Body work...any "how to" websites?

[Harlow]

Hey, I'm looking around for some web sites that have some good information on how to do body work.
I'm a young gun and I've never done any body work before, I'm just trying to gain some knowledge of
how to do this before I get ready for the body work stage. I'm on a limited budget so I'm pretty sure
I'm going to need to do it myself to save some money. If you guys have any tips or techniques that you
could share that would be awesome. I'll post some pictures of the damaged areas tomorrow. The dents aren't
crinkled so I'm hoping I could fix these without metal replacement? Any info would be great.

- Scott

[DC_1]

some interesting info here for newbies

http://www.a2zautoforums.com/forumdisplay.php?s=fa13781fd41c7d118704a28f1eb730ce&f=48

[mikepmcs]

i think you'll get the best information right here.  There are some awesome body guys on this site and i know they will be happy to help.
can't wait to see the pics.
v/r
Mike

[bill440rt]

Harlow,
Not trying to discourage you in any way, but doing it yourself with no previous knowledge or experience may end up COSTING you money. There are thousands of dollars worth of special tools you need to do it properly. The cost of paint & materials alone is through the roof these days. And, you need a proper area in which to work in. Spraying a car in your house garage can be dangerous not only for your health, but you also don't want to burn your house down.

If you're on a limited budget, you may skimp somewhere. This, along with no previous knowledge or experience, may lead to a paint job that doesn't hold up well. Then where are you? You'll need to do it all over AGAIN.
It takes years of experience to learn proper bodywork & painting techniques. I personally have been doing it, whether professionally or as a hobbyist, for about 20 years. I'm still learning things.

Do yourself a favor, & just get a couple of estimates from local reputable shops who are willing to do restoration work. Take a few auto body night courses at your local Vo-Tech community college. When I was younger, a shop let me work there for a summer-time job while they did a '71 Road Runner for me. I was able to work on my car a little bit, and other customer's cars, and learn a little bit about the trade before going to Vo-Tech school where I then took auto body courses.

Good Luck!

[Harlow]

I know I wont be able to do the paint but I was hoping I could do the dents, although I have no idea even where to start, its an AZ car and it literally has no rust to be repaired. All the dents except one are not creased, and it seems to me that it could be popped back out, although I'm not sure. I'll have pictures today after school around 3:30. Heres some I took the day I bought the car:

This one seems to me to the be worst because it is slightly creased:

[Doc74]

I know I wont be able to do the paint but I was hoping I could do the dents, although I have no idea even where to start, its an AZ car and it literally has no rust to be repaired. All the dents except one are not creased, and it seems to me that it could be popped back out, although I'm not sure. I'll have pictures today after school around 3:30.

Paint is easy, dents are hard. Don't get fooled by a glossy paint job, anyone can learn how to spray paint quite easily, removing dents is an entirely different matter.

I've been doing bodywork professionally for over 15 years and I can tell you that when you're ready for paint, the real work is done. Other bodyworkers here will acknowledge that. It's the sheetmetal and prep that will test your skills.

Like Bill said, get some courses. Learn how to work sheetmetal before anything else. When you have that down, or at least enough to remove a dent and shrink and stretch panels you can move on to prep work, sanding, primers, fillers. The latter will be academic if you're good at sheetmetal btw 

Find a workshop or a good bodyman who's willing to show you how to work metals. That should be priority, all the rest will follow and should take a back seat.

Btw, no dents pop out 100%, there's always a trace left, no matter how small. Up to you if you want to cover it in filler or smooth the metal out until it's perfect. It shouldn't be a hard choice.

Good luck and more importantly...have fun.

[Todd Wilson]

http://www.lplbodyworks.com/

[Lord Warlock]

I'll agree with bill, getting dents out and prepping the surface is 80 percent of a good paint job.  Painting, while not for everyone, is something you can pick up fairly easy with practice and decent equipment, but you have to be willing to invest in good tools.  You do not want to just try and pop out a dent then skim over with bondo/filler to prep a surface.  There is alot more involved than that.  While I'll attempt to fix small dimples, dings and minor dents, knowing your limitations and where it is smarter to take it to a professional is the wisest choice.  Also, don't just pick the cheapest body shop to do the work, many shops have pictures of works in progress so you can see that they fix the problem instead of covering it up.  A job done incorrectly will come back to haunt you later after the paint is on the car.  I've easily invested more than 2000.00 in just painting tools, and still know that there is only so much I can do myself.  There is alot more to getting a surface back straight than popping the dent out from behind, you don't want the surface to be bent out the wrong way, you want the surface worked smoothly into position which takes experience and practice to do.  (as well as the proper tools)

Painting in an attached garage is not advisable, the fumes do get into the house even with good ventilation and air movement,  and then there is no way to bake dry the paint, although this isn't really an issue since the paint usually dries within a couple hours and cures quickly in the warm temps I live in. 

If you are serious about learning how to do body work, its worth the time to learn how to do it right by taking classes.  Jumping in with a hammer and dolly, or worse yet a hammer and a chunk of wood is not a good idea.  Anyone can slap on bondo and sand it smooth, but most folks can tell when it was done by an amateur, and it won't help the resale value when people see something covered up that should have been done right to start with.  Your car's dent doesn't appear that bad, a body shop can straighten the dents for you without charging an arm and a leg. 

In my case all I have to deal with are small imperfections and minor dents, but I've put in hundreds of hours working on the body prior to painting it, and while i am sure a body shop could do it in a couple days at most, its important to me to do it myself, and learn what i need to in order to get it done right, plus buy whatever tools i need in the process.  The knowledge of how to fix dents will pay off over the years, so it is worth your time to learn how to do it while still young. 

[bill440rt]

Harlow,
That dent in your 1/4 panel is not just gonna "pop" out. You'll need special pulling equipment to get that out properly. Look at the lower edge as it goes toward the rear of the car. See how it angles inward?
Behind that 1/4 panel, it's welded to the trunk floor extension. These cars are unibodies, meaning one structural part is welded to another. The body is one piece. Not only is the 1/4 panel pushed inward, so is the trunk floor extension. It also looks like it is pushed upward a little bit.
That dent needs to be worked in a method knows as "first in, last out." This means the first area of damage or impact is the LAST damage to work out. That 1/4 panel needs to be worked starting at the front edge by the rear tire, & then work back to the rear bumper. Pulling equipment WILL be needed. You're not gonna do that with a hammer & a dolly in your driveway.

Again, I'm NOT trying to discourage you. But that dent is not for the amatuer. Try taking some courses at your local Vo-Tech college, or at least do some research on them. They REALLY help alot, & are great for learning the basics.

Best of Luck, and yes, HAVE FUN!!

[Harlow]

Yeah, I knew that dent on the passenger side wouldn't be able to be popped.


heres the one that I thought I might be able to do myself, hopefully its not too dark it was taken the day
I bought the car, and I can take more once my camera's battery charges.



I have one more area I need to show you guys but my camera is out of batteries and its charging.
What do you guys think about the picture I just showed you?

[Lord Warlock]

The last one is beyond simple learn as you go as well, you could pull the fender down close to where it belongs and then learn a little working on the area behind the bumper itself, but you have a problem with a curved panel  piece where the wheelwell lip curves downward.  I'm sure you could probably get it close, but both of the dents pictured so far would be better served by a shop that has plenty of experience doing it. 

Places to start work include quarter sized dings, deep scratches on flat panels etc.  learning on a curved panel is going to be frustrating. 

[Harlow]

Heres the last area, its the drivers side quarter, hopefully you can see the dents, its got poor lighting if you guys need better pictures let me know I'll set up some better light.

[bill440rt]

Harlow,
Do yourself a tremendous favor & leave those dents to a pro. That kind damage is NOT for the beginner, believe me. The RF fender & RT 1/4 panel need some serious pulling/straightening. That LT 1/4 will need someone skilled with a hammer & dolly, and maybe a stud gun. It's damaged nearly the whole length of the panel from what I can see. The metal is likely stretched in ALL these areas, & may need some shrinking techniques involved.

[Lord Warlock]

The 3rd one looks do-able.  It should pop out from behind without too much effort, getting the rest of it straight should be good practice.  Personally though, I'd probably opt to get all of them done professionally.  Although the last pic is something I would probably attempt to do, it really is too much for a beginner who has never tried it before.  I popped my cherry on a car that had 3800 worth of hail damage to it, none of the dents were the size of yours, and even after you pop the rear quarter out, the surface is rippled behind the big dent, not something you want to cover up, it really needs work by someone that can flatten the high spots and work out the low spots. 

[hemi-hampton]

Harlow, Those first 2 dents were to nasty for a Ameture. With that last dent on 1/4 you could try toilet plunger to somewhat pop that out. But will need much more work after that better left for a experianced bodyman. I say this only because a toilet plunger requires no big $$ into tools & even you could do it. If your short of funds take it to Maaco. Maaco far from Quality but cheap. LEON.

[Harlow]

Does anyone have a rough estimate of what this would cost me? I know its probably hard to tell but just try to give me ballpark estimate.
I bought a battery,plugs, and wires today so tomorrow after school I'm going to try and start it up. Once I get it running I'm going to go
get some estimates at some body shops, but for now was a ballpark estimate for this damage?

[hemi-hampton]

Are you talking Paint Also? Who ever Bumps it will probably want to Paint it also. Maaco might do it for $500 while a high priced quality resto shop will charge a few thousand.  LEON.

[Harlow]

Are you talking Paint Also? Who ever Bumps it will probably want to Paint it also. Maaco might do it for $500 while a high priced quality resto shop will charge a few thousand.  LEON.

Sure lets add paint also, I don't intend on making this car a show car so I just want a paint job that will look decent and last pretty long. I hear the maaco paint jobs look good but they use cheap paint so the paint doesn't last long. Do you guys think that you could break the pricing down for me, for example, body work= $ to $, paint= $ = $

[hemi-hampton]

Thats practically impossible in my opinion since every body shop will give you a different estimate amount. Best you take your car to about 10 different shops & pick a winner? LEON.

[Harlow]

Thats what I'm planning on doing once its drivable. Are there any paint colors that are cheaper than others? I've heard red is the most expensive, is this true?

[hemi-hampton]

Yes, Red does seem to be most exspensive. From what I've heard the Item needed to obtain the red tint is hard to come by. A special tree bark is used or something like that? LEON.

[Lord Warlock]

Maaco paints aren't that bad, they last just as long as other paints do, the problem with maaco is that they don't do alot of the prep work involved such as disassembly, removing trim, proper masking that real shops do.  Problem is that while maaco is decent spraying paint on cheap, can't say the same for their bodywork.  If I were you, i wouldn't shoot for a show car paint job, the car simply isn't worth the investment overall, unless you see this as your lifelong keeper car (its not a charger so i'd have doubts) Make friends with a body guy, and trade out work for something he wants, or shop around.  You have a lot of work to be done.  LEON has more experience than I do though, listen to him. 

You are correct that some paints are more expensive than others, just as many basecoat/clearcoat combos are more expensive than single stage acrylic enamels.  I wouldn't know about red though, never priced reds, some blues are more than other colors though. 

[Harlow]

Maaco paints aren't that bad, they last just as long as other paints do, the problem with maaco is that they don't do alot of the prep work involved such as disassembly, removing trim, proper masking that real shops do.  Problem is that while maaco is decent spraying paint on cheap, can't say the same for their bodywork.  If I were you, i wouldn't shoot for a show car paint job, the car simply isn't worth the investment overall, unless you see this as your lifelong keeper car (its not a charger so i'd have doubts) Make friends with a body guy, and trade out work for something he wants, or shop around.  You have a lot of work to be done.  LEON has more experience than I do though, listen to him. 

You are correct that some paints are more expensive than others, just as many basecoat/clearcoat combos are more expensive than single stage acrylic enamels.  I wouldn't know about red though, never priced reds, some blues are more than other colors though. 

If I found a body man that was willing to do a good job on JUST the body work not paint the car then I could get a maaco paint job. And I could do the disassembly myself so they weren't masking around chrome and other things like that. What do you guys think of that? I have literally no experience in getting a car painted so thanks to all you guys for your advice. I would love to trade some my time helping out/cleaning a shop in exchange to get a discount or free paint job and or body work.

[Doc74]

Harlow

Some colors are more expensive than others because every color is a mix of many paints. Some colors are more expensive to make because of 'ingredients' and some are more expensive only because they don't cover so well that you need an extra coat or two.For instance a single stage black may cover in two coats while the same brand white might need three, so you pay more.

Also you can mix up a Ford silver with lets say 5 colors and the same looking silver from Dodge will need 9 colors or visa versa. They're all formula's, no color is straight out of the tin.

A base/clear can run up higher than a single stage, especially when it's a thee stage or pearl or mica but it's not a given.

Waterbased base/clear is generally more expensive but again not a given. In general the difference is not all that much as long as you don't start with diamond based chameleon which will run about a grand or more for a quart, that's without the prime base and clear btw.
Candies and the likes also run high, but worth it in my book.

If you can find someone to do the prep for you than you might save a bundle and have a better prep but before you do so you best go talk with some shop owners. Not all bodyshops will accept a car that has been prepped by someone else, I generally don't.

The prep is the most important and if not done right it could mean the nice paintjob could peel off or crack after a while, ruining the rep of the painter, altough he did nothing wrong. I've seen it before.

Go to a Maaco and ask them if they'd paint your prepped car to be sure. Any regular metallic or single stage acrylic will run about the same cost so by all means, do get the one you want most. Nothing worse than looking at your freshly painted car and be not totally happy because you saved 200 bucks and are now stuck with something you don't really love.

BTW if you want a show finish...ask the painter to apply an extra coat, single stage or clear, whichever way you go. This way he can paint low risk and not try to leave a perfect finish and you can take it home and sand it smooth and polish it or have it polished.
I have seen awful paintjobs that can be turned into the best because there's a thick enough coat on it.

In collision I always paint it as smooth as possible since there's no cut and buff afterwards, too costly for a collision job. But hey if you can cut it yourself, it's only your time to invest. The polishing is hard labor but not terribly costly.

Hope this helps

[BlueSS454]

Check out www.autobody101.com.  Lots of good info over there.

[mikepmcs]

right click..save
always willing to hear what the pros say.

One thing for sure is... bodywork to me is like art.  You have to be a master at your craft and love what you are doing.  I have an opp to work at my buddies body shop when i retire from the navy in about 2 months and if i can swing it financially, i'm going to do it because i've always wanted to learn this. I think if you are good with your hands and have a knack for this sort of stuff, it just comes easier.  I do a lot of woodwork in my spare time and i'm pretty sure i can handle body work and the tedious task of shaping a panel to perfection, but, only time will tell i guess.

thanks for that link, the other body info site i had on my fav's is no longer there.

v/r
Mike

[Doc74]

right click..save
always willing to hear what the pros say.

One thing for sure is... bodywork to me is like art.  You have to be a master at your craft and love what you are doing.  I have an opp to work at my buddies body shop when i retire from the navy in about 2 months and if i can swing it financially, i'm going to do it because i've always wanted to learn this. I think if you are good with your hands and have a knack for this sort of stuff, it just comes easier.  I do a lot of woodwork in my spare time and i'm pretty sure i can handle body work and the tedious task of shaping a panel to perfection, but, only time will tell i guess.

thanks for that link, the other body info site i had on my fav's is no longer there.

v/r
Mike

Nothing tedious about it, if you love it then you love it. You may get frustrated if it's not going right or when you don't have the necessary tools like with any job but I can tell you that making a 60's jaguar fender or a gas tank for a bike or whatever out of straight of the shelf sheet metal is anything but tedious.
If you can handle woodwork and you don't have two left hands then yes, it will come easier. Bodywork is a wonderful job, I for one take pride in restoring cars without fillers, nobody may see it but I know and nothing can take that feeling away. I get bored sometimes doing prep work since it's always the same and painting is usually very boring until you have a custom paintjob to do or an airbrush or something but those are rare. Metal work however will never get boring to me.

So by all means, get yourself some good tools and a nice workshop and start having fun.

Dammit, now I want to do some woodwork 

[mikepmcs]

Here is some of my junk... A little off subject but i'm in for some constructive.  Let me have it.  Oh yeah I make jewelry too.  Just hobbies of mine.


v/r
Mike

[mikepmcs]

one more, sorry for the hijack.

[RogerDodger]

Nice work Mike. What kind of dovetail would you call that? Looks like you used a bisquit joiner somehow. I used to do some work like that. Now my Charger has taken over the garage. Only things I have left are a band saw and a joiner. I use them as shelves.

[mikepmcs]

If you are talking about the corners on the jewelry box(the ones with with the light colored wood at an angle), then that is just some birdseye maple pieces of wood that i put in there to strengthen the corners.  It was 45'd together and the i tilted the box at multiple angles and ran it through my table saw to make the kerf, then i glued those pieces in there, trimmed and sanded them.  So you could say it's kind of a biscuit, but on the outside of the box. LOL

I actually wish , i had my garage back on the woodshop side cause it takes up alot of room with all those tools in there.  I've often thought of just selling all my wood tools and having a place to store or work on another car, but i know i would regret it.

Thanks for the nice comment,
once again sorry for the hijack.

v/r
Mike

[jordyjim]

right click..save
always willing to hear what the pros say.

One thing for sure is... bodywork to me is like art.  You have to be a master at your craft and love what you are doing.  I have an opp to work at my buddies body shop when i retire from the navy in about 2 months and if i can swing it financially, i'm going to do it because i've always wanted to learn this. I think if you are good with your hands and have a knack for this sort of stuff, it just comes easier.  I do a lot of woodwork in my spare time and i'm pretty sure i can handle body work and the tedious task of shaping a panel to perfection, but, only time will tell i guess.

thanks for that link, the other body info site i had on my fav's is no longer there.mike im a painter but i do a bit of bodywork too,are you a patient man? cut one corner in this game and your back to sqr one, its all eye to hand coordination you never think oh that will do and paint it, cos it will just haunt you every time you look at, like you say you have to love what you do you have to think perfection at all times, go for the job i dont think you will regret and you will get paid for having a good time..jim

v/r
Mike

[mikepmcs]

Jim,
Thanks for the vote of confidence.  I have patience when it comes to this sort of tasking.  In woodwork, i've destroyed many projects just because I didn't like one little thing on it, so in the scrap pile it goes.  I very much like hobbies where it is just whatever medium i'm working and me with no outside influence or interference.  I believe autobody falls into this category as well.  I understand the importance of the get it right the first time deal in autobody repair.  I've seen the results when it isn't done right.  My car could use a lot of work and i intend to do that someday(i didn't do the body and paint) But i'm just having fun with it right now and it is what it is.   

Harlow, sorry we got off subject a little and i apologize for hijacking this thread on you brother.  I do think however if you take your time, learn to do it right from an instructor who knows what to do, you can do just fine.  I really think that most people are capable of almost anything if they love it and they really want to do it right, i truly believe that.  For instance, i've been researching alot of motor knowledge on this site and really have been learning from the pros here, unfortunately i will be going it alone when it comes to sprucing up my motor(installing a new cam and learning to degree and the ins and outs of that particular part of the motor) But I love it and I love cars and i'm pretty mechanically savy once it comes to doing it so I know with plenty of research and patience to do it right, I will accomplish it with little or no problem.  Of course I have this site and the many wonderful people on here that assist guys like you and me every day in our quest.  I guess what i'm saying is go ahead and do the work and get some instruction, and do some research.  Fall in love with it and you will produce awesome results.
Just my .02

Good Luck to you.

v/r
Mike

[Harlow]

Jim,
Thanks for the vote of confidence.  I have patience when it comes to this sort of tasking.  In woodwork, i've destroyed many projects just because I didn't like one little thing on it, so in the scrap pile it goes.  I very much like hobbies where it is just whatever medium i'm working and me with no outside influence or interference.  I believe autobody falls into this category as well.  I understand the importance of the get it right the first time deal in autobody repair.  I've seen the results when it isn't done right.  My car could use a lot of work and i intend to do that someday(i didn't do the body and paint) But i'm just having fun with it right now and it is what it is.   

Harlow, sorry we got off subject a little and i apologize for hijacking this thread on you brother.  I do think however if you take your time, learn to do it right from an instructor who knows what to do, you can do just fine.  I really think that most people are capable of almost anything if they love it and they really want to do it right, i truly believe that.  For instance, i've been researching alot of motor knowledge on this site and really have been learning from the pros here, unfortunately i will be going it alone when it comes to sprucing up my motor(installing a new cam and learning to degree and the ins and outs of that particular part of the motor) But I love it and I love cars and i'm pretty mechanically savy once it comes to doing it so I know with plenty of research and patience to do it right, I will accomplish it with little or no problem.  Of course I have this site and the many wonderful people on here that assist guys like you and me every day in our quest.  I guess what i'm saying is go ahead and do the work and get some instruction, and do some research.  Fall in love with it and you will produce awesome results.
Just my .02

Good Luck to you.

v/r
Mike

No problem, nice woodwork by the way. I would like to learn how to do bodywork because I think it will save me a lot of money in the long run. Especially because this is not going to be the last mopar I ever buy (I hope not). I'm pretty good at the mechanical stuff, but still learning. It would be awesome to be able to do all the things needed to restore a care myself then I'm not paying someone for labor, but we'll see. When I get it running (hoping to start 'er up tomorrow) I'll go by some shops and see what they say.