halt and they all throw their arms up in the air, wonder why and cry foul.   

[hemihead]

....was pretty much shocked to see all the people sitting, sleeping, doing drugs and pretty much everything you could think of........

I've heard way to many stories like this over the years from CAW members who were "proud" to tell them.   

One fella I used to know, cut his hand quite badly on a weekend.  He held the pain and put off going to the Doctor until he could get to work on Monday where he claimed it happened on the job.  This is the same fella that got mixed up badly with drugs, used them while working, got caught and the union stood up for him, sent him to rehab, paid for by Chrysler, and had his job waiting for him when he got out six months later.

I know only a small percentage of the employees are this worthless but these are the stories that circulate and stick in ones mind.   

So, now the gravy train is coming to a grinding halt and they all throw their arms up in the air, wonder why and cry foul.   

The part about the guy to to rehab and etc.,etc. sounds like a lot of white collar workers,politicians,actors and actresses,... and nobody seems to mind.

[Neal_J]

The harsh economic reality is that neither GM, Ford or Chrysler can compete effectively in a global economy.  Mark my words:  in 10 years, all three will either be dead or subsidiaries of the Asian car companies.  That's bank.

Neal J

[69DodgeCharger]

The harsh economic reality is that neither GM, Ford or Chrysler can compete effectively in a global economy.  Mark my words:  in 10 years, all three will either be dead or subsidiaries of the Asian car companies.  That's bank.


What's sad is that your probably right. Americans just won't work for what the rest of the world will.....We have had it good for so long we have lost touch with the harsh realities of the rest of the "poor" world and what they will do to make a better life for themselves. And the greedy corporations and their greedy stockholders don't give a second thought to selling out the American way of life.....yet. One day they will wake up to find that their ways have turned around and bitten them in the ass. Imagine the day when they wake up and find out find out that their investments have been bought by some Asian finance company you have never heard of. what do you suppose that will feel like.

[hemihead]

The harsh economic reality is that neither GM, Ford or Chrysler can compete effectively in a global economy.  Mark my words:  in 10 years, all three will either be dead or subsidiaries of the Asian car companies.  That's bank.


What's sad is that your probably right. Americans just won't work for what the rest of the world will.....We have had it good for so long we have lost touch with the harsh realities of the rest of the "poor" world and what they will do to make a better life for themselves. And the greedy corporations and their greedy stockholders don't give a second thought to selling out the American way of life.....yet. One day they will wake up to find that their ways have turned around and bitten them in the ass. Imagine the day when they wake up and find out find out that their investments have been bought by some Asian finance company you have never heard of. what do you suppose that will feel like.

They won't really get hurt,they made their millions already.it will only hurt the little guy.

[Ghoste]

I still don't get why we are the ones who have to "wake up" and accept a lower standard of living.  I don't think we could live for what much of the world accepts as a wage unless we want to build our ownlittle shacks and get rid of cars, appliances, health care and so on.  Why is it wrong to adopt the idea that maybe the rest of the world is entitled to a better standard of living and instead of us "competing" with them in a bid to search the globe for lower and lower wages, bring them up to our level.
Yes, yes, yes, I know that is a foolish socialist utopian hippy environentalist commie pinko fag tree hugging whale loving pipe dream and that it flies in the face of good old survival of the fittest free market rules, but why?  Why do we have to wake up and live more poorly?  So that we get a toaster at WalMart for 10 bucks instead of 25?
I'll go a step further in the American automaker demise and predict that in 20 years, the Asians won't even have their own factories.  All of the their modular assembling will be farmed out to small cheap bidders all over the world and the Chinese will own almost alll manufacturing.  The Chinese are already trying to buy the raw material sources around the world and a boat can be here from China in less than a week. Dealers will disappear as we know them and WalMart will start selling Chinese made cars for dirt cheap. 
Wanna make money?  Invest in port building equipment on the west coast.  And while you are worried about waking up those overpaid Americans, remember the next time you walk out of WalMart with that 30 dollar dvd player, that China is still a communist country.
Oh, and I have the cheap dvd player too so you can insert the hypocrite smiley here.

[DC_1]

Why is it wrong to adopt the idea that maybe the rest of the world is entitled to a better standard of living and instead of us "competing" with them in a bid to search the globe for lower and lower wages, bring them up to our level.

I maybe selfish and I am not tyring to be an elitist but, I don't want the rest of the worlds standard of living to increase. You think gas prices are high now. What do you think they would be if every family in China had a car in the driveway....or 2.5 televisions per house hold....or any of the other plastic products that are made with petroleum. if you think the tree huggers are upset now about the rain forest, global warming and the appetite for natural resources, what would happen if you increase the consumption of products proportionate to the rate of the U.S in a country that has not millions but billions of people. I think it would be disastrous.

I didn't make the rules but even in nature there is a hierarchy... somethings climb to the top of the food chain while others peril. If you try to make every living thing equal I think you are screwing with the balance of life......its unfortunate but that just the way things are.

Don't you just love when a thread is all over the place

[hemihead]

I would still like to know how many people out there who despise the unions and think American workers are overpaid and lazy, and think foreign products are so great,own one of those Jap or Chinese made tool sets?There's quality for you.Now someone will come along and tell me that doesn't count, right? Sure they are making stuff cheap in China, etc. but look at how much is just cheap junk.And people will suck it up because it is less expensive.How many of you guys ever tried to hang some of those high quality aftermarket panels on your car? What a joke.But hey, you keep trying to tell me how all this foreign garbage is better.God help this country and the not to bright people in it.

[Ghoste]

Actually, Sydmoe, I agree with you on much of the hierarchy stuff.  It's easy to do when you are at the better end of that food chain.  But doesn't that relate directly to my question of why we should "wake up" that we're at the top of the food chain and we need to get to the bottom if we want to keep eating?

How long before those poorer nations begin buying our old musclecars and driving them up in value again?  Or do you think they want to adopt any of our automotive values?

[Troy]

This topic seems to be an absolute mess but I'll throw out my thoughts any way...

When I was still in college I worked at a company as a co-op. It would amaze me that very often people would argue about the best way to do something, who should do it, who should be in charge, or who should get the credit. All the while nothing was getting accomplished. I made the point several times that if we didn't have anything to deliver when the customer's deadline came due or that if we delivered a sub-par product that customer would not pay. If our company did not get paid then, eventually, they wouldn't have enough money to pay the employees who spent all their time arguing. Sure enough, that company is gone. Blame whoever you want but, in the end, the customer has the money and if they don't get what they want/demand then it's all downhill from there. Being bitter and placing blame does NOT get the work done nor does it move product out the door. The goal of every business is to make money. Period. The way to do that is to hire the right people in each position and get them all to work together. Just like in the sports world, a disfunctional team almost guarantees failure (even if you have the world's best individuals).

I have worked manual labor jobs in the past. My parents work in factories and are members of unions. What I learned from my experiences is that I never want to live that way. I work hard and I actually enjoy manual labor but I am driven and expect the people around me to pull their weight. I get really ticked off when I'm doing all the work and others are sitting on their rear complaining about how they're being treated poorly. My mom is working herself into an early grave while the people she works with seem fairly incompetent. Of course, they have seniority and a union so it's impossible to throw the dead weight out and hire someone who takes pride in their work. Yes, I work in the white collar world and we have similar situations. I still get ticked when I'm doing all the work and others are sitting around complaining about how they are being treated poorly (or playing Solitaire).

But you know what, by myself I can be responsible for as much as $5-8 million of the company's yearly income. I make really cool stuff and I'm excited about it so I can deal with all the politics and laziness. I will also be the first one to speak up when someone else asks "why aren't we making money" - especially if they point fingers at me (I am 1/300th of the company but generate 1/20th of the revenue). Do you realize how many widgets an assembly line worker has to make to get in that territory? Of course, the salesmen don't make a single item but the rest of the company would be in disarray without them. The marketing team, accountants, human resource administrators, receptionist, information systems group, executives, and board members don't produce anything either (the evil white collar workers) but neither do the janitors, electricians, mechanics, truck drivers, or landscapers. We're employee owned so we all know where the deficiencies are. Our 401k is handled by an outside firm (as it should be) and we are audited on a regular basis for proper accounting, paperwork, and procedures. Someone still has to administrate all that to keep the business end of the business flowing. I hear our salesmen complain about not having anything to sell or about late deliveries which makes them look bad to customers. I hear the shop workers complain about unrealistic deadlines and lack of materials or broken equipment. However, when everyone does their job instead of worrying about everyone else then things flow along really smoothly and we all make money (profit sharing is a wonderful thing!). In my opinion, selfish people who don't grasp that simple concept should be immediately escorted to the door - no matter which area they work in.

As for "cheap" foreign products... have you guys priced a Toyota or Honda lately? How about Lexus or Acura? The cheapest cars I can find are American (partially due to no import tariffs) and Korean. The competition to the American cars are almost always higher priced yet people buy them any way. I think this has to do with the "perception" that American quality is suspect (which comes from years and years of horrendous quality control). I know that in recent years the big three have made HUGE strides in quality but that perception isn't going to be righted over night. With that being said, my Dodge Ram is coming close to being the worst vehicle I've ever owned but my two Toyotas never let me down AND they're cheaper to repair if they do. My recent experience with Mopar Performance reproduction parts has practically caused me to vow to never buy anything with an MP stamp again yet my Chinese reproduction trim is nearly perfect (yet still expensive). I will base my opinions on what I observe and the pain it causes me before I will blindly follow anyone else.

As for Chrysler, if you can find the one person to blame then fire them. Otherwise, their failure is a group effort.

Troy

[Ghoste]

Why are you always the most reasonable point of view?

[TK73]

Why are you always the most reasonable point of view?

Mood stabilizers...  Paxil, Prozac, other SSRI's, work every time 

[Troy]

Another thing I just thought of when responding to another post...

Without sounding too condescending... if Chrysler closes a plant the UAW workers will get nearly their full salary from Chrysler. If I read it right, this goes through September. Shame, the white collar guys will only get unemployment until it runs out. By having contracts like these it's no wonder the companies are in deep trouble. Chrysler has to cut production by 20% but they can't close any plants without having to pay the assembly line workers. No wonder these guys are always harping about "Buy American". Here's an idea - make a product I want to buy. I don't buy generic ice cream because it tastes gross, I don't go to restaurants that I don't like, I don't pay to watch bad sports teams, I don't ride the bus since it take four times longer to get anywhere, I don't buy tires that only last 5,000 miles and have no traction, I don't vacation in Omaha Nebraska, and I don't watch B movies in a theater so why would a buy a car that is overpriced and has no style, poor construction, and questionable reliability? Sorry, that's not the way I do things.

A local steel mill has been closed for something like a year due to contract negotiations with the union workers. Meanwhile, these guys don't have an income and the plant is making nothing so their customers are finding other suppliers. It's a bad situation because there may not be any orders (meaning no money, meaning no jobs) by the time everyone stops arguing and production starts up again. Of course they will all blame each other but in the end it's a lack of compromise and a lot of selfishness from both parties. If the company goes bankrupt then they're all screwed any way so what point was proven? Anyone with an inkling of intelligence can research the steel industry to get a feel for the overall market conditions. These steel plants supply the auto manufacturers but maybe that's too many dots to connect for some people.

Troy

[Troy]

Why are you always the most reasonable point of view?

Mood stabilizers...  Paxil, Prozac, other SSRI's, work every time 

I buy everything through some online pharmacy in Taiwan - do you think that's a good idea?

Troy

[hemihead]

Troy, i agree with alot of your points but in one you state how expensive Jap cars are ( more than American) then the next one you say you don't buy cars that are overpriced?

[Johnny SixPack]

Troy, i agree with alot of your points but in one you state how expensive Jap cars are ( more than American) then the next one you say you don't buy cars that are overpriced?

Expensive does not always equal overpriced. 

[69DodgeCharger]

Or as the old saying goes....

"You get what you pay for"

[Troy]

Troy, i agree with alot of your points but in one you state how expensive Jap cars are ( more than American) then the next one you say you don't buy cars that are overpriced?

Expensive does not always equal overpriced. 

Exactly, but let me explain. Another hobby of mine is mountain biking. I refuse to let anyone buy me mountain bike parts because, invariably, they purchase based on cost. I'm a best-bang-for-the-buck guy and I love to get deals but I try to balance that with quality. I can buy a $50 set of wheels for my bike but if I bust them 5 miles out on the trail then I'm the one who has to carry the mess back to the trailhead. I don't need $2000 wheels though because I'm light and ride smooth (yes, there are $2000 mountain bike wheels!). There are some $400-500 wheels with 90% of the performance of the expensive ones but many times better strength and quality than the cheapies. To me, that's an outstanding deal because it provides me with more than I need without blowing my budget. I think that's being a smart shopper. On a smaller scale, a cheap chain is $12 but I can break several in a season. A good chain is $28 but I've had the same one for 4 years. As long as it holds together I don't have to walk so the $28 chain is cheaper in the long run and much less frustrating. So, the $28 chain would be considered "expensive" but probably "underpriced" in terms of the value it provides.

I'm all about removing the stress from my life. To me, it's worth the money to pay more for reliability and quality. In the long run it's cheaper as well because I don't have to miss work or deal with rental cars and towing. If one car is $2000 more but has 1/3rd of the defects then it's a better buy in my opinion.

Troy

[89MOPAR]

 In defense of the "big 3 " , UAW , and higher priced items...
I have an 03 Ram 4x4 Hemi that I bought new, very reliable, never a day lost to any issues, nearly 60K miles on it, still faster and better looking than 95 % of the trucks on the road.
  So someone covered by UAW helped put that truck together. That day they were doing their jobs quite well.

I'd rather pay more for the better item as well.  If it means buying a replacement part thru the Dodge dealer  for more expen$e to get a part enigneered and built to OEM standards I'll gladly pay more.  Better than saving a few dollars on some cheaply made inferior part from NAPA - Autozone, etc.

  - I hope the "American " manufacturers concentrate on putting out good cars, that don't look like warm jellybeans and play to the common denominator of the Accord and Camry. If they get less market share, so be it. Just do it honestly + profitably with well built designs.

Buying / Desingning a car is very tough for any manufacturer.  Much easier to compete for the $$, when you are selling $4 cheap ice cream, $ 50 tires, or cheaply made but "stylish" $ 500 furniture.

I also work with 2 guys who had to fight with Toyota/Toyota dealer, to take back brand new Tundra and a brand new Tacoma [ last 2 yrs] for months because of tranny problems.  Funny enough the one guy still wants to buy Toyota on his next vehicle, even with all the grief they gave him taking the truck back.  Both guys had to go thru regional reps / lemon law / multiplre service depts / arbitration, etc.  In the end both got replacement Trucks because they were persistent. The guy who wants another Toyota has sworn off Chevy for a relatively minor problem he had with his... -used- Chevy 10 years ago. So it's indeed funny how peoples psychology works.

[Troy]

Just FYI - many parts aren't being manufactured by the individual automobile manufacturers any more. A few examples that are compatible with our cars are alternators, A/C compressors, and transmissions. Some of the items are ones you'd expect to be outsourced like tires, light bulbs, clips, bolts, and fasteners but also include brake rotors, pads, electronics, suspension components, and radiators. Heck, even back in the 60s Dodge was buying "universal" type parts from Dana and others. The parts retailers have access to these same manufacturers so I'm not sure if I buy into the idea that the dealer parts are a higher quality. They are just guaranteed (mostly) to be the same as OEM. It's cheaper to make a single part and sell it to 5 or 6 companies for 12-15 different vehicles than it is for each company to design, test, and build every single piece. Companies have been raiding parts bins for years to create new cars on a budget (Fiero anyone?).

If you want to see something that really highlights this concept, read about the Tesla car company. They bought nearly every piece for their car off the shelf (they are mostly computer geeks with no manufacturing experience). Even with all the technology (it's an electric supercar), they managed to keep the price inline with what you'd expect from a much larger (higher production) company.

Troy