What do you make out of this nonsense....? 304 Mile Daytona. 675k FIRM! lol

[Charger Aficionado]

What in the HAPPY HORSE_TRASH is going-on here?  Just an outright fraud or rare '70 Daytona...? 

**Inactive Link Removed**

Has Daytona flush-mounted window...

WRONG color ('70 color)... 

Has '70 style VIN sticker w/ '69 VIN number:  XX29L9B 400566   9/69  (but in WRONG font isn't it?)...  (wouldn't they think buyer would cross-check that sticker w/ Vin on dash)  I don't get it.

'70 Steering wheel...

Look at the decklid hinge on right (looks like hinge on 500 SE):

**Inactive Link Removed**

[mikepmcs]

Jude,
I don't know about all that other stuff, but I saw that car on ebay about 2 years ago with the same pictures  as this ad.  I want to remember saying the car said it was repainted in the original description.  I remember thinking 304 miles and repainted???  I'm sure it's just another scam, but i don't know anything except what i learn here about what to look for on daytona's, 500's, etc.....

v/r
Mike

[hemigeno]

It's a 100% legit car, although I'll refrain from making editorial comments about the asking price...  Elmer D.'s car, he's had it since new.

Here is a long thread about this same car:

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,9973.0.html

[mikepmcs]

I stand corrected and retract my "it's a scam comment."   Please forgive my ignorance
I was right in remembering the paint thing though

v/r
Mike

[Aero426]

The small town Wisconsin Dodge dealer painted the car Limelight shortly after it arrived on the lot.  They felt it had to be painted a bright color to sell it. 

The dealer pushed the car to the back of the lot in the winter of 1969-70.   It wasn't sold until the spring of 1970. 

It's had the same owner since then.   About 100 of the miles on it were put on driving it from the dealership to the owners home.    It's had one additional Limelight repaint. 

[Charger Aficionado]

Crazy story.  What is the deal with the Sticker then?

I had a feeling it had some Legit Daytona qualities, (why I posted).   I couldn't see rear window trim from TINY pics... 

[THE CHARGER PUNK]

looks like an original x9 daytona that was color changed when relatively new

[Charger_Fan]

looks like an original x9 daytona that was color changed when relatively new

How did you ever come to that conclusion?

[hemigeno]

Crazy story.  What is the deal with the Sticker then?

I had a feeling it had some Legit Daytona qualities, (why I posted).   I couldn't see rear window trim from TINY pics... 

Daytonas did have the VIN sticker - at least a good number of them did.  There still isn't a consensus of opinion about who put the sticker on the door, but my best guess is that Creative Industries put it on there.  The font is always different on a Daytona sticker (almost certainly a special run just for those cars) than what you see on a 1970 model year version, which is probably what's throwing you for a loop.

I might be missing something, but I thought that the steering wheel on the car was correct for '69?  That's what's on my car, right down to the moulding lines on the horn pad.

[Charger Aficionado]

I might be missing something, but I thought that the steering wheel on the car was correct for '69?  That's what's on my car, right down to the moulding lines on the horn pad.

Well for what it's worth:  Of all the cars I've had that horn pad was 90% of the time was in '70's.  It's certainly a late '69 deal if it WAS on '69s...  I didn't see them un-molested, so I wouldn't know...

I do see dark paint under Sublime, but it could be F8 as far as anyone could tell... 

This car (if low-mile legit), is an AWESOME piece of history just as it sits.  Awesome color!

[hemi68charger]

Jude...

The steering wheel is a '69.. It's just like Dana's.......

Troy

[69_500]

Elmers car is definately a time capsule. Yeah its been repainted, but its legit, and gorgeous. I don't care for the color myself, but its a very very very low mileage car. And its definately not one that has had the miles rolled back.

[nascarxx29]

Its also a desirable combo X9 black 4 speed

[69_500]

thats true, but would you paint it back to X9 or leave it the way it has been since practically new?

[Ghoste]

I think after this much time and with that mileage and the circumstances regarding the repaint, you'd have to consider Limelight as the real color now.  Just one mans little opinion though.

[hemi68charger]

thats true, but would you paint it back to X9 or leave it the way it has been since practically new?

If I was asked, it would definitely be painted black........... again.......

[Aero426]

If it needed paint, going back to black makes sense.   The paint that's on it was done in the late 70's. and still looks very nice in person.  I saw the car two years ago and wouldn't touch it myself.  It's part of the cars story and makes it unusual.   

[69_500]

Personally I'm like Troy though I'd take it to black, due to personally I think that a Black Daytona is the best looking one's. But with this car its been this color since the day it was purchased, so I'd leave it that color until it needed paint then go back to black.

[tan top]

difficult  choice   ,  i think if it was still in its first sublime paint job , applied by the selling dealer , then i think leave it as it is . but it had  second one later on , so it is not the original dealer applied green , ( i think i know what i am trying to say, still half a sleep though ) so then i would put it back to  X9 . although 304 mile time capsule it has had a none factory paint job .    . sorry guys  i am i know were i am trying to go with this  , but written down it seems confusing   . 
 
     

[Aero426]

difficult  choice   ,  i think if it was still in its first sublime paint job , applied by the selling dealer , then i think leave it as it is . but it had  second one later on , so it is not the original dealer applied green , ( i think i know what i am trying to so , still half a sleep though ) so then i would put it back to  X9 . although 304 mile time capsule it has had a none factory paint job .    . sorry guys  i am i know were i am trying to go with this  , but written down it seems confusing   . 
 
     

The original sublime paint job was honestly, a quickie job.     In fact, what the dealer did for the D-A-Y-T-O-N-A  stripe lettering was go down to the hardware store and get adhesive mailbox letters with a white background.   They didn't bother to order a rear stripe, and I think the nose gasket was painted.   So I can see why he wanted it painted again pretty early on.  The paint that is on the car is now closing in on THIRTY years old and looks good. 

[hotrod98]

If I had the car it would definitely go back black. Then that would part of my history with the car. After all, we don't really own any of these cars. We're all just temporary caretakers.

[tan top]

difficult  choice   ,  i think if it was still in its first sublime paint job , applied by the selling dealer , then i think leave it as it is . but it had  second one later on , so it is not the original dealer applied green , ( i think i know what i am trying to so , still half a sleep though ) so then i would put it back to  X9 . although 304 mile time capsule it has had a none factory paint job .    . sorry guys  i am i know were i am trying to go with this  , but written down it seems confusing   . 
 
     

The original sublime paint job was honestly, a quickie job.     In fact, what the dealer did for the D-A-Y-T-O-N-A  stripe lettering was go down to the hardware store and get adhesive mailbox letters with a white background.   They didn't bother to order a rear stripe, and I think the nose gasket was painted.   So I can see why he wanted it painted again pretty early on.  The paint that is on the car is now closing in on THIRTY years old and looks good. 

                     i did not realise it  was  THAT   sort of  repaint .  thinking  about it some more ... yep  may be it should be kept  sublime .   .  i can't remember but was there any written info from the dealer. i know the car is legit , not doubting thing , just  curious / intrested  .  not a wing car but i read about  a smiler debate over a A4 69 R/T SE years back  that was in dealer applied  sublime.

[Ghoste]

Was that Tim Winnie's RT/SE?

[Aero426]

Here is some interesting reading and photos regarding the 304 mile Daytona on the Daytona Superbird Auto Club website.  I have also added a couple of new articles on the "What's New" page. 

http://www.superbirdclub.com/elmer.html

[mikepmcs]

cool story for sure.  I know if i had the cash i would own it tomorrow....and i would keep it green.
it wouldn't have 304 miles on it anymore though cause i'd drive the heck out of it. wait, maybe i shouldn't own it, it probably belongs at the Smithsonian.
v/r
Mike

[69_500]

Whoever buys it will have one heck of a Daytona. Personally I would drive it, as I can't stand the temptation of having a wing car and not putting miles on it. It would have 4,000 miles before the summer would be over. I'd drive the wheels off of the car. Which is why I wouldn't want that one. I want a Daytona but I would honestly prefer a non numbers car so that I can drive it and enjoy the heck out of it.

[PocketThunder]

Here is some interesting reading and photos regarding the 304 mile Daytona on the Daytona Superbird Auto Club website.  I have also added a couple of new articles on the "What's New" page. 

http://www.superbirdclub.com/elmer.html

that photo is taken out side elmers house.  Elmer has a model A in his living room which is the room with the window behind the wing on the daytona.     I was there in 1994.  He has a couple barns full of old cars and old toys and a shed full of muscle cars.  He has or used to have open houses on weekends for all to come and look around for $2 or something.
I dont remember seeing this Daytona when i was there back then.  I do remember seeing his low mileage Lime Green superbird though.  he had that one on display in one of the sheds..Maybe i'll take a nice sunday drive with my Charger down the mississippi river road and go see him again this summer.

Paul
in St. Paul

[Charger-Bodie]

i also live somewhat close to elmer and the story that i got about the color is that he actually had his super bird first and the daytona was a leftover ect but that he had it painted lime light to match his bird ...... at any rate id paint it black no doubt about it and oh yes those mile  are very likely real ive only seen the car once it was at a larger indoor carshow about 15 years ago.....and by the way the inside of the trunk is still black

[Aero426]

i also live somewhat close to elmer and the story that i got about the color is that he actually had his super bird first and the daytona was a leftover ect but that he had it painted lime light to match his bird ...... at any rate id paint it black no doubt about it and oh yes those mile  are very likely real ive only seen the car once it was at a larger indoor carshow about 15 years ago.....and by the way the inside of the trunk is still black

I believe he did have the Superbird first, and that's the way I understood the story until Gary Moe came forward.  Gary has owned a Daytona for 30 years, and credited his interest developed after seeing Elmer's car on the dealers lot in his hometown.

[tan top]

 

Was that Tim Winnie's RT/SE?

     

                   yep    thats  the guy (Ghoste)    the car was sold new in Arizona               
           
   

Here is some interesting reading and photos regarding the 304 mile Daytona on the Daytona Superbird Auto Club website. I have also added a couple of new articles on the "What's New" page.

http://www.superbirdclub.com/elmer.html

       

                       thanks for the link  (Doug) ,  intresting stuff .  them  mail box letters .  intresting that the painter said he never painted the wing .. 

[69_500]

I haven't heard the name Gary Moe before.

Side note here but Doug, how many origional Daytona owners still have their cars? I can only think of 3 off the top of my head. 1 in Missouri, Elmer, and one HEMI owner. Are there more? I know of more Superbird origional owners than that. Just not so many origional owners of Daytona's.

[Aero426]

Gary has been in DSAC since 1977.   He has a nice R4 Daytona with a white stripe.  That car he's had for 30 years.   He sold his Hemi Challenger a few years back to buy a Superbird.   He hasn't been to a lot of meets, but I expect there's a good chance we will see him and his wife Cindy at Milwaukee in August.   It's not too far of a drive for them to make it. 

[Ghoste]

Interesting observation Danny.  In spite of the much larger volume of Superbirds available of course, I wonder how much of it is a timing thing?  Didn't the Daytona's all sell fairly quickly?  With all the stories I've heard of Superbirds sitting around on lots for years, I wonder if it was just generally a car where more of the buyers were buying it because they truly loved the car and it's styling.  As opposed to the Dodge where maybe (MAYBE) a lot of buyers were getting one because it was an impulse thing based on the 1969 performance fever swan song thing?  Only a half baked theory.
Made more interesting by the fact that the stylists were granted access to the Plymouth but not the Dodge?

[PocketThunder]

I haven't heard the name Gary Moe before.

Side note here but Doug, how many origional Daytona owners still have their cars? I can only think of 3 off the top of my head. 1 in Missouri, Elmer, and one HEMI owner. Are there more? I know of more Superbird origional owners than that. Just not so many origional owners of Daytona's.

This summer i am going to try and go see my friends Uncle who i'm told is and original Hemi Daytona and Lime Green Superbird owner in Wisconsin about an hours drive from me.  I'll report back when i get the info

[Aero426]

Interesting observation Danny.  In spite of the much larger volume of Superbirds available of course, I wonder how much of it is a timing thing?  Didn't the Daytona's all sell fairly quickly?  With all the stories I've heard of Superbirds sitting around on lots for years, I wonder if it was just generally a car where more of the buyers were buying it because they truly loved the car and it's styling.  As opposed to the Dodge where maybe (MAYBE) a lot of buyers were getting one because it was an impulse thing based on the 1969 performance fever swan song thing?  Only a half baked theory.
Made more interesting by the fact that the stylists were granted access to the Plymouth but not the Dodge?

A couple of points to make here...

In round numbers, if you have 2500 wing cars to sell,  the first 500 are going to go pretty easily and quickly.   The best tongue in cheek Chrysler quote I heard about the Daytona and THEN having to turn around and build 2000 Superbirds, was that "We pretty much tapped out the idiot market with the Daytona".   Superbirds were a harder sell, well, because there were more of them to unload.

Styling had nothing to do with it.  Then as now, folks would argue which was the better looking. 

Superbirds sitting on lots for years?   That's pretty much bull, and an urban legend that just won't die like "all those dealers that took the noses and wings off".    Isolated instances?  Yes.    But very few.   

It's my opinion that the dealers who had cars left over into 1971 were those that WANTED them to be left over.  Either they liked the car and wanted it a bit longer, or more likely they enjoyed complaining to the zone rep about how the car had been dumped on them from the sales bank and how saleproof they felt car was.   

Bob and Sharon Malcolm are good examples of my point above.  As a small dealer they would have liked to have kept the Superbird they had, but could not afford to just absorb the cost.   Then as now, car dealers do now want to continue to pay floorplan financing every month on a piece of dead inventory.   More likely, if worse came to worse, they'd dealer trade the car, or just blow it out. 

The 268 mile Superbird that came out of Clinton Iowa in 1973 was a situation where the dealer just used it as leverage with his zone rep, possibly to get concessions somewhere down the line.   It wasn't so much as he couldn't sell it, as that he WOULDN'T sell it.   And he sold it for full sticker in '73.

[Ghoste]

I know I'm going to sound dumb here, but, if the cars were good sellers, why would the Malcolm's need to worry about dead inventory?  Doesn't dead automatically imply a poor seller?

[Aero426]

I know I'm going to sound dumb here, but, if the cars were good sellers, why would the Malcolm's need to worry about dead inventory?  Doesn't dead automatically imply a poor seller?

I am not picking on you here, so don't assume I'm going down that road.   

I never said they were good sellers.  I said they managed to get most of them sold over the normal period of time.  Cars were moved around to markets where they would tend to do well.  From the summer of '70 on there are examples of cars being heavily discounted.  By the fall there were not a lot of cars left.  In Milwaukee which is not exactly the hotbed of NASCAR racing, the last Bird in the area left the lot in September of '70, and THAT one they saw the young buyer coming and nailed him for full sticker.   Lucky for the owner, he still has the car and got the last laugh.

Dead inventory implying "hard to sell", or "we're stuck with it",  is something any dealer would fear for a special 1970 car still on hand in 1971 on the books at full boat value.  While you as the dealer are paying for the car monthly on your floorplanning, it's going down in retail value by the month.  So until the time that you as a dealer found the "right buyer" looking for a new year old Superbird,  you were in a world of hurt.   Keep in mind there was no internet where you could just dial up a car as a consumer.   If you were in Alabama and wanted a new Bird in '71, it'd be pretty tough to find our hypothetical car sitting there in Peebles Ohio.   Again, the incentive for car dealers is to move the product quickly, not sit on it.   Even the dealer of the Limelight Daytona, clueless as he was to selling high performance did whatever he thought he could do to get the car sold, which to him meant painting it a bright color.     

Anyway, back to the example of the Malcolms, their case was that financially, they could not keep the car, no way, no how.    It never went beyond that. 

[hemigeno]

"We pretty much tapped out the idiot market with the Daytona".   

Classic...   

[resq302]

Funny, I have heard the same thing about the new Charger Daytonas.   

[Ghoste]

I didn't think you were picking on me, I just wasn't able to follow your logic in the other post for some reason.  Since I had never found that in one of your posts before, I just figured it was a brick in my head someplace.  I see your point now and the internet analogy helped clear it.  I worked in dealerships a decade after the aero cars and of course we had microfiche then to help locate cars so I'm assuming that resource may not have existed in 1970 either.  No matter, I also know that dealers HATE finding cars someplace else.  Sell from stock is the order of the day.

So why has this urban myth grown then about the cars languishing on lots?

[hemigeno]

So why has this urban myth grown then about the cars languishing on lots?

Probably because lots of people back then DID think the cars were unusual, bordering on hideous (see "idiot" comment above).  It would logically follow then that the cars were a tough sell.  A few isolated incidents of cars sticking around for years, despite the reasons why that might have been, over time becomes embellished to the point that you'd think these cars were albatrosses that none of the dealers wanted.

I think Doug is right - the cars were usually not great sellers, but they probably weren't as bad as some of the urban myth stories made them out to be. 

If the internet had been in place years ago (gee, I thought Al Gore was around back then), they might not have had near the problems getting rid of them.  I know of one owner who explained that when he went to buy his Daytona at a St. Louis dealership, a bidding war erupted in the dealership's showroom which almost led to a fistfight.  He ended up paying way over sticker price for his Daytona.  You just don't hear as much about high-demand stories like that, which might be just as common as the "albatross" variety.

[Aero426]

So why has this urban myth grown then about the cars languishing on lots?

In my opinion, the myth has grown because somebody knew a friend who heard from someone else that it happened.   In other words, a lot of hearsay.   

For the sake of discussion, lets say that there were 50 unsold wing cars left over at the end of 1970, which on the surface sounds like a lot - one car for every state.  That's still only two percent of total production. 

[hotrod98]

In 2005, my wife bought a new Go-Mango Ram Daytona pickup. My wife loves wingcars and this was her replacement...for now. The owner of the Dodge dealership here was worried that the Daytonas wouldn't sell so he discounted it pretty heavily. With my son's employee discount that amounted to around 8k off of sticker. As the end of the year came around, all of the Daytona trucks that he had on his lot sold, but there were still a quite few around the country that didn't sell and I just saw a new one on E-bay last week. Some models just take longer to find their market.
My point is, I don't think the Superbirds were any less successful than many of the cars selling today. I think that they just stood out so much back then that people assumed that they didn't sell because they were undesirable.

[69_500]

So Doug is there a good percentage of origional wing car owners still in possesion of their cars? I've met a few over the years, but not a whole lot. Granted the majority of them will be starting to get up in age now. But I like hearing of people holding on to these cars for 25+ years. Because to me that says they love the cars for what they are, and not for financial means or gains. They bought the cars when they were just a used or new cars. And still have them.

[Aero426]

So Doug is there a good percentage of origional wing car owners still in possesion of their cars? I've met a few over the years, but not a whole lot. Granted the majority of them will be starting to get up in age now. But I like hearing of people holding on to these cars for 25+ years. Because to me that says they love the cars for what they are, and not for financial means or gains. They bought the cars when they were just a used or new cars. And still have them.

For the guys who have owned them for so long, the financial part tends to be less important.  Certainly it's a nice thing to have in your back pocket, but dollars are not the driving force it seems to be for some people.    Certainly it seems there are more Bird original owners or "early adopters" than for Daytonas.  An original Daytona owner is a rare Bird.    

[Ghoste]

Any theories?   

[69_500]

Well I'm certainly glad that you still have the 2 wing cars that your dad owned Doug. I wish like heck I had the same opprotunity to have 2 of my dad's old cars. Like your father he had quite a few, and hey and 2 of them would be fine by me.

I know this for sure. I'll be passing which ever ones I get on to my son.

[daytonalo]

The bottom line for me and most of us poor people is , keep grinding , fitting , sanding and spending our milk money to build a clone , just my two cents . Larry O

[Ghoste]

Milk money?  Damn!  That's why the wife and kids all start to moaning and complaining every time I go to the garage.  I'm gonna teach 'em to drink water instead, hahaha. 

[Old Moparz]

For the guys who have owned them for so long, the financial part tends to be less important.  Certainly it's a nice thing to have in your back pocket, but dollars are not the driving force it seems to be for some people.    Certainly it seems there are more Bird original owners or "early adopters" than for Daytonas.  An original Daytona owner is a rare Bird.    

I agree with the financial part being less important, my friend with the 2 Superbirds is proof. He's had the lime 6 Pak one since 1973, & the white 4V one since the late '70's. A limited budget keeps either car from being a show car, & the only way it could happen would be to sell one to restore the other. That's not an option according to him, so the white one is a nice driver while the lime one awaits some work to get it on the road again. People ask about buying them & they are not for sale at any price.

He & his friends had nothing but high performance Mopars when these were new. They could only afford a used one at the time, but whatever they found they drove the hell out of & got another when they wore it out. They were fairly cheap & easy to get back then because they were abused gas pigs. If I had been a few years older than I am, I bet I'd have been doing the same thing. What a difference 5 or 6 years makes on what was considered a used car. Based on what I own now, I don't think I'd part with one either.

[69_500]

Hey ghoste if you wish to switch to water, let me know. Thats my new job, is water delivery.

I can say this, when I do get my hands on a wing car, albeit a Daytona because I don't want a Bird. I WILL NEVER LET IT GO.

[Ghoste]

That's a looong way to make a delivery my friend.

[69_500]

Ah its just a hop skip and a jump up a few states and accross a national boarder. Nothing major.

[Ghoste]

I'll leave a light on.