Chrysler to cut 13,000 jobs

[DC_1]

Wonder how long before the Germans dump it.............and how long before the Chinese pick it up to give themselves legitimacy in the North American market.

[PocketThunder]

They are trying to cut costs down $1000 on average for each vehicle.

[hemigeno]

This is big news around here, since yesterday it was reported that the Fenton Asembly Plant #2 (one of two plants at the Fenton, MO site, and currently producing pickup trucks) will be shut down.  2,300 +/- people will lose their jobs in Q3-2008.     This is after the local taxing districts gave millions in tax breaks to DCX to get them to keep investing in the Fenton plants.  They're supposedly investing $1Bil in Plant #1 (makes minivans) for upgrades, etc.  We'll see if they hold true to their word.

**Edit** Just read a news report about the layoff anouncement.  According to that report, they are only losing a shift at the Fenton truck plant.  Better news than closing the whole plant, but still not great for some folks.

[twilt]

And that trend will continue until the UAW and the manufacturers re-negotiate post employment benefit packages.  Its really not rocket science to understand. Most companies no longer offer traditional retirement pensions plans. 401ks are the way it works now. The manufacturers saddled
with antique retirement plans will continue to slash domestic jobs, move production out of country, and outsource when possible.

[Charger-Bodie]

what the need to do is det rid of alot of the managment types that earn 350,000 a year and stop blaming it on the guy actually building the cars way too many overpaid fatcats

[69Chrgr]

And that trend will continue until the UAW and the manufacturers re-negotiate post employment benefit packages.  Its really not rocket science to understand. Most companies no longer offer traditional retirement pensions plans. 401ks are the way it works now. The manufacturers saddled
with antique retirement plans will continue to slash domestic jobs, move production out of country, and outsource when possible.

You nailed that one down to a T. The UAW workers are the only employees I know where people pushing brooms make 25 bucks an hour or more. If the UAW doesn't change their "you owe me" attitude, GM, Ford and the current Chrysler(what's left) will go by the wayside.

[Big Lebowski]

What the auto industry needs is a $4000 tariff on each Toyota. Why not? They tariff our cars in Japan & China, screw 'em. Secondly, build a better looking Charger, in fact build a retro 2 door Charger like the Challenger and we'll buy one.

[hemihead]

And that trend will continue until the UAW and the manufacturers re-negotiate post employment benefit packages.  Its really not rocket science to understand. Most companies no longer offer traditional retirement pensions plans. 401ks are the way it works now. The manufacturers saddled
with antique retirement plans will continue to slash domestic jobs, move production out of country, and outsource when possible.

You nailed that one down to a T. The UAW workers are the only employees I know where people pushing brooms make 25 bucks an hour or more. If the UAW doesn't change their "you owe me" attitude, GM, Ford and the current Chrysler(what's left) will go by the wayside.

So the  traditional retirement plans are bad? What happens when one of these companies mismanage your 401K investment?
And I don't think that the antique retirement plans are the reason for ' slashing domestic jobs,move production out of the country,and outsource when possible'.Try just good old fashioned greed.
And UAW workers making $25 pushing brooms?How many UAW workers do you know personally that do that or is that just the same thing that has be said over and over the last 30 years?How many white collar workers get their nice salary and benefits for playing on the internet everday instead of doing their job?Truth hurts....

[bmoparmofo]

Hey, you to see what problems are like?....Try Michigan.....Detroit, the motor city....more like the unemployment city, Its really a mess, we are in a tie if not for the worst economy in the states. The housing prices are down $20,000 from when I bought in 2003 Not a good time to be an automotive driven economy city.I hope someone figures it out.

[69DodgeCharger]

I would agree that the Big 3 are bloated with way to many management and administrative type employees, but it is that way in almost all corporations. The culture and politics of the corporate world protect them only second to profits and shareholder demands. Until shareholders demand that these corporations trim the fat in the management ranks and get rid of the ridiculously overpaid top officers these problems will continue.

I also would agree that the UAW is pretty much deadweight on the industry at this point. They have long outlived their usefulness. I worked for them for 9 years and they are a joke. They are pretty much non existent if you have a problem, but they are right there to get those dues, or give your money to political candidates and causes that you might not agree with. They always have money for new offices or to send committee members to conferences and seminars to get drunk for a week or two under the guise of training and education.

As far as tariffs go, write your congressman. maybe you can pay him more than the corporate lobbyists and convince him to vote for them, but I doubt it. And besides at this point Toyota and Honda might be making a better product at a competitive price than their Big 3 counterparts. I know one experience with a Big 3 service department to try and get a warranty problem fixed is enough to cure a person from ever thinking about buying a new car again, not to mention the "other" brands hold their resale value better, are more reliable and get better gas mileage. So who's really to blame? My 92 Toyota Tercel is perhaps the best vehicle I have ever owned. I paid $200 for it, have put over 20,000 miles on it, it gets 35 MPG and I have never put a dime into it other than gas and oil. I would get in it and drive it to California right now without a worry. I never trusted my new Dodge pickups, or my current Ford Ranger to do that!

[hemihead]

But still amazing how everyone buys a classic AMERICAN Musclecar.Why isn't everyone colllecting classic Jap cars if they are sooo much better? hmmm...

[69DodgeCharger]

But still amazing how everyone buys a classic AMERICAN Musclecar.Why isn't everyone colllecting classic Jap cars if they are sooo much better? hmmm...

What's buying a 30-40 year old musclecar have to do with making a product that people will buy, and actually making the tough choices that are necessary to keep your company in business? Let me think about it.....nothing. These are "toys" to the majority of owners. Very few of them are investment grade items. Do you think the Big 3's problems just popped up overnight? They didn't. They created most of their own problems, Unfortunately it will always be the people at the bottom that suffer for the people at the tops mismanagement and mistakes. Which is what we are seeing now. As long as our Gov't is bought and paid for and nobody revolts against corporate greed this problem is only going to get worse.

[charge-it]

They are trying to cut costs down $1000 on average for each vehicle.

[charge-it]

And that trend will continue until the UAW and the manufacturers re-negotiate post employment benefit packages.  Its really not rocket science to understand. Most companies no longer offer traditional retirement pensions plans. 401ks are the way it works now. The manufacturers saddled
with antique retirement plans will continue to slash domestic jobs, move production out of country, and outsource when possible.

All the while management collects outrageous salaries and bonuses. It`s not the workers pensions and benefits it`s corporate greed plain and simple. The very people that made these companies rich are now being asked to give back what they negotiated and earned in good faith. Funny how a company like Toyota and Honda can move here, build  modern facilities. pay great wages, and stlll turn a big profit...The answer isn`t to move the jobs overseas.....

[ChargerST]

What the auto industry needs is a $4000 tariff on each Toyota. Why not? They tariff our cars in Japan & China, screw 'em. Secondly, build a better looking Charger, in fact build a retro 2 door Charger like the Challenger and we'll buy one.

That's why most companies like Toyota or Honda have plants in the US..a tariff would only hurt imported cars not those built in the US (no matter if it's a Japanese, German or US brand). And doesn't the WTO under US leadership fight tariffs around the globe? Wouldn't do much for the credibility of the US if they'd impose taxes or tariffs on Japanese cars..

[41husk]

Geno, there was a guy that worked at the plant in Fenton that made mini vans,  He lived out by six flags.  He had mopars all over the place, I used to get parts from him.  Do you have a name or any way to contact?

[twilt]

So the  traditional retirement plans are bad? What happens when one of these companies mismanage your 401K investment?
And I don't think that the antique retirement plans are the reason for ' slashing domestic jobs,move production out of the country,and outsource when possible'.Try just good old fashioned greed.
And UAW workers making $25 pushing brooms?How many UAW workers do you know personally that do that or is that just the same thing that has be said over and over the last 30 years?How many white collar workers get their nice salary and benefits for playing on the internet everday instead of doing their job?Truth hurts....

I don`t necessarily think that the traditional retirement plans are BAD , they are obviously great for the worker. However, they are antique models in the modern business sector. Very few companies still offer them. They put the companies that offer them at a large disadvantage in being competitive. The traditional retirement plans are a HUGE financial burden on the companies. That burden gets passed on to their customers in the form of higher prices on every vehicle that they sell. Why do you think foreign manufacturers are building assembly plants in the U.S. while at the same time domestic manufacturers are closing facilities, moving manufacturing across the border, and outsourcing as much as possible?  The foreign manufacturers building plants here pay competitive wages to actively working employees, they just dont have to pay a bunch of $$ for the health care and pensions of thousands and thousands of retirees. Once you retire...they don`t owe you a dime. As far as companies mismanaging 401k`s, laws and practices have changed. Typically an outside company is running your 401k and YOU the worker have control over the how/where/what that your $$ are invested in.

[TeeWJay426]

What the auto industry needs is a $4000 tariff on each Toyota. Why not? They tariff our cars in Japan & China, screw 'em. Secondly, build a better looking Charger, in fact build a retro 2 door Charger like the Challenger and we'll buy one.

That's why most companies like Toyota or Honda have plants in the US..a tariff would only hurt imported cars not those built in the US (no matter if it's a Japanese, German or US brand). And doesn't the WTO under US leadership fight tariffs around the globe? Wouldn't do much for the credibility of the US if they'd impose taxes or tariffs on Japanese cars..

And curiously enough, they do it WITHOUT the UAW.... and don't want them in there. Neither do the employees... they are kept happy without them. Amazing what a change in philosophy and management style can accomplish.

So the traditional retirement plans are bad? What happens when one of these companies mismanage your 401K investment?

Companies don't manage the 401K plans of the employees- most of them are not involved at all. Mine for instance is entirely run by Fidelity Investments. That's one of the big advantages for companies utilizing them in the first place.

[jmanscharger]

Wonder how long before the Germans dump it.............and how long before the Chinese pick it up to give themselves legitimacy in the North American market.

Dr. Z was in a story this morning that quoted him as saying they may sell, didn't mention to whom yet. My wife quipped that they bought it and ran it into the ground.

[DC_1]

A couple thoughts

1. Unions of yesteryear servered their purpose and helped to not only improve employee wages and treatment but also create the wealth of the middle class. However, modern companies in todays world realize their best asset is their people. If they want to attract the best they can they have to give them a good wage and comfortable working environment. If you are good at what you do you excel in modern companies of today not based on years served but instead by your capabilities and contributions. Unions today appear to nurture the "Us" vs. "The Company" attitude and seem to protect those who are the worst at their job and are cancerous to the attitude of others around them.Unions have also realized that in todays world of "Just In Time" inventory the threat of a strike will cripple a company in no time and theefore they can blackmail the company into giving them ridiculous increases that mortgage the company to a point that is unsustainable.
Do executives get too much?....maybe they do......but, the life span of an executive isn't very long. Even in the Automotive industry. They are not paid large sums of money for long if they are not competent at what they were hired to do.By contrast a union worker is protected by the Union no matter how bad he may be at his job so long as he pays his dues every month.

2. The state of the North American Automobile industry has been sliding for some time. The fundamental problem i believe is the industry is fragmenting and they are too big for the market share they now have. They are unable to keep their former market share because as it has been said before they don't seem to build cars people want to buy. They also don't seem to be very good at competing on a global basis. They don't build cars that the world wants to buy. They seem to cater to what the Amercan consumer wants yet they seem to miss the mark there as well. This is what the Japanese have seemed to figure out.

3. Cuts backs and downsizing will continue. Companies need to continue to increase proffit and reduce cost and product price. Everytime you go into Walmart and want to buy that 55" TV for $900 think of how unaffordable it would be if it was made in the US by unionized employees. We all want modern technology, conveniences, and products at affordable prices. Companies want profits. The assembly of an automobile and the making of its parts I believe will eventually be pushed to low wage countries just like the textile industries, the electronics industries, and many others.

[hemigeno]

Geno, there was a guy that worked at the plant in Fenton that made mini vans,  He lived out by six flags.  He had mopars all over the place, I used to get parts from him.  Do you have a name or any way to contact?

No, I don't know anyone from that particular area into Mopars, sorry.  Only guy around here that fits the description is from the Catawissa/Robertsville area.  Is Clay Kossuth the guy you're looking for?  He retired from Chrysler a good while back, so if it's someone who currently works at Plant #1 I won't have a clue who that is.

Oh, and it was announced yesterday that it is the minivan plant is the one losing a shift, not the truck plant.  There'll be a big battle for the remaining positions, with seniority being the deciding factor as to who goes or stays. 

I also found it interesting how the UAW issued a statement something to the effect that their membership is not responsible for the losses at Chrysler, but the workmen are the ones who have to suffer.  Nothing but playing the blame game, which is a total waste of time.  Their view is pretty much that if you are a member of the UAW, you are entitled to a lifetime of income from that manufacturer (even after you retire), despite what the economy does or what governmental regulations do to choke off a thriving industry.  For a lot of these large industrial/manufacturing entities, the days of expecting an employee to do 8 hours work for 8 hours pay is something of a novelty.  If you spend any amount of time talking to some of these union factory workers, it is appalling to find out how little work they actually have to do.  Some positions do require a guy to work, but those are the least sought-after positions in the whole plant.

That's one thing I like about being involved with the Carpenter's union (my company employs Carpenters and Laborers).  No seniority considerations, etc.  If you can't do the job and pull your weight, you're dead wood and I don't have to keep anyone like that around.   

[Brock Samson]

great info.. about a bad situation..
but it's sure nice to read some informed opinions and of personal experiance... insteread of inflamed retoric and fear inspired dogma.

Yesa 401 Ks seem to be the deal right now if avail. will any of our supposed future social security or pensions exist in ten years?..
so you support yourself and insure your own future, that's as it should be, is it not?..
I wonder though,.. what is happening to the middle class?.. we seem to be growing the upper and lower classes makeing for a truly shocking disparity... downtown san fran has 2 million dollor two bedroom condos with homeless sleeping in the alley behind... who may have once been an assembly line workers with a familys or might be a single moms without an education...
  and the cost of education seems to be what these "White" collor workers are being compinsated for, problem with that is  the "Operating Systems" are being phased in at an ever increasing rate,.. so for example what you went to school for years to master might be obsolete in a few years... or a robot may do it...
  ...sorry for my ramble, I was invested emotionly in the old Chysler Corp and mourn it's passing...

[greenpigs]

I might buy a Nitro if they offer employee pricing to the public, thats how I would help.

[runningman]

Just had to put my 2 cents here.  I work at the Mack II engine plant that builds the 3.7 V-6.  I am an electrician in the dept that machines blocks, bedplates, cranks and rods.  I was transferred here after being at the mound road engine plant that has been closed.  I have only been with Chrysler for 12 years but have seen huge changes.  We have already adopted all the new practices that DCX has asked the other engine plants to do if they want to get new products.  These include lean/smart manufacturing, tpm, and we are the first and only so far to work the 3-2-120 work schedule.  We were pretty much forced to adopt these new practices but everyone has done so with no problems.  What this amounts to is about half the workforce doing the same amount of work.  Right now we are pretty much running as lean as possible, we still have janitors and what not that are making good money but this has been cut way back and I have heard that this will be outsourced soon.  I will admit I couldn't believe what I was seeing when I first started Chrysler as a production working, it was about a year after I got out of the Air Force and was pretty much shocked to see all the people sitting, sleeping, doing drugs and pretty much everything you could think of.  This has all but been eliminated (at least at our plant).  The new workforce has alot more responsibilities and I am really encouraged from what I am seeing at our plant.  Now here is the problem, our plant has only been opened 6 yrs or so and we are already scheduled to be closed in 2011 as the company goes to the new v-6 world engine that is being built jointly by chrysler and some other foreign automakers.  These plants will not be chrysler, they are GEMA.  So we will pretty much be out of jobs.  We have gotten numerous awards and recognition for being a world class plant and we are right behind toyota.......Just goes to show that it doesn't really matter how productive you are or how well you do your jobs.  I am curious after reading some of these posts, do the foreign automakers not have any pension plans at all?  I do agree, the government should have leveled the playing field right from the beginning with tariffs and what not.  lIt's probably too late to do anything about that but some kind of national health care would help everyone........

[Neal_J]

The sad reality seems to be that for decades the US automakers were poisoned by inept management and overpaid unskilled workers that we shielded by greedy unions.  That's not to say there weren't good hard-working people in the mix but there are a lot of jackoffs.  This problem is now compounded by aggressive Asian car companies that are better- managed who work collaboratively with skilled workers, have a large crop of unskilled workers who are glad to bolt bumpers on for $1/hour and are not encumbered by unions.  Further, these competitors do not have life-long pension and medical liabilities for their former workers.   

Is it really that hard to see why the wheels are coming off DCX, GM and Ford?

[Brock Samson]

i remember 1974 and the dissapointing line up at the dealership... and the gas pumps... so we knew then how bad it could be...
one more dollor per gallon and were all gonna be in the poor house... 
unless of course your "old Money". 

[hemihead]

Amazing how everyone wants to blame the little guy trying to make a buck and raise his family.If white collar had it's way ,labor would still be working 14 hours a day 6 days a week, making 10 cents a day then wonder why they are paying so much taxes to welfare.i live in the Pittsburgh area , the once mighty Steel city.When the Unions got driven out, it wasn't the White collar guys who lost their jobs , homes,and even families.
Now around here what do you have? The production jobs are all minimum wage or just above, 12 hour shifts and the company has mandatory overtime.Now I imagine all the white collar workers will cry about how hard they have it.
There is no middle class any longer.That died with Labor Unions,Union Busting,Reganomics ( the great union breaker himself,except the Actors Union that he was a member of) Unions scare the crap of of management and the government.The Kennedys went after Hoffa and the Teamsters because with a strike they could shut the country down.Too much power.Unions also cut into the management and stockholders profits by forcing them to share the profits a little more fairly.Can't have that now can we?
If foreign labor is so much cheaper, and everything is built somewhere else, then why do those same products cost nearly as much as the evil Union made goods?Because of the same reason they went to cheaper labor.They make a bigger profit margin.
So keep blaming the little guy because he barely scratches out a living for white collar making the billion dollar losses.

[69DodgeCharger]

I worked for the UAW for 9 years, all they did was steal my money. I now work in a non-union shop and make much more than I did at the union shop, plus we are treated better by management, have better profit sharing, 401k and insurance plans. So somebody please enlighten me to what the great benefit of working for a union is? Because I'm sure not seeing it. And don't even bother with the argument that they protect jobs.....They don't, and they can't Do you really think that the UAW is gonna stop any of the big 3 from outsourcing, closing plants, and reducing the workforce? They're not, but they will be right there with there greedy hand out to get those dues every month. Problem is they are a "paper tiger" with no power anymore and everybody knows that. hourly and management workers alike.

[DC_1]

If white collar had it's way ,labor would still be working 14 hours a day 6 days a week, making 10 cents a day

you don't actually beleive that , do you!

[hemihead]

NEVER underestimate corporate greed.Why do you think they all move production plants to foreign countries? Cheap labor!

[Shakey]

....was pretty much shocked to see all the people sitting, sleeping, doing drugs and pretty much everything you could think of........

I've heard way to many stories like this over the years from CAW members who were "proud" to tell them.   

One fella I used to know, cut his hand quite badly on a weekend.  He held the pain and put off going to the Doctor until he could get to work on Monday where he claimed it happened on the job.  This is the same fella that got mixed up badly with drugs, used them while working, got caught and the union stood up for him, sent him to rehab, paid for by Chrysler, and had his job waiting for him when he got out six months later.

I know only a small percentage of the employees are this worthless but these are the stories that circulate and stick in ones mind.   

So, now the gravy train is coming to a grinding halt and they all throw their arms up in the air, wonder why and cry foul.   

[hemihead]

....was pretty much shocked to see all the people sitting, sleeping, doing drugs and pretty much everything you could think of........

I've heard way to many stories like this over the years from CAW members who were "proud" to tell them.   

One fella I used to know, cut his hand quite badly on a weekend.  He held the pain and put off going to the Doctor until he could get to work on Monday where he claimed it happened on the job.  This is the same fella that got mixed up badly with drugs, used them while working, got caught and the union stood up for him, sent him to rehab, paid for by Chrysler, and had his job waiting for him when he got out six months later.

I know only a small percentage of the employees are this worthless but these are the stories that circulate and stick in ones mind.   

So, now the gravy train is coming to a grinding halt and they all throw their arms up in the air, wonder why and cry foul.   

The part about the guy to to rehab and etc.,etc. sounds like a lot of white collar workers,politicians,actors and actresses,... and nobody seems to mind.

[Neal_J]

The harsh economic reality is that neither GM, Ford or Chrysler can compete effectively in a global economy.  Mark my words:  in 10 years, all three will either be dead or subsidiaries of the Asian car companies.  That's bank.

Neal J

[69DodgeCharger]

The harsh economic reality is that neither GM, Ford or Chrysler can compete effectively in a global economy.  Mark my words:  in 10 years, all three will either be dead or subsidiaries of the Asian car companies.  That's bank.


What's sad is that your probably right. Americans just won't work for what the rest of the world will.....We have had it good for so long we have lost touch with the harsh realities of the rest of the "poor" world and what they will do to make a better life for themselves. And the greedy corporations and their greedy stockholders don't give a second thought to selling out the American way of life.....yet. One day they will wake up to find that their ways have turned around and bitten them in the ass. Imagine the day when they wake up and find out find out that their investments have been bought by some Asian finance company you have never heard of. what do you suppose that will feel like.

[hemihead]

The harsh economic reality is that neither GM, Ford or Chrysler can compete effectively in a global economy.  Mark my words:  in 10 years, all three will either be dead or subsidiaries of the Asian car companies.  That's bank.


What's sad is that your probably right. Americans just won't work for what the rest of the world will.....We have had it good for so long we have lost touch with the harsh realities of the rest of the "poor" world and what they will do to make a better life for themselves. And the greedy corporations and their greedy stockholders don't give a second thought to selling out the American way of life.....yet. One day they will wake up to find that their ways have turned around and bitten them in the ass. Imagine the day when they wake up and find out find out that their investments have been bought by some Asian finance company you have never heard of. what do you suppose that will feel like.

They won't really get hurt,they made their millions already.it will only hurt the little guy.

[Ghoste]

I still don't get why we are the ones who have to "wake up" and accept a lower standard of living.  I don't think we could live for what much of the world accepts as a wage unless we want to build our ownlittle shacks and get rid of cars, appliances, health care and so on.  Why is it wrong to adopt the idea that maybe the rest of the world is entitled to a better standard of living and instead of us "competing" with them in a bid to search the globe for lower and lower wages, bring them up to our level.
Yes, yes, yes, I know that is a foolish socialist utopian hippy environentalist commie pinko fag tree hugging whale loving pipe dream and that it flies in the face of good old survival of the fittest free market rules, but why?  Why do we have to wake up and live more poorly?  So that we get a toaster at WalMart for 10 bucks instead of 25?
I'll go a step further in the American automaker demise and predict that in 20 years, the Asians won't even have their own factories.  All of the their modular assembling will be farmed out to small cheap bidders all over the world and the Chinese will own almost alll manufacturing.  The Chinese are already trying to buy the raw material sources around the world and a boat can be here from China in less than a week. Dealers will disappear as we know them and WalMart will start selling Chinese made cars for dirt cheap. 
Wanna make money?  Invest in port building equipment on the west coast.  And while you are worried about waking up those overpaid Americans, remember the next time you walk out of WalMart with that 30 dollar dvd player, that China is still a communist country.
Oh, and I have the cheap dvd player too so you can insert the hypocrite smiley here.

[DC_1]

Why is it wrong to adopt the idea that maybe the rest of the world is entitled to a better standard of living and instead of us "competing" with them in a bid to search the globe for lower and lower wages, bring them up to our level.

I maybe selfish and I am not tyring to be an elitist but, I don't want the rest of the worlds standard of living to increase. You think gas prices are high now. What do you think they would be if every family in China had a car in the driveway....or 2.5 televisions per house hold....or any of the other plastic products that are made with petroleum. if you think the tree huggers are upset now about the rain forest, global warming and the appetite for natural resources, what would happen if you increase the consumption of products proportionate to the rate of the U.S in a country that has not millions but billions of people. I think it would be disastrous.

I didn't make the rules but even in nature there is a hierarchy... somethings climb to the top of the food chain while others peril. If you try to make every living thing equal I think you are screwing with the balance of life......its unfortunate but that just the way things are.

Don't you just love when a thread is all over the place

[hemihead]

I would still like to know how many people out there who despise the unions and think American workers are overpaid and lazy, and think foreign products are so great,own one of those Jap or Chinese made tool sets?There's quality for you.Now someone will come along and tell me that doesn't count, right? Sure they are making stuff cheap in China, etc. but look at how much is just cheap junk.And people will suck it up because it is less expensive.How many of you guys ever tried to hang some of those high quality aftermarket panels on your car? What a joke.But hey, you keep trying to tell me how all this foreign garbage is better.God help this country and the not to bright people in it.

[Ghoste]

Actually, Sydmoe, I agree with you on much of the hierarchy stuff.  It's easy to do when you are at the better end of that food chain.  But doesn't that relate directly to my question of why we should "wake up" that we're at the top of the food chain and we need to get to the bottom if we want to keep eating?

How long before those poorer nations begin buying our old musclecars and driving them up in value again?  Or do you think they want to adopt any of our automotive values?

[Troy]

This topic seems to be an absolute mess but I'll throw out my thoughts any way...

When I was still in college I worked at a company as a co-op. It would amaze me that very often people would argue about the best way to do something, who should do it, who should be in charge, or who should get the credit. All the while nothing was getting accomplished. I made the point several times that if we didn't have anything to deliver when the customer's deadline came due or that if we delivered a sub-par product that customer would not pay. If our company did not get paid then, eventually, they wouldn't have enough money to pay the employees who spent all their time arguing. Sure enough, that company is gone. Blame whoever you want but, in the end, the customer has the money and if they don't get what they want/demand then it's all downhill from there. Being bitter and placing blame does NOT get the work done nor does it move product out the door. The goal of every business is to make money. Period. The way to do that is to hire the right people in each position and get them all to work together. Just like in the sports world, a disfunctional team almost guarantees failure (even if you have the world's best individuals).

I have worked manual labor jobs in the past. My parents work in factories and are members of unions. What I learned from my experiences is that I never want to live that way. I work hard and I actually enjoy manual labor but I am driven and expect the people around me to pull their weight. I get really ticked off when I'm doing all the work and others are sitting on their rear complaining about how they're being treated poorly. My mom is working herself into an early grave while the people she works with seem fairly incompetent. Of course, they have seniority and a union so it's impossible to throw the dead weight out and hire someone who takes pride in their work. Yes, I work in the white collar world and we have similar situations. I still get ticked when I'm doing all the work and others are sitting around complaining about how they are being treated poorly (or playing Solitaire).

But you know what, by myself I can be responsible for as much as $5-8 million of the company's yearly income. I make really cool stuff and I'm excited about it so I can deal with all the politics and laziness. I will also be the first one to speak up when someone else asks "why aren't we making money" - especially if they point fingers at me (I am 1/300th of the company but generate 1/20th of the revenue). Do you realize how many widgets an assembly line worker has to make to get in that territory? Of course, the salesmen don't make a single item but the rest of the company would be in disarray without them. The marketing team, accountants, human resource administrators, receptionist, information systems group, executives, and board members don't produce anything either (the evil white collar workers) but neither do the janitors, electricians, mechanics, truck drivers, or landscapers. We're employee owned so we all know where the deficiencies are. Our 401k is handled by an outside firm (as it should be) and we are audited on a regular basis for proper accounting, paperwork, and procedures. Someone still has to administrate all that to keep the business end of the business flowing. I hear our salesmen complain about not having anything to sell or about late deliveries which makes them look bad to customers. I hear the shop workers complain about unrealistic deadlines and lack of materials or broken equipment. However, when everyone does their job instead of worrying about everyone else then things flow along really smoothly and we all make money (profit sharing is a wonderful thing!). In my opinion, selfish people who don't grasp that simple concept should be immediately escorted to the door - no matter which area they work in.

As for "cheap" foreign products... have you guys priced a Toyota or Honda lately? How about Lexus or Acura? The cheapest cars I can find are American (partially due to no import tariffs) and Korean. The competition to the American cars are almost always higher priced yet people buy them any way. I think this has to do with the "perception" that American quality is suspect (which comes from years and years of horrendous quality control). I know that in recent years the big three have made HUGE strides in quality but that perception isn't going to be righted over night. With that being said, my Dodge Ram is coming close to being the worst vehicle I've ever owned but my two Toyotas never let me down AND they're cheaper to repair if they do. My recent experience with Mopar Performance reproduction parts has practically caused me to vow to never buy anything with an MP stamp again yet my Chinese reproduction trim is nearly perfect (yet still expensive). I will base my opinions on what I observe and the pain it causes me before I will blindly follow anyone else.

As for Chrysler, if you can find the one person to blame then fire them. Otherwise, their failure is a group effort.

Troy

[Ghoste]

Why are you always the most reasonable point of view?

[TK73]

Why are you always the most reasonable point of view?

Mood stabilizers...  Paxil, Prozac, other SSRI's, work every time 

[Troy]

Another thing I just thought of when responding to another post...

Without sounding too condescending... if Chrysler closes a plant the UAW workers will get nearly their full salary from Chrysler. If I read it right, this goes through September. Shame, the white collar guys will only get unemployment until it runs out. By having contracts like these it's no wonder the companies are in deep trouble. Chrysler has to cut production by 20% but they can't close any plants without having to pay the assembly line workers. No wonder these guys are always harping about "Buy American". Here's an idea - make a product I want to buy. I don't buy generic ice cream because it tastes gross, I don't go to restaurants that I don't like, I don't pay to watch bad sports teams, I don't ride the bus since it take four times longer to get anywhere, I don't buy tires that only last 5,000 miles and have no traction, I don't vacation in Omaha Nebraska, and I don't watch B movies in a theater so why would a buy a car that is overpriced and has no style, poor construction, and questionable reliability? Sorry, that's not the way I do things.

A local steel mill has been closed for something like a year due to contract negotiations with the union workers. Meanwhile, these guys don't have an income and the plant is making nothing so their customers are finding other suppliers. It's a bad situation because there may not be any orders (meaning no money, meaning no jobs) by the time everyone stops arguing and production starts up again. Of course they will all blame each other but in the end it's a lack of compromise and a lot of selfishness from both parties. If the company goes bankrupt then they're all screwed any way so what point was proven? Anyone with an inkling of intelligence can research the steel industry to get a feel for the overall market conditions. These steel plants supply the auto manufacturers but maybe that's too many dots to connect for some people.

Troy

[Troy]

Why are you always the most reasonable point of view?

Mood stabilizers...  Paxil, Prozac, other SSRI's, work every time 

I buy everything through some online pharmacy in Taiwan - do you think that's a good idea?

Troy

[hemihead]

Troy, i agree with alot of your points but in one you state how expensive Jap cars are ( more than American) then the next one you say you don't buy cars that are overpriced?

[Johnny SixPack]

Troy, i agree with alot of your points but in one you state how expensive Jap cars are ( more than American) then the next one you say you don't buy cars that are overpriced?

Expensive does not always equal overpriced. 

[69DodgeCharger]

Or as the old saying goes....

"You get what you pay for"

[Troy]

Troy, i agree with alot of your points but in one you state how expensive Jap cars are ( more than American) then the next one you say you don't buy cars that are overpriced?

Expensive does not always equal overpriced. 

Exactly, but let me explain. Another hobby of mine is mountain biking. I refuse to let anyone buy me mountain bike parts because, invariably, they purchase based on cost. I'm a best-bang-for-the-buck guy and I love to get deals but I try to balance that with quality. I can buy a $50 set of wheels for my bike but if I bust them 5 miles out on the trail then I'm the one who has to carry the mess back to the trailhead. I don't need $2000 wheels though because I'm light and ride smooth (yes, there are $2000 mountain bike wheels!). There are some $400-500 wheels with 90% of the performance of the expensive ones but many times better strength and quality than the cheapies. To me, that's an outstanding deal because it provides me with more than I need without blowing my budget. I think that's being a smart shopper. On a smaller scale, a cheap chain is $12 but I can break several in a season. A good chain is $28 but I've had the same one for 4 years. As long as it holds together I don't have to walk so the $28 chain is cheaper in the long run and much less frustrating. So, the $28 chain would be considered "expensive" but probably "underpriced" in terms of the value it provides.

I'm all about removing the stress from my life. To me, it's worth the money to pay more for reliability and quality. In the long run it's cheaper as well because I don't have to miss work or deal with rental cars and towing. If one car is $2000 more but has 1/3rd of the defects then it's a better buy in my opinion.

Troy

[89MOPAR]

 In defense of the "big 3 " , UAW , and higher priced items...
I have an 03 Ram 4x4 Hemi that I bought new, very reliable, never a day lost to any issues, nearly 60K miles on it, still faster and better looking than 95 % of the trucks on the road.
  So someone covered by UAW helped put that truck together. That day they were doing their jobs quite well.

I'd rather pay more for the better item as well.  If it means buying a replacement part thru the Dodge dealer  for more expen$e to get a part enigneered and built to OEM standards I'll gladly pay more.  Better than saving a few dollars on some cheaply made inferior part from NAPA - Autozone, etc.

  - I hope the "American " manufacturers concentrate on putting out good cars, that don't look like warm jellybeans and play to the common denominator of the Accord and Camry. If they get less market share, so be it. Just do it honestly + profitably with well built designs.

Buying / Desingning a car is very tough for any manufacturer.  Much easier to compete for the $$, when you are selling $4 cheap ice cream, $ 50 tires, or cheaply made but "stylish" $ 500 furniture.

I also work with 2 guys who had to fight with Toyota/Toyota dealer, to take back brand new Tundra and a brand new Tacoma [ last 2 yrs] for months because of tranny problems.  Funny enough the one guy still wants to buy Toyota on his next vehicle, even with all the grief they gave him taking the truck back.  Both guys had to go thru regional reps / lemon law / multiplre service depts / arbitration, etc.  In the end both got replacement Trucks because they were persistent. The guy who wants another Toyota has sworn off Chevy for a relatively minor problem he had with his... -used- Chevy 10 years ago. So it's indeed funny how peoples psychology works.

[Troy]

Just FYI - many parts aren't being manufactured by the individual automobile manufacturers any more. A few examples that are compatible with our cars are alternators, A/C compressors, and transmissions. Some of the items are ones you'd expect to be outsourced like tires, light bulbs, clips, bolts, and fasteners but also include brake rotors, pads, electronics, suspension components, and radiators. Heck, even back in the 60s Dodge was buying "universal" type parts from Dana and others. The parts retailers have access to these same manufacturers so I'm not sure if I buy into the idea that the dealer parts are a higher quality. They are just guaranteed (mostly) to be the same as OEM. It's cheaper to make a single part and sell it to 5 or 6 companies for 12-15 different vehicles than it is for each company to design, test, and build every single piece. Companies have been raiding parts bins for years to create new cars on a budget (Fiero anyone?).

If you want to see something that really highlights this concept, read about the Tesla car company. They bought nearly every piece for their car off the shelf (they are mostly computer geeks with no manufacturing experience). Even with all the technology (it's an electric supercar), they managed to keep the price inline with what you'd expect from a much larger (higher production) company.

Troy

[hemihead]

Yes the manufacturers did have ( and does) have alot of outside suppliers for parts.Gm and Ford own most of theirs while Chrysler has always bought most everything from someone else.Sometmes Chrysler engineered but made to their specs.Now, it is hard to believe that even the vaunted Jap companies build all their own parts. And I bet they are made in some 3rd world country also.I don't see any difference in quality between American and foreign cars.I think people are still thinking of 1979.

[89MOPAR]

 I realize Chrysler has a lot of stuff made for them through subcontractors and has for decades.

Let's put it this way, Parts I have bought from the big auto parts chains, and smaller locals, have a look + feel about them that tends to be cheaper, and I am sure that their failure rate,[ in my experience,] is much worse than parts I have bought at the dealer.

However there is no arguing the advantageous economics of adapting a part to many uses, or marketing the same part to different companies for re-sale.

  Either way , I'd rather keep the Dodge dealer in business than NAPA or Schucks / Kragen / O'Reilly / etc.  - even if it does cost more. I'll pay for "peace of mind"

[Troy]

You generally have to ask at the parts store for the higher quality parts. I wonder if there's a code to look for (like the Year One part numbers) which tells you if it's an OEM part? I know that certain items are probably only available from the dealer. If I have a choice of buying the exact same item (manufacturer, parts number, color, etc.) from two different places I'll buy from the cheaper place - unless there's a customer service issue to deal with. Some places have horrible customer service, poor response, or clueless employees so I avoid them even if they are cheaper (see my comments about frustration above).

hemihead - I wasn't trying to imply that only American car companies outsourced their parts. All manufacturers do but they also dictate the specifications. After all, the manufacturer of the car is the one who has to handle the warranty. What I was trying to get at is that the alternator in your Dodge is likely made at the same plant as the one in a Toyota. I have been reading up on transmissions lately and some of the Dodge trucks use a universal fit transmission bolt pattern because the transmissions are/were made by Aisin along side units for the Toyota Supra, Chevy Colorado, and Pontiac Solstice (and many other models). Yes, the quality of American cars has shown great improvement in recent years (as I stated earlier). I will stand behind that statement to anyone who says American cars are junk as well. I talk with all sorts of people - German car fans, Japanese car fans, American car fans and they all seem to have some misconceptions about things they are unfamiliar with. I like to do my own research before making a decision (assumption). I can't get through to any BMW owners - they a stubborn!

Ford has two transmission plants near where I live and I've toured both. I was actually surprised at some of what they make in house AND the quality control that is required. It makes me wonder how any after market company could compete.

Troy