I want the truth. Which had more stock HP, the 426 or 440?

[bull]

It depends on the setup of course but how about a comparison between a '70 440 six pack and a '70 426 Hemi, both in comperably equipped Chargers. And I'm not talking about the BS numbers given to the insurance companies, I want the honest, unbiased rear wheel HP ratings on both. Anyone got them?

[tan top]

  i am sure i have read this some place ,  no B/S  can't remember were .  this is purely speculation on my part  , but i am  guessing

          320 -330 at the wheels  for the HEMI   
       
          270-290  for the 440 six pack

[THE CHARGER PUNK]

a 440 6-pack would out run a hemi when those outter carbs kicked in

[hemi-hampton]

YOU CANT HANDLE THE TRUTH   Jack Nicholson.

[Dans 68]

A quick Google search turned up a web page that lists the top 50 "sixties" fastest muscle cars (as tested by various magazines)...lots of mopars in there. 

http://www.earlham.edu/~byersjo/top50.htm

Dan

[472 R/T SE]

Granted there's an amount of aerodynamics in the 500, this is the closest when comparing the 68-70 Chargers.  The '70 six pack didn't even rate.    So the comparison isn't quite accurate.

According to the above site:

10. 1969 CHARGER 500

ENGINE / 425 HORSEPOWER 426 HEMI 2x4 BARREL

AS TESTED / 4 SPEED TRANSMISSION AND 4.10 REAR

PERFORMANCE / 13.48 @ 109

DRAG TEST PUBLISHED / HOT ROD MAGAZINE 2/69





40. 1969 CHARGER R/T

ENGINE / 375 HORSEPOWER 440 4 BARREL

AS TESTED / AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION AND 3.55 REAR

DRAG TEST PUBLISHED / MOTOR TREND MAGAZINE 1/69

PERFORMANCE / 13.90 @ 101.4

[694spdRT]

Is there much truth to the saying that most Hemi's were so out of tune that they didn't run that well on the street and 440 six pack's were more reliable on a regular basis?

[bull]

Is there much truth to the saying that most Hemi's were so out of tune that they didn't run that well on the street and 440 six pack's were more reliable on a regular basis?

Not sure about that. But I've heard stories about how hard it is to synchronize the outer pair of 2bbls on the six pack cars from two guys I know who have owned them. One is a '70 Charger and the other a '70 Cuda. I'm sure that wasn't a problem straight from the factory but once you take them off to rebuild them and then put them back on it's a PITA to get them working right again.

[694spdRT]

Is there much truth to the saying that most Hemi's were so out of tune that they didn't run that well on the street and 440 six pack's were more reliable on a regular basis?

Not sure about that. But I've heard stories about how hard it is to synchronize the outer pair of 2bbls on the six pack cars from two guys I know who have owned them. One is a '70 Charger and the other a '70 Cuda. I'm sure that wasn't a problem straight from the factory but once you take them off to rebuild them and then put them back on it's a PITA to get them working right again.

That doesn't surprise me either. I can see issue's with any multi carb setup unless you really know how to tune and keep it there.

I bet that '68 383 2bbl 4 speed of your's might not have been that bad after all.   

[bull]

Is there much truth to the saying that most Hemi's were so out of tune that they didn't run that well on the street and 440 six pack's were more reliable on a regular basis?

Not sure about that. But I've heard stories about how hard it is to synchronize the outer pair of 2bbls on the six pack cars from two guys I know who have owned them. One is a '70 Charger and the other a '70 Cuda. I'm sure that wasn't a problem straight from the factory but once you take them off to rebuild them and then put them back on it's a PITA to get them working right again.

That doesn't surprise me either. I can see issue's with any multi carb setup unless you really know how to tune and keep it there.

I bet that '68 383 2bbl 4 speed of your's might not have been that bad after all.   

Lol! That's what I'm hoping. Not going to set any land speed records but I WILL have fun.

[C500]

No word on the 64 Ford Thunderbolt 427! 1/4 mile: 11.76 @ 122.7 would put it in first place. Only made 100 of these rockets though. Back to the topic..............

[Charger-Bodie]

Lol! That's what I'm hoping. Not going to set any land speed records but I WILL have fun.

hey bull are you going to keep youre charger a 2bbl or put on a 4bbl? just curios

[Troy]

I'd say the Hemi had more horsepower - I don't think that's been disputed. Which is faster is debatable. The Hemi heads don't make all that power until waaaaaaay up there so you have to be winding it out. Stoplight to stoplight I'd bet on the 440 but not on the open road or on a 1/4 mile track. Actually, I'd bet on the 440 4bbl in that scenario. I don't know if I put a lot of faith in magazine road tests but I guess there's not a lot of real data out there. I do remember my dad saying he raced against 383 Mopars a lot but doesn't recall many 440 or Hemi cars.

Bull, you know they never put a 6 pack in a real Charger...

Troy

[bull]

Lol! That's what I'm hoping. Not going to set any land speed records but I WILL have fun.

hey bull are you going to keep youre charger a 2bbl or put on a 4bbl? just curios

Ummm? Ahhhh? Ooooh? Hmmm? Still undecided. Ideally I'd like to build the engine so it would accept either intake and carb setup just in case. In case of what? I don't know. I guess in case I ever have to sell it. But I plan on leaving the original motor out of it and I recently bought a '69 383 block that's going to go .030 over and get decked so now I have to figure out if I'm going to mess with the original heads in order to use a bigger cam, or buy a set of aftermarket heads and leave the originals alone. It's a can of worms. I get a lot of comments and questions (some of quite them derogatory) about why I don't just drop a 440 in the car and be done with it. The short answer to that question is I really love the 383 engine. The 440s are great, Hemis are great too, but I really love the 383 and I always have. The one I had in my '70 had all the power I needed and it was completely bulletproof.

But I digress. The answer to your question is, I don't know yet, but I'm leaning toward leaving my original block on the floor and using all the bolt-on parts off it to build this other 383 with a mild cam, Speedpro pistons, rebuilt stock heads (with a few performance upgrades) and a 4bbl intake and 750 Holly carb. Is that enough indecision for you? It is for me.

[694spdRT]

Bull,

This is just my opinion and keep in mind I love "rare" stock cars.  Unless you are going to go to shows and actively "promote" the rare engine/tranny combo you have with a sign of some sort I don't see much point in putting the 2bbl on if you want to enjoy the car on the road. It will work fine and have power either way but a newer electric choke 4bbl will probably be the best idea. If you do go to local shows occasionally most people won't know a 2bbl from a 4bbl under the air cleaner anyway.

Bottom line: Your car is rare and I would actually prefer to own a 2bbl 4 speed like yours just for the conversation piece aspect over a 4bbl car but, adding a 4bbl won't really change what the car is especially when you have the original parts safely tucked away. 

[chgr500]

Is there much truth to the saying that most Hemi's were so out of tune that they didn't run that well on the street and 440 six pack's were more reliable on a regular basis?

I think there's alot of truth to this statement.....I worked with a fellow that is a retired driveability Chrysler technician who worked on these cars while they were still under warranty.....He was their main driveability guy and only he would work on the hemi and sixpack cars....He told me that most driveability concerns were with the hemi cars....Of course there were concerns with the 6 pak cars,  but most were hemi related cars.  If I remember correctly he said the hemi cars would have most times valve train and fuel concerns and the 6pack cars were usually fuel or ignition related concerns.   He doesn't work at all anymore but still drops into the dealership I work at occasionally....I'll quiz him some more on this topic next time I see him.

[bull]

Bull,

This is just my opinion and keep in mind I love "rare" stock cars.  Unless you are going to go to shows and actively "promote" the rare engine/tranny combo you have with a sign of some sort I don't see much point in putting the 2bbl on if you want to enjoy the car on the road. It will work fine and have power either way but a newer electric choke 4bbl will probably be the best idea. If you do go to local shows occasionally most people won't know a 2bbl from a 4bbl under the air cleaner anyway.

Bottom line: Your car is rare and I would actually prefer to own a 2bbl 4 speed like yours just for the conversation piece aspect over a 4bbl car but, adding a 4bbl won't really change what the car is especially when you have the original parts safely tucked away. 

You are correct sir. Yea, if I were that concerned with it I'd be painting it tt1 green, leaving the drum brakes on it and looking for hubcaps. Still, I might make some attempt at rebuilding the engine in such a way that it will still run good with a 2bbl or a 4bbl. I don't know if that is possible but I'm at least going to look into it.

[bull]

I'd say the Hemi had more horsepower - I don't think that's been disputed. Which is faster is debatable. The Hemi heads don't make all that power until waaaaaaay up there so you have to be winding it out. Stoplight to stoplight I'd bet on the 440 but not on the open road or on a 1/4 mile track. Actually, I'd bet on the 440 4bbl in that scenario. I don't know if I put a lot of faith in magazine road tests but I guess there's not a lot of real data out there. I do remember my dad saying he raced against 383 Mopars a lot but doesn't recall many 440 or Hemi cars.

Bull, you know they never put a 6 pack in a real Charger...

Troy

Ooooo. Thems fightin' words to some people. Not to me but some people.

[Ghoste]

Troy and others are right I think.  I don't think it is a question of which made more power it was always about which was the better street engine.  The Hemi was a race engine detuned to run on the street.  It was by engineering, almost out of tune when you bought it.  Let things slide just a little and it was not almost, it was assuredly, out of tune.  The 6 pack was a hopped up 440.  Even if you let the tune get off it's prime a little, you would still at the very least have a good running 440.  That may be an oversimplification but it isn't too far out.
Hey, they don't run a separate Super Stock class in NHRA for 6 packs.

[6pkrunner]

As delievered almost all the 440 six pack engines would outrun a showroom floor 426. There have been many comparison road tests from the time -

1969 6 bbl runner versus 1969 hemi runner

1969 440+4 GTX versus 1969 hemi runner

1970 6bbl runner versus 1970 hemi runner

and many many many road tests of all the hemi cars. The first 1970 hemi cuda ragtop - cranked off 14s until Al Kirschenbuam got at it.

As delievered the hemi wasn't set up ot supertuned. Almost every magazine either had Al Kirschenbaum or one of the noted drag racers (Bill Stiles, etc) come along after running real poor numbers and these guys would wave their magic wand over the hemi and then they could get the 13.05 and 13.10 and 13.3 times out of them. Without the supertune - high 13s or even 14s were the norm.
The 440 six pack was nowhere near as fussy and would run strong as delivered.

So are you talking the average guy picking up his car from the dealer version, or the "tuned" by pros version.

[Jon Smith]

No word on the 64 Ford Thunderbolt 427! 1/4 mile: 11.76 @ 122.7 would put it in first place. Only made 100 of these rockets though. Back to the topic..............

if they put that in they'd have to put hemi darts and barracudas in first place to mopar

440 six pack had peak torque and horsepower at lower revs, which is generally better for short bursts on the street and a quick getaway at the strip
hemi had more peak power at higher revs
I've seen an old road test of 2 70 roadrunners 440 six pack versus hemi...but I cant remember who won , I think the hemi just shaded it

[hotrod98]

Is there much truth to the saying that most Hemi's were so out of tune that they didn't run that well on the street and 440 six pack's were more reliable on a regular basis?

Not sure about that. But I've heard stories about how hard it is to synchronize the outer pair of 2bbls on the six pack cars from two guys I know who have owned them. One is a '70 Charger and the other a '70 Cuda. I'm sure that wasn't a problem straight from the factory but once you take them off to rebuild them and then put them back on it's a PITA to get them working right again.

Six pack carbs on Mopars are not actually synchronized the way that many older setups were. The outer carbs are vacuum operated. If they're not altered and are rebuilt using good Holley brand kits, they usually work great. At least mine do.

[hemihead]

Usually a 440 would stay with,if not edge out a stock Hemi in the 1/4 but like the ads said " A Hemi turns on when the others turn off"

[Brock Samson]

my understanding is the HEMI was built and enginered to run wide open at daytona in excess of 150 MPH, in fact my fav story from the book SUPERCARS! is how the engineers would go to lunch with the HEMI running wide open on the dyno back at the shop... or something to that effect.

the six-pack was designed to give an affordable alturnitive to us motor heads to battle 428 super cobra jets, 454 LS-6s and the buick stage III 455... cause Ma-Mopar knew what was required... 
that's why it was the high water mark of the muscle car.
imo..

[Bandit72]

No word on the 64 Ford Thunderbolt 427! 1/4 mile: 11.76 @ 122.7 would put it in first place. Only made 100 of these rockets though. Back to the topic..............

how about the 64 Ramcharger? there is an old man here in town that used to see these things run every weekend and he told me that them ramchargers would outrun the fords almost every time.....

[defiance]

Hm... that 3.55 rear seems like it might have been a handicap, though, compared to the 4.10 on the 440...  13.48 vs 13.9, so  not enough to make up the difference I'd guess, but enough that it might have closed the gap a little bit. 

Wow, a '69 L88 was only 13.56?  I guess they were made to really shine in a bit different environment than on a drag strip, though.   

19 mopars though, not bad.

[autodynamics]

  i would say build what you like, who cares if its a 2bbl or a 4bbl if your driving to enjoy it. Stick a 4bbl on it and be done with it. all these old farts that like the "original" cars are real annoying. whatever you choose enjoy it and drive it. and the end of the day do what YOU feel is best

[6pkrunner]

my understanding is the HEMI was built and enginered to run wide open at daytona in excess of 150 MPH, in fact my fav story from the book SUPERCARS! is how the engineers would go to lunch with the HEMI running wide open on the dyno back at the shop... or something to that effect.

the six-pack was designed to give an affordable alturnitive to us motor heads to battle 428 super cobra jets, 454 LS-6s and the buick stage III 455... cause Ma-Mopar knew what was required... 
that's why it was the high water mark of the muscle car.
imo..

-the hemi was a detuned race engine offered in street cars to sell the magic 500 units so they could race it. The 440 was a hopped up passenger car engine. The 1966 and 1967 hemis were detuned too much, and the 1968 up went with the stronger 284  degree cam. The large valves and huge castings that were slow to warm up were detrimental to normal street driving - but it was never designed to run on the street.
Thank Ford when they tried to get their 427 cammer used in Nascar. Bill France stepped in and said if you want to race it, you got to offer it for the street and sell a minimum of 500 units.

[Mefirst]

Thank Ford when they tried to get their 427 cammer used in Nascar. Bill France stepped in and said if you want to race it, you got to offer it for the street and sell a minimum of 500 units.

It would have been a battle of Titans, if NASCAR had allowed the Ford 427 "Cammer" battle it out with the double overhead cammed, 4 valves/cylinder (A925) Hemi back in 1965.. My money would have been on the Hemi...

http://www.thehemi.com/images/engines/A925_DOHC_Hemi_1_Lg.jpg

/Tom

[Ghoste]

Man, what a race that would have been!

[6pkrunner]

Here have a poster......

[69fuchs]

Here is a comparison:  I owned a 68 gtx.  Dead stock from air cleaner to H pipe, 4 speed, 3.54 gears.

It started as a stock 440 hp and it ran 14.5@95mph (4000 pounds)=267.66hp at the wheels

The very next year I installed a stock street hemi.  Dead stock from air cleaner to H pipe.  No other changes were made.  As a matter of fact I used the distributor out of the 440 in the hemi. (It was all I had at the time)

With the 426 hemi, first time out, it ran 13.25@106mph (4140 pounds)=384.83hp at the wheels

[69fuchs]

I had this one as well, it ran 13.40@103mph, but I never weighed it, she had headers and a mallory dual point/coil.
Sorry about the black engine bay Brian 

[Lord Warlock]

If you read all the magazines, all the tech articles and talked with folks that had them back in the 70s, for the street the 440 was king, keeping the hemi in tune for daily driving was a pain the ass.  Keeping the 440 six pack in tune was relatively easy.  The six pack was indeed vacuum controlled and was not that hard to keep in tune and could be converted to manual control if the vacuum secondaries started to act up.  I've known several friends that had them over the years.  However, almost everyone agreed that at the point that the 440 started to fall off the power curve in the top end, as in over 125mph, the hemi was pulling much stronger and kept pulling past 140 (if the gears allowed it to)

I do know for sure that there is a difference between the 383 magnum and 440 magnum in the same car, using same gears etc.  the 383 would roll off power at 115, the 440 would roll off close to 130. 

Weren't the later hemi's equipped with hydraulic lifters? I know for a fact that keeping the solid lifter ones were famous for losing a tune, and had to be constantly tuned to maintain peak performance.  Just like the solid lifter 413 cars were.  (my dad had both in the mid 60s)

The problem with comparing HP is that driveability is not a factor in a HP war.  A well tuned hemi would always have more HP than a 440 six pack would, but they would not perform the same on the street, nor the track.  They did make a six pack manifold that fit the 383, but i doubt the 383 could use the gas that the six pack would provide.  Too much gas too soon and the big old 440 falls on its face.  Same with the 383.  But at the right time...the 440 would take as much as you could pour down its gullet. 

[69fuchs]

How about max wedge stuff?   

Walt Reed (who was a well known racer around here and had "the scavenger" hemicuda that was featured in the direct connection books of the 1970's)

He started with a 62 max wedge dodge polara, racing it in b/mp.  He won a lot with that car, but it only ran mid 12's in the quarter.  He traded the max wedge engine for a 426 hemi with a spun rod bearing.  After he fixed the 426 hemi, he put it in a 67 belvedere.  First time out, it ran 11.50's.  He never looked back.


check out this article
http://www.allpar.com/history/memories/hemi-satellite.html

[RECHRGD]

It seems funny that I never came up against a HEMI car 'back in the day'.  I did have alot of fun harassing the bowtie and blue oval boys with my new '68 R/T 440 in So. California.  Hell, I don't even remember seeing a HEMI car.  I did have a friend that had a very quick El Camino that ran around 13 seconds flat and I remember him saying that a HEMI kicked his ass one night on the Harbor freeway.  BTW my 440 ran low 14's with headers and 3.23 gears on polyglass tires.   Bob

[Ghoste]

I did once, although back in the in this case would mean around 1980 or 81.  It was a 70 Challenger and it was one of the harder street spankings I have ever had.  To this day I don't know who owned the car or what he had done to it but he handed me my ass right from the moment the guy waved us off.  I was already a Mopar guy by then and I knew about Hemis but that was the first time I had seen one run and it was also the moment that made the "legend" real.  That one was tuned.