Converting 400 to 512

[Challenger_7]

Hi all

Having sorted all the body components in preparation for a ground up resto for my conv 71 Chally, now comes the turn of the engine.
A member here suggested 440Source (www.440source.com) who sell very nice and fairly priced kits to transform the 400 engine I have, to 512.
I will need further advice to complete the transformation as they mainly deal with the crankshaft, con rods, pistons and bearings. My questions are:

1. Has anyone used their kits, and if yes which one and what results/comments/recommendations?
2. To get the best out of their kit and not loosing the smooth running of the engine, nor getting into a much higher idle rpm, what camshaft and other equipment should I buy and where from.

Will stop here and ask a bit more as the discussion developes.

Thanks

[mikepmcs]

here's a thread to read on this same subject.

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,22586.0.html

as for the cam,a lot on here will recommend the Engle cams(i'm getting one).  The Mopar performance cams aren't everyone's favorite(i'm going to change mine)

DO a search in the engine section of this site and you will most likely find the answers to all your questions already. 

if not, ask more specific questions about your build(start a list)  and people will bring you all kinds of suggestions.

good luck

v/r
Mike

[Challenger_7]

Thanks Mike, I will do as you suggest and read the thread, then revert back.

Cheers,

Farouk

[firefighter3931]

The 4.25 crank in a lowdeck 400 block is not a steet friendly build, inmo. Bad rod ratio, short pistons means it will live a short life on the street. 


Ron

[Challenger_7]

Oh no....Just as I was getting excited about transforming my engine
Ok Ron, you are the Guru here, so please explain further.

From the comments seen in the thread referred to by Mike above, there seems to be no complaints.
I have exchanged emails with Brandon of "440Source" and whilst commenting on the various kits they offer for the 400 block, he recommended the 400>512 instead of the 400>500 as this last one has short pistons.
Would this mean that the 400>512 has long enough pistons to address your concern?
Are you well familiar with what they offer that even with this comment you still feel concerned or you would need me to ask about the size of the pistons?
If you are very familiar with their kits and still have reservations, what do you recommend to soup up my 400 block?

For the benefit of this thread and others, I am attaching copies of the relevant mails as photos.

By the way, how do we attach word documents

[Chryco Psycho]

I aree with Ron
keep the CI at or below 470 in the 400 block for a street engine
if you want ot go over 500 " use a 440 block
the 451 should be adequate for what you need , it has the same rod ratio as the 440 at 1.8 but removes 7 lbs from the rotating mass
if you want to do a 440 use eithewr the 500" with a 1.62 rod ratio or the 512 with a better 1.7 ratio
440 source has good stuff 

[Mfr426]

This is a very informative thread. Thanks to Ron and Neil for their input!!!

(I'm watching quietly in the background).

Mike R in Reading PA

[firefighter3931]

Chryco and i are on the same page when it comes to these street type stroker builds. Rod ratio and cylinder side loading are major considerations when considering all the components. The lowdeck stroker with a big crank will require a short rod and short pistons. Great for a race engine but not so good for a street engine that will see extended periods of idleing in traffic.

In terms of performance ; a short rod build with a less than desirable rod ratio needs a big cylinder head to work effectively. A long rod build will produce a flatter torque curve and can get away with a smaller cylinder head. That is why 440's run so good from the factory....it's a well designed package despite a weak flowing cylinder head which is arguably, too small for the displacement.

As mentioned above, the 451 is an excellent combo for the street and will work fine with a stock cylinder head. Basicly it's a 440 in a 400 block with lightweight pistons. Less rotating mass means it will rev faster and accelerate quicker than a comparable 440 (RB) based build.


That's it in a nutshell 




Ron

[Challenger340]

I machine, sonic test,  & build alot of these engines, probably 20 or so in the last year alone.

The problems dimensionally, with strokers approaching 500 inch and above, are twofold.

1.) Cylinder wall integrity, as it relates to rod length, which also effects port demand, but lets leave that one for now.

2.) Piston skirt length, as it effects sealing and longevity.


First up, is the wall integrity, # 1.
400 engines have stronger cylinder walls than 440 blocks.
Not trying to start a fight here, but, stop for a second and think about it.

If you had a 3 ft long piece of 3/8" redi-rod, placed your hands at either end, and tried to bend it, you probably could.
Now, cut it down to a 1 ft length, and try to bend it. "SEE" what I'm talking about here ?
Dimensionally, the 400 & 440 have the same wall thicknesses, it's just the 400 wall  is "shorter", less "unsupported" length, and therefore stronger for a given application.
400 blocks can retain LOWER wall loading ratios better than their 440 brethren.

How far below, I can't say. All I can say, is the 400's @ 1.62 ratio, survive very well @ 700 plus horsepower, where in my experience, the 440 walls tend to "cave-in" much sooner.


Second issue is Piston Skirt length, # 2.

Short skirt pistons are not necessarily the problem. The skirt length used as per a given Rod ratio IS !

A 451 engine, using a 6.76 rod and the high 1.8 ratio has little or no sealing issues. And the Piston is a 1.32 Comp. Distance. Less angularity, less wall loading, stronger walls in the 400 block.

Take the same Piston @ 1.32 and use a 1.52 ratio from a 6.535 cheb rod, on the 4.250 stroke, "512", and well, I think it's gonna probably have a premature Oil problem during street useage.
Bunch of reasons, Ring speed, skirt length and "rock", wall load "area" of the short skirt, etc., etc.

Bottom line for me, in my opinion, is I have NO issues with the 400 blocks @ 500", and prefer them over the 440 blocks, especially above 600 horsepower, even with the 440's higher ratio.
That said, I don't think the 512 is a hitter combo for the lowdeck, even with the increased skirt length because it trades off too much angularity.

just my opinion. Bob out.

[is_it_EVER_done?]

Challenger_7:  I agree with the others, though for much different reasons, but If I was doing a build in your geographical location (difficulty/expense of maintenance and parts), I would build a 470 inch instead of the 512.

Though you didn't really state what your intended use for your car is, or how many miles you will be putting on it. Reading through your questions to Brandon at 440-Source gives me the idea that you will be driving the car quite often, and racing is not a consideration, or is a minimall/occasional consideration. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

The 470 is in my opinion the best Chrysler big block that can be built from a power longevity standpoint, as it is capable of 100,000+ mile longevity, whereas the 500+ inch 400's will need freshening/maintenance at a fraction of that millage. If you lived over here, that might not be a problem, but where you are, I can see it being an un-acceptable situation.

Also, you need to understand that the 500+ inch engine won't really make any more power/torque than the 470, unless you plan on buying heads that are capable of dealing with the extra cubic inches. What the bigger engine will do is bring the torque on at a few hundred RPM less than the 470, but this is not necessarily a good thing as it will blow the tires off unless you do some extensive mods to the cars suspension. You would be amazed at how many cars are running around that are actually slower on the street with big inch strokers than they were with stock displacement because the additional power just goes up in tire smoke.

Not only that, but the 470 will be easier on your other drivetrain components (clutch, transmission, U-joints, driveshaft, rear end/axles, etc.), not to mention that it's easier on the block itself, as well as requiring less cam lift (valve spring pressures and wear). But make no mistake, a 470 is an amazing performance increase, and can be better/quicker than a bigger engine in a stock suspensioned car.

A few questions that would be important in making definite recommendations would be - What is your planned use for the car, and how many miles do you plan on driving it per year? - Is gas mileage a consideration?

What is your budget for the engine itself?

What is your rear end (8-3/4 I'm assuming), and what is the ratio? - is it a sure grip/posi?

Do you plan on making it look stock, or are performance parts (and their appearance) OK?

What cylinder heads do you plan on using? - Intake manifold? - exhaust system/manifolds?

Solid or Hydraulic cam? - Power brakes?

Do you know how the octane rating of your gasoline is determined? (just out of personal interest, what does it cost per gallon)?

What other mods do you plan on doing to your car?  -- I strongly suggest that you at least put sub frame connectors in with a stroker motor and a 4-speed.

What RPM do you plan on revving it to?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but since you state that there is nowhere to get a crank balanced in your area, I'm guessing that you will not be able to get your block bored/honed with torque plates? If so, all the more reason to avoid a 500+ engine, as the shorter pistons are more critical regarding final honing precision.

Just so you know my take and experience, and have another/different opinion, I believe that rod ratio is basically meaningless, and that from a power standpoint a short rod is superior (within reason) to a long rod. Side loading of the cylinder wall (particularly in a stroked 400 block) is definitely not a factor, Piston length is extremely important from a longevity (high mileage) standpoint, (to reduce piston rock). So why am I against a 500+ inch 400 (for street use)? because the piston comes so far down/outside the cylinder at the bottom of the stroke that it is scary! if the cylinders had a longer skirt on them, it would be fine, but the pistons come so far out of the bores that it appears that it couldn't possibly work (though countless engines prove that it can). But with only about an inch of piston in the bore, you can SEE the piston rock as it starts up the bore! - Not a high millage engine in my opinion.

[AKcharger]

Another future stroker builder watching from the sidelines...

[Charger1973]

I am also considering building up a 400.   My original plan was to just get a 440 but I hear alot about these 400 builds and well, I already have a 74 400 HP motor in my car.  I dont know alot about engines...  I can take one out and put one in but the technical stuff is like another language to me.

I plan to drive my car, it will not be a race car but like anyone else, I want the biggest baddest engine within reason.  It will not be a daily driver but there will be nice days and I will want to go on cruises.  It may even see occasional roadtrips, I dont plan to trailer it anywhere.  I was thinking about keeping the 727 however that could possibly change to a 4 speed (doubtful at this point).  Aftermarket looking is ok, and actually preferred.  I will have subframe connectors and possibly other mods to the suspension I havent actually thought about yet.  It will be 8 3/4 rear...  thinkin along the lines of 3.55 suregrip. 

Would the 400 be a good motor for me or would I be best looking for a 440?  If the 400 is the way to go, what should I build it into? 

[MOPARHOUND!]

I have been collecting 400 versus 440 debate information for several years now.

Based on your car being a ground up resto, I'm going to presume this is a cruiser 99% of the time, and not a race car chasing every tenth possible off the E.T. slip at the drag strip each weekend.

The 2 most relevant concerns I have against a B stroker engine for a street build would be:

1) The B stroker piston is short, rendering the combo prone to longevity issues.  This becomes even more pronounced the longer the stroke, the higher the position of the wrist pin, and the shorter the piston's compression height.  What stroke in a RB block would necessitate the use of a 451 B stroker piston spec.?  A 470 B stroker piston spec.?  (EDIT: A 400 >> 500 combination (4.150" stroke/6.760" rod)
B stroker piston puts the wrist pin into the oil ring rail.  Drag racers use a special oil ring setup to help alleviate this problem, and are known to spend the $$$ for near 360 degree skirting on their pistons.)

2) Contrary to theory/physics, the shorter cylinder walls of the B have not proven to be a real world advantage to the longer RB cylinder walls.  A direct quote, and an indirect quote, from 2 long time mopar engine builders in Florida (paraphrased and edited for diplomatic reasons, as one was rather emphatic about his findings):

"Alot has been said about block strength differences between low deck and RB blocks. I would say the bottom end is surely stronger in the lowdeck block, but the "theory" about stiffer cylinder walls isn't so.  I've done random sampling on no less the 25 blocks and found that when removing the torque plate after honing, the lowdeck B shows more cylinder distortion by more than .001 every time.  We have seen the RB walls move as much as .0016", the low decks have moved as much as .0031". That's a huge difference. It's not a scientific test, since very few of those blocks were sonic checked, but since the head bolt pattern is the same for both, you explain the difference..........."

A reply in the same thread:

"Dan Dvorak would not even build my 493" out of my nice 400 block for this very reason (cylinder distortion)."  (And this was a street/mostly strip build.)

Short piston, in a cylinder prone to distortion, not a desirable recipe for longevity on the street.

----------------------------------------------------

Other considerations, though more applicable to strip engines pushing the parts to their limits, and for maximum performance, than to your street build:

3) The smaller B motor intake is inferior to the RB.  This limits choices to a less than ideal intake (comparatively), a tunnel ram, or the utilization of Stage VI heads to allow the RB intake to be used on the B.  Will you ask an intake designed for a 400 cid engine to flow air for a 512 cid engine?  Last I read, Indy Cylinder Head makes a respectable single 4v intake for the B engine, but it's $$$, around $400 to your door.

4) The B crank main spec. of 2.625" is inferior to the RB's 2.750" (exponentially).  B block main saddles are stronger, but B crank spec. is weaker.  Which is the weakest link in the chain?  Which breaks first?  Block or crank?  Thus, at what point would you be better off with an aftermarket block (hmmm.....what size are their mains)?  Further, it has been suggested if you do the rpm and physics math, strokers will stress the bearings more, wearing them faster than a stock stroke configuration.  While I have yet to find real world experience feedback/info, the larger surface area of the RB bearing would have the advantage for strength/longevity on paper.  Drag racers will tell you they like the reduced drag of the smaller B bearing.

5) The factory cast B block cylinder walls have been found to have a greater instance of core shift than the RB block cylinder walls.  Got a sonic tester with you to test that swap meet 400 block?  I have an acquaintance that split cylinders in 3 different B blocks in a rail, and gave up on the combo.  Thin cylinder walls and/or cylinder distortion under heavy load???

There are B engine combos in A-Body drag cars being used successfully.  The B engine is smaller overall, giving it the advantage over the larger RB in a space limited A-body, unlike B and E bodies that came factory engineered for the RB.  Also, race engines typically put the miles on 1/4 mile at a time and are torn down/freshened on an annual/semi-annual basis, reducing some of the longevity concerns the B stroker has.  As pointed out earlier in the thread, less reciprocating mass will give the B stroker the advantage at the track.  But how much?  After all the debate and head scratching, and after all the money and time are invested in a B stroker endeavor, to quote a builder from Michigan, 30+ years building mopar engines, "it's worth a tenth to a tenth and a half" at the track. 

Conclusion:

If 440 or more cubic inches is your goal for a street build, choose an RB block.

If more than the 650 horsepower is your goal, what an RB block can handle (general consensus, some say 700), choose an aftermarket block.

I don't even consider the 400 B block.  (Flamesuit on!).

---------------------------

This is a great "bench racing" topic.  Feel free to agree, disagree, or refute the above opinions.     

[Challenger340]

Great to hear varied opinions !

Just proves also, "that everbody has one ".

I own a sonic tester, and check every block, and I just can't verify what you're saying MOPARHOUND, nor can I say I've ever seen the cylinder distortional differences you mention.  I also own a CV 616.

I think it best, that without a somewhat "scientific" approach to the methodolgy of how it's being done, as you point out, that NO ONE can unequivocably verify claims, or say "IT'S THIS WAY", myself included.

Just my opinion, but I also don't think it's fair to quote "legendary" engine builders, and say "they said this or that".
Not that I don't think YOUR  opinions are valid, THEY ARE !

It's just that unless they themselves have said it to YOU, or you can point to a link of them being "quoted" saying it, I think what you're saying is "opinions based on your investigation" !

I actually find the 400 blocks maintain the Walls, BETTER than the RB blocks during honing with a Torqueplate, GO FIGURE !

And, I've also found for MY OWN preference, the 400 blocks survive better above 700 Horesepower, than the 440's.

EVERYTHING has plus's and minus. Bigger brg. diameters, 2.625 to 2.750", also means higher bearing speeds ! See what I mean ?

We go nuts trying to order Ford Motorsport "M" blocks with the smaller "Cleveland" mains for that very reason, to lower the bearing speed.

No one can say "this is the right way" period, myself included again, just "what works for me".

MOPARHOUND, Everyone, will always have "personal" preferences, and those "ARE YOURS ONLY", as "THESE ARE ONLY MINE"

Great to hear varied "OPINIONS"  !  I MEAN THAT !

[Challenger_7]

What a great bunch you guys are, and thank you all for your time and comments.
With so much input, I must admit I am more confused than ever
But I am very happy at the flow of information, and eventually, I know I will point in the right direction, for me at least.

Anyway, to continue my participation, and hopefully make things easier, I will answer some of the questions made by is_it_ever_done?

In all, your interpritation of my intended use of the car is spot on. Drive it occasionally, enjoy it, show it off, and put some sense into the challenging unbeliever occasionally - Definately no racer. Other questions you asked are as follows:

Planned use of the car will be occasional week-end drives, doubtfully more than 3000 miles/year
Gas mileage not a consideration
Engine budget: As the need calls. I have the 400 running in my car and want to make the best out of it, not considering buying a different block, as none available here and would not really want to import one.
Rear end, ratio etc..No idea, will have to find out, but I do not understand the meaning of "sure grip/posi" Please explain.
I wish to keep it looking stock
Cylinder heads/ Intake/ Exhaust: will buy modified ones as the need calls, no problem there
Presumably hydraulic cam, will find out.
Power brakes - yes
Octane is 95 and 98, both unleaded, but do not know how it is determined.
Cost is roughly $3.00 per gallon (assuming 3.8 liters per gallon)
Other mods will depend on your recommendations. I am a novice at this, and this is my first
RPM is not an issue for me. I just want to be able to keep my pace with other cars if I decide to take up their challenge on the streets, occasionally.
Boring/honing is no problem. What is the meaning of "....with torque plates"? Is this a special proceedure of boring/honing?

Hope this helps your recommendation

Moparhound Much grammer there and you have succeeded very well in sending me rolling in circles However, lecture much appreciated, and in short what you are saying is go all the way and not half the way..

Challenger340 Again explanations much appreciated, and you would stick to the 400. Interestingly, you say it would survive better above 700 hp than the 440. What stroker kit will you use to get that much hp. 470 and work on all the other factors or what??

Mfr426 I was supposed to be watching in the background while YOU order your 512 !!! Glad you slowed down to see the outcome here

Firefighter, Chryco Psycho you both seem to prefer the 451 kit, as to be used with stock parts. Will it still be a good choice to go for the 470 without concerns on your part, but presumably will need to change parts of the engine??

Thank you all again, and look so much forward to your continued input.

Cheers

[mikepmcs]

Rear end, ratio etc..No idea, will have to find out, but I do not understand the meaning of "sure grip/posi" Please explain.

Here's a good explanation.

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/differential.htm


Mopar guys call it sure grip, chevy guys call it posi.  I'll tell you it comes in handy though when you are searching ebay for mopar gears and type in posi.  Cause then you stand a chance of getting it for a good deal, unless everyone else searches this way too.  Oops, should have kept my mouth shut.


v/r
Mike

[Challenger340]

Challenger_7

For Stroker kits under 500" I use 400 blocks, just because of my "personal preference", based on MY experience only, What "WORKS" for me, above 700 H.P.
At 600/625 H.P. it doesn't matter which block you use, and there are longevity enhancements available in the talldeck blocks Piston-wise.

I should clarify that these are Race/Bracket Engines, over 700 H.P. I will send you links in "pm" to satisfy your curiosity.

I will be dyno'ing a "nice" little "pump gas" 451 engine, probably late next week sometime, I will post results here http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,23089.0.html
It will NOT be over 700 H.P., but might be worth a look, considering what you're doing. It's an Easy combo to copy.

[firefighter3931]

Farouk, based on the intended use of your car, the 451 stroker would be the easiest way to go. You'll make plenty of power and it won't cost a small fortune to build. 


Ron

[OttawaCharger]

Interesting stuff! 

[Challenger_7]

Farouk, based on the intended use of your car, the 451 stroker would be the easiest way to go. You'll make plenty of power and it won't cost a small fortune to build. 


Ron

Yes I guess so. You and most of the opinions above seem to point in that direction. Just one clarification, should I keep everything else stock or think of intake and any thing else.
I willdefinitely need a new carb. What is a good choice?

Thanks

Challenger340 Thanks for the links and the reply too. I am very much interested in what yoou will build and will stay tuned

Thanks

[firefighter3931]

Farouk, based on the intended use of your car, the 451 stroker would be the easiest way to go. You'll make plenty of power and it won't cost a small fortune to build. 


Ron

Yes I guess so. You and most of the opinions above seem to point in that direction. Just one clarification, should I keep everything else stock or think of intake and any thing else.
I willdefinitely need a new carb. What is a good choice?

Thanks

Well it depends on how much power you want to make and how much you want to spend. The iron heads with a simple valvejob a good cam, intake, carb and headers will make 425-450hp pretty easy. You need to consider the cam profile carefully if the car has power brakes because those run off of manifold vacuum and too big of a cam will render the brake booster inoperable. If you plan to use factory manifolds, i would highly recommend you get a set of HP manifolds if you don't allready have them. The cam profile will be different for a manifold exhaust system than for headers. The cam duration also needs to be sized so that it's compatible with your new converter. As you can see there are a lot of variables.

I like holley carbs on a performance build. The fuel curve is "dialed in" for that type of application.



Ron

[Challenger_7]

Thanks again Ron for your information, and once again I will need more details, If you will.

1. "...simple valve job...". What is this supposed to mean? Pls specify and if it means new valves, pls recommend a brand.
2. Same thing applies for cam, intake, and manifolds.
3. How do I know if I have HP manifolds?
4. Cam profile, yes you are right, and I have that problem now on my SS Camaro. The engine was souped up and now I have no brakes. I checked with "yearone" and they have an electric vaccuum pump for $277. I was once told that we could buy a sort of a collection tank and connect it to the manifold which will keep the tank filled up and ready, and it is around $125. Do you know anything about this tank? Or do you an alternate supplier to such a vaccuum pump?

As such, please advise on a complete set that matches everything, as I am really clueless on these issues. I know what you are talking about but in no posistion to pick the correct items. By the way, this particular car is a manual gear.

Thanks again, Farouk

[firefighter3931]

Thanks again Ron for your information, and once again I will need more details, If you will.

1. "...simple valve job...". What is this supposed to mean? Pls specify and if it means new valves, pls recommend a brand.
2. Same thing applies for cam, intake, and manifolds.
3. How do I know if I have HP manifolds?
4. Cam profile, yes you are right, and I have that problem now on my SS Camaro. The engine was souped up and now I have no brakes. I checked with "yearone" and they have an electric vaccuum pump for $277. I was once told that we could buy a sort of a collection tank and connect it to the manifold which will keep the tank filled up and ready, and it is around $125. Do you know anything about this tank? Or do you an alternate supplier to such a vaccuum pump?

As such, please advise on a complete set that matches everything, as I am really clueless on these issues. I know what you are talking about but in no posistion to pick the correct items. By the way, this particular car is a manual gear.

Thanks again, Farouk

Farouk, to answer your questions ;

(1) basic 3 angle valvejob. If the stock valves are in good shape just reuse them. If new valves are needed there are many choices. Milidon carries a line of stainless steel valves that are very good quality. Your machinist can decide when the heads are torn down and inspected.

(2) cam will depend on manifold exhaust system, power brakes and rear axle ratio. It will depend on all these factors. Crower has a few off the shelf grinds that would work very well in this type of build. The HDP271 cam would be an excellent choice. A Wiend dual plane manifold would be a good choice. Year One carries reproduction HP manifolds or you can buy some used ones.

*if you can, take some pics and post them so we can see what you've got on there now.

(3) post the pics

(4) With the right cam, there won't be any need for a reservoir or vacuum pump. The Crower grind will make lots of manifold vacuum. 


Just out of curiosity ; do you have any idea what axle ratio is in the car ?



Ron

[Challenger340]

The 451 results are in, 583 Ft/lbs Torque & 574 H.P., all done by 5700 rpm with the 242 Duration "baby cam", and Torker 383 Intake with 750 carb.
See Performance section

Bob out.

[Challenger_7]

Farouk, to answer your questions ;

(1) basic 3 angle valvejob. If the stock valves are in good shape just reuse them. If new valves are needed there are many choices. Milidon carries a line of stainless steel valves that are very good quality. Your machinist can decide when the heads are torn down and inspected.

(2) cam will depend on manifold exhaust system, power brakes and rear axle ratio. It will depend on all these factors. Crower has a few off the shelf grinds that would work very well in this type of build. The HDP271 cam would be an excellent choice. A Wiend dual plane manifold would be a good choice. Year One carries reproduction HP manifolds or you can buy some used ones.

*if you can, take some pics and post them so we can see what you've got on there now.

(3) post the pics

(4) With the right cam, there won't be any need for a reservoir or vacuum pump. The Crower grind will make lots of manifold vacuum. 


Just out of curiosity ; do you have any idea what axle ratio is in the car ?

Ron

Thanks Ron for the details.

1. On the valve Job, if I use new stainless valves, will I need new seats to cope with the harder (stainless) valves?
2. Cam, ok noted
3. Manifold here are 2 pics. Hope they are sufficient
4. Axle ratio not known. I will try to measure it, but my mech believes it should be in the 3.23 range. Does this make sense?He also described it as the "Auto block" type, which as described by him, sort of locks the two wheels on take off for better performance. Does this also make sense and true??

Finally, I have decided not to touch my current engine, and to buy another 400 engine and do all the work on it. This way, I can still enjoy my car till everything is ready
I called my mech and told him to look for one. This way I can have it stripped down and take all the time and pics I need.

I have been reading "Summit" catalog which came with the "flexplate" needed for my other car, and they seem to offer many items that seem interesting. I will ask some questions about what they offer, later on.

Farouk

[Challenger_7]

Sorry, Forgot to post the pictures. I hope they help. If not, I will go to the car soon and take some more.

[firefighter3931]

Thanks Ron for the details.

1. On the valve Job, if I use new stainless valves, will I need new seats to cope with the harder (stainless) valves?
2. Cam, ok noted
3. Manifold here are 2 pics. Hope they are sufficient
4. Axle ratio not known. I will try to measure it, but my mech believes it should be in the 3.23 range. Does this make sense?He also described it as the "Auto block" type, which as described by him, sort of locks the two wheels on take off for better performance. Does this also make sense and true??


Farouk

Farouk,

(1) As long as you stay with the stock exhaust valve size there will be no need for new seats in those heads.

(2) The hdp271 grind would be my choice now that i see you have AC, PB, and gears in the 3.23 range.

(3) The intake and exhaust manifolds should be replaced.....both are low compression (smog motor) pieces. Those log style exhaust manifolds are very restrictive and won't get the job done on a 451 stroker.

(4) The suregrip rear end is a good thing. See if you can get a difinative answer on the axle ratio.



Ron



Ps. One other thing worth noting ; the B&M flexplate you just ordered won't work with a 451 because the stroker kit will be internally balanced. You will need to get a new flexplate and harmonic balancer for the new engine combination. 

[Challenger_7]

Thanks Ron.

On the flexplate, it is for my other Challenger, not this one. But still you are saying I will need a new flexplate for the 451 kit. Understood, but which one?
But for the balancing issue, I had asked source440 if they can balance the crank, and they confirmed they will do at an additional cost. Will I still need anything on the balancer side than what they will offer, if I buy their kit?

[firefighter3931]

Farouk, i guess i'm confused here....you have more than one Challenger ? I just assumed you were talking about stroking the engine (400ci) that was having vibration issues. 

On the 440source rotating assembly : it will be internally balanced so you need a neutral balance harmonic balancer, and a neutral balance tq converter with the matching flexplate. Brandon @ 440source can supply you with these parts.



Ron

[Challenger_7]

Farouk, i guess i'm confused here....you have more than one Challenger ? I just assumed you were talking about stroking the engine (400ci) that was having vibration issues. 

Ron

Yes Ron I do, and I am sorry for the confusion. I assumed you were following, but with so many other members for you to contribute to, it is normal you lose track
My 3 sweet hearts are all 71 Challengers, photos below.
The red one is the one that is having a vibration problem. I decided to open up the engine and check it out too before putting on the flexplate, as I do not trust what the previous owner's mechanics have done to the car. I will report my findings soon in the "how to balance an engine" thread.
The white convirtible is the one I aim to stroke, and will also be receiving a ground up restoration soon. I am just waiting for all the parts to come from "yearone".
The third white one is an all 100% original R/T, still untouched and in excellent condition with the build sheet intact! I willbe giving it a paint job and cosmetical up lift, as need be, but after I am done with the first two
Hope you enjoy the photos
Farouk

[firefighter3931]

Nice cars Farouk !  71 is my favorite Challenger, especially the R/T's 



Ron

[Challenger340]

Nice Cars Farouk !

[mikepmcs]

even though they are all the same year, i really like the looks of that red one.  At least if i ever get one, i know what year to look for!!!

v/r
Mike

[Challenger_7]

Thank you guys for the compliment. Yes 71 is my favourite too and that is why I couldn't help buying them Eventually, and for the right price, I will let go of the red one as originally per the vin number, it was sipposed to have a small engine, where as the two others are 383 magnums by the vin.
The R/T is still 100% original as per the build sheet except for the dash board whaich has benn changed to ralley type.

Ron: Ok I ckecked the convertible ratio, and this is the one I wish to do stroke the engine. I was shocked, it is roughly 1.7 
Justy to make sure I am talking sense, I marked one tyre, and marked the transmission shaft (the one going from the engine side to the differential). When the tyre rotated one complete turn, the shaft rotated roughly 1.7 turns. Is this the ratio or do I have to multiply it by 2?? Pls advise.

Bob:Remember I said I am interested in small block strokers, well here are photos of two of of my small block cars, the first being a 72 Plymouth (also most of it is still original with tags and all), and the second is a 72 charger (the photo is during the Israeli attack where a nearby bridge was blown and the car was nearby, but still repairable). The third is for a 70 Challenger but with a straight six engine. Have you done a stroker for such an engine before, or it is not worth it? Better put in a big block engine? All three cars I do not intend to keep, but will put them in great condition with a powerful engine before letting them go.

Regards, Farouk

[firefighter3931]

Ron: Ok I ckecked the convertible ratio, and this is the one I wish to do stroke the engine. I was shocked, it is roughly 1.7 
Justy to make sure I am talking sense, I marked one tyre, and marked the transmission shaft (the one going from the engine side to the differential). When the tyre rotated one complete turn, the shaft rotated roughly 1.7 turns. Is this the ratio or do I have to multiply it by 2?? Pls advise.

Regards, Farouk

Farouk, it sounds like you have an open rear end (non suregrip). To check the axle ratio on an open rear ; leave one wheel on the ground and repeat the same test. Give that a try and let us know what you come up with. 


Ron


Ps. Nice collection of Mopars....you've got everything covered....B & E bodies 

[Challenger_7]

Thank you Ron  for the compliment.

On the ratio, that is how I did it. I lifted one side and rotated the wheel till it came back to position, and the transmission shaft had rotated just under 1.6 turns. Today I measured the tape markings a bit more accurately. So what is the verdict. do I multiply by 2 to get the correct ratio?

Some more news on the "Red" car that I will post in the "how to balance an engine"

Cheers.

[MOPARHOUND!]

(Came across this old thread, thought it worth my time to reply).

Just my opinion, but I also don't think it's fair to quote "legendary" engine builders, and say "they said this or that".

My "opinions" are based on quotes I have personally read and/or copied, hard to get much more accurate or fair than that............ .

Moparts.com does not archive the Race Only forum to my knowledge, and those quotes have since past into anonymity from their site.  However.......

2) Contrary to theory/physics, the shorter cylinder walls of the B have not proven to be a real world advantage to the longer RB cylinder walls.  A direct quote, and an indirect quote, from 2 long time mopar engine builders in Florida (paraphrased and edited for diplomatic reasons, as one was rather emphatic about his findings):

"Alot has been said about block strength differences between low deck and RB blocks. I would say the bottom end is surely stronger in the lowdeck block, but the "theory" about stiffer cylinder walls isn't so.  I've done random sampling on no less the 25 blocks and found that when removing the torque plate after honing, the lowdeck B shows more cylinder distortion by more than .001 every time.  We have seen the RB walls move as much as .0016", the low decks have moved as much as .0031". That's a huge difference. It's not a scientific test, since very few of those blocks were sonic checked, but since the head bolt pattern is the same for both, you explain the difference..........."

A reply in the same thread:

"Dan Dvorak would not even build my 493" out of my nice 400 block for this very reason (cylinder distortion)."  (And this was a street/mostly strip build.)

The above quotes were "Copied" and pasted from a now expired January 2004 thread on Moparts.com.  Dead link:  http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=QuestionAnswer&Number=620064&fpart=&PHPSESSID .    DRAM is the poster of the direct quote, and Harpo is the poster of the Dan Dvorak indirect quote, he has an entire website devoted to his car, and combinations he has ran.  For what it is worth, DRAM's website: http://www.performanceonlyracing.com/ ...........  Harpo's website: http://www.health.ufl.edu/~rdeason/66dodge/engine.shtml    .............  Dan Dvorak's website:  http://www.dvorakmachine.com/

But how much?  After all the debate and head scratching, and after all the money and time are invested in a B stroker endeavor, to quote a builder from Michigan, 30+ years building mopar engines, "it's worth a tenth to a tenth and a half" at the track."

Chuck Senatore, owner Muscle Motors of Michigan, in his book "Big Block Mopar Performance", buy it here:  http://www.amazon.com/Big-blk-Mopar-Php1302-Chuck-Senatore/dp/1557883025/ref=sr_1_1/103-8946954-3315845?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1189108731&sr=8-1  (While I personally don't agree with a few other statements in the book, this one struck me as profound.)

"Opinions" otherwise are based on real world 400 versus 440 measurements/spec's, parts availability, etc..  Any other quotes you have in doubt?   

Perhaps my sig?

*Speed costs money son, how fast do you want to go, and for how long?"

An old racing cliche', no source needed.

*"Build the biggest engine you can afford the first time."

More than one source, but primarily Chuck Senatore, owner Muscle Motors of Michigan, in his book "Big Block Mopar Performance", buy it here:  http://www.amazon.com/Big-blk-Mopar-Php1302-Chuck-Senatore/dp/1557883025/ref=sr_1_1/103-8946954-3315845?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1189108731&sr=8-1

*"We normally wouldn't use a 383 for this build, parts and labor for a 440 cost the same"

Ray Barton, in an online Mopar Action(?) article once linked to in the "Proven Combo's" section of the old board by 6pkrunner.  Link died (copyright issues? managerial decision to sell more back issues?), and shortly thereafter the old Dodge Charger board died.   New board does not have "Proven Combo's" section.  Quote could be found in an old issue of the magazine.  Link to Mopar Action website, with numerous areas/sections: http://www.moparaction.com/ ............  Ray Barton's website:  http://www.raybarton.com/front_page.htm



     

[PA Dodger]

Wow, that was interesting. I had to sharpen my pencil 3 times taking notes. Maybe I don't want the 496 stroked 383 after all.  It really helps to have the "been there,done that" perspective some of you offer.  I'm thinking 600+ lbft torque is irrelevant once the tires start smoking anyway, but man that sure sounds like fun.
Dan

[Challenger_7]

MOPARHOUND Thank you for your contribution.
I have read this thread over and over again trying to decide what to do, as I have been quite confused and have not ordered a kit yet, but really itching to. In the meantime, I have used the car almost every week-end when the sun was shining.
However, I feel I have come to a conclusion: Will go for the 451, and here is why.
1. I intend to keep the car looking stock, so no major modifications especially to tyres in order to take the extra load.
2. I have recently been driving my 72 Trans Am 455 HO, the power there is amazing and I have to keep pulling my leg off the gas to stop the tires spinning. Even in 3rd gear I get occasional spins. As such with so much power coming in with kits above 451, I will be dancing samba on the road, and our roads are noth that wide
3. Last week-end, we had a classic car timed circuits, and suing my very tame 400 I came 1st amongst 12 cars that included a Dino, Lotus, two Corvettes, A/C Cobra (kit) a Jaguar E-Type and a bunch of other classics. Bottom line, with good skills a 451 will give me enough HP to claim my grounds occasionally.
4. Such a sleek convertible beauty should be kept civilized under the bonnet, and not roughened up by heading towards too much power. I can always do one of the coupes for that.
5. With so many cars in my plate, getting the extra power at a more conservative $$$ tag, is sure welcome.

So please buddies, give me a final supportive vote to say I am doing the right thing as summer will be over soon here in Lebanon, and time will be good to push the car to be stripped down for body and engine work.

1. A couple of questions still need addressing. I was told of a heavy duty clutch, one that is soft to start with and through momentum picks up more pressure to ensure softness on the foot, but strong grip on higher rpm. Any one knows about this and can recommend a supplier?
2. Ron You recommendd an HDP 271 Cam. Who supplies this?
Thanks again for all the input.
Farouk

[Purple440]

Farouk, that red and black Challanger on page 1 is probably the best looking Chally I've ever seen.  I'm using it as my windows desktop for a few days, hope you don't mind 

[Challenger_7]

Purple440 Thanks for the compliment, and you flatter me by using the photo on your desktop
A few members have expressed similar views about the colors and the other day I was driving in Beirut and stopped near a coffee bar, the type with tables on the road side, full of young and mature couples. A 2004 red pristine Ferrari was parked just outside the bar when I stopped there to pick up my daughter. Heads literally turned round and compliments like "wow this is a real car" were flowing from the crouds, totally overriding the presence of the Ferrari
So, buddy, you seem to share views with many, and if you wish to see some more photos of this car, please visit "challenger-registry.com" where this car and its history are featured there. It would also be nice if you register your car there too.
Cheers.