Question about my build ::UPDATE:: Timing Help!!

[73ChargerSE]

I'm planning to send my engine out to get machined in the next few weeks.  I just sold my Coronet, so I'm in a little bit of money.  What my plans are with the engine are to go .30 over and use the Keith Black pistons to raise the compression up.  What sort of cam would be best with the overbore and raise in compression?  I have 346 heads, what can I do with these to make them flow a little better on the cheap?   I'm planning to go for some Eddy heads when I get a little bit of money again. Also, what exhaust size should I run, and will my HP manifolds cut it? Or should I just look into some headers?  Is anyone besides TTI making headers that fit well?  I'm mainly wanting a strong engine that will be streetable as well as be able to take it to the track once and a while.  Any help is greatly appreciated.

Edit: What would be a good gasket set for the engine, and should I get any special head gaskets?

[Challenger340]

Is it a 383 or 440 ?

[73ChargerSE]

Sorry, forgot to mention it's a 400.

[Chryco Psycho]

The stock manifolds will "cut it" if they are the HP manifolds
the cam choice would be totally different depending on igf you Want the manifolds to work or if they will be replaced with headers
installing the 1.81 exhaust valves & blending behind the seat & backcutting the valve will make gains in the heads or to go further you can pocket port using Mopars templates
I would recommend 2.5" exhaust
I use the Mopar steel shim head gaskets mostly it will max the compression as well , I use Fel Pro for the rest of the gaskets
stil not a fan of KB pistons but the good alternative seems to be discontinued

[firefighter3931]

  The piston selection for 400ci engines is not good. Personally, i would spend the extra $$ and purchase a custom lightweight forging from diamond racing.....well worth the money. 


Ron

[73ChargerSE]

I guess I can keep the HP manifolds as I dont want the hassle with headers.  I don't really have the money for a crazy expensive set of pistons, and I was going to go with the KB's because they are affordable and have the size I need.  What are the drawbacks to the KBs?  Should I do anything fancy with the exhaust? (h-pipe etc.)  And the head gaskets, I can use the 4.380 inch?

[TylerCharger69]

From experience that I've had with KB pistons is assembly errors.  The compression rings need to be file fitted, especially the top ring because of heat expansion issues in the design.  The most common error is, lots of people ASSUME that the rings that come with the kits are ready to install.   Not so.  They usually come with a sheet telling you what the compression rings need to be filed at (thousandths of an inch).  We did a 289 Mustang not long ago and two of the pistons grenaded because the rings weren't filed properly (not me...the people who did the build prior to having me do it.)  Thus, pretty much busting the top of the pistons off.   Upon reading the literature,  the measurement that the rings SHOULD HAVE been filed were .075.  I thought that seemed like a lot, but then realized the method to the madness as far as heat dissipation and expansion were concerned.   Engine has been running great for 2 years and counting now.   I, myself have not had any problems with KB products.  Nor have I had any issues with Wiseco either...but that's another topic.

[Nacho-RT74]

It looks not too much ppl likes the casted pistons... but if you thing stock 400 pistons are also casted as far I remember, then what's the problem ? I know we must know what are the limits and purpouse of every build, If race or street, or even street with some nice traffic lights strip , but no more than that... Gas, NOS, etc... but taking on mind the real purpouse I think everything will be fine.

[Chryco Psycho]

I am building a 440 for a customer that had his 440 explode taking out the block using KB pistons , the $200-300 difference to get a forged piston will barely by a new gasket set to rebuid the engine never mind a new block just spend the extra  & then you  have no worrys
with stock manifolds you need a cam grind with a wider lobe separation , look for a grind like a K 56 or K 58 Engle with a 112 cl 

[73ChargerSE]

The KB's kinda scare me now.  Does anyone make a good, decently affordable piston for the 400's that'll raise the compression? Or am I better off getting regular flat tops?

[TylerCharger69]

I understand your being leery of KB pistons.   However, like I posted previously....all of the engines that I have disassembled sporting KB's were due to assembly error,  and all of them were caused by improper ring filing.  It will cause the top of the piston to break off and shatter and then cause valve damage  and most likely in some cases making the heads irrepairable.  I'm not sure if I agree with the KB design or not on higher comp pistons,  but all of the ones that were requested for me to install have not had any problems as of yet.   Basically....if you take the ring  straight out of the kit  and place it in the cylinder,  it will  fit  with very little gap.   But, once the engine heats up and runs,  the heat dissipation from that particular design causes the rings to expand  and not have any more room  which leads to piston failure.  Well...ring filer tools are somewhat cheap!!!

[Challenger340]

Fellas, The following are my opinions only, no slags intended.

Personally, I have NO problem with a KB Piston, in a NON Nitrous, NON BLOWER/BOOST, "STREET" application.
"IF" there was a reasonably priced forged out there, I would use it.
I PREFER FORGED TOO !  WHO WOULDN"T ?
But there "ain't", and the price and wait times, for a "Custom Piston" is tough to justify.

I've machined and built, upwards of 65 engines, all brands, in the last 2 yrs. alone, using the KB's in about 20 of them, and I've NEVER had a problem.

Granted, the other 45 engines or so, were done with Forged Pistons, but those were all above 500 horsepower, and I only use Forged Pistons for those applications.

Everything has it's "niche".  KB's have theirs. Street, pump gas, NON Nitrous or Boost.  If you keep it sane, you should never have a problem.

Personally, I've NEVER seen a KB Piston failure, that couldn't be traced back, to INCORRECT APPLICATION, TUNING, or MACHINING(not mine).

File the top Ring Endgap, make sure the shop you're using has a Torque-plate, and the mandrels to Pin-fit the Rod, and QUIT WORRY'ing about it !

Just my thoughts.

[TylerCharger69]

Well said Challenger 340!!

[73ChargerSE]

I'm looking at the Comp Cams XE275HL-10 because I can get it at my local speed shop.  The lift is a tad bit higher (.525) and the duration is 275/287 and the centerline is 110, like the K58.  Would this cam work like the Engle would? 

[Runner]

Fellas, The following are my opinions only, no slags intended.

Personally, I have NO problem with a KB Piston, in a NON Nitrous, NON BLOWER/BOOST, "STREET" application.
"IF" there was a reasonably priced forged out there, I would use it.
I PREFER FORGED TOO !  WHO WOULDN"T ?
But there "ain't", and the price and wait times, for a "Custom Piston" is tough to justify.

I've machined and built, upwards of 65 engines, all brands, in the last 2 yrs. alone, using the KB's in about 20 of them, and I've NEVER had a problem.

Granted, the other 45 engines or so, were done with Forged Pistons, but those were all above 500 horsepower, and I only use Forged Pistons for those applications.

Everything has it's "niche".  KB's have theirs. Street, pump gas, NON Nitrous or Boost.  If you keep it sane, you should never have a problem.

Personally, I've NEVER seen a KB Piston failure, that couldn't be traced back, to INCORRECT APPLICATION, TUNING, or MACHINING(not mine).

File the top Ring Endgap, make sure the shop you're using has a Torque-plate, and the mandrels to Pin-fit the Rod, and QUIT WORRY'ing about it !

Just my thoughts.

    i couldnt agree more.    in fact my machinest told me the same thing.    keep the ring gaps where they are supposed to be and your fine, try setting them up tight and be prepared for a piston failure.

[jg68]

Fellas, The following are my opinions only, no slags intended.

Personally, I have NO problem with a KB Piston, in a NON Nitrous, NON BLOWER/BOOST, "STREET" application.
"IF" there was a reasonably priced forged out there, I would use it.
I PREFER FORGED TOO !  WHO WOULDN"T ?
But there "ain't", and the price and wait times, for a "Custom Piston" is tough to justify.

I've machined and built, upwards of 65 engines, all brands, in the last 2 yrs. alone, using the KB's in about 20 of them, and I've NEVER had a problem.

Granted, the other 45 engines or so, were done with Forged Pistons, but those were all above 500 horsepower, and I only use Forged Pistons for those applications.

Everything has it's "niche".  KB's have theirs. Street, pump gas, NON Nitrous or Boost.  If you keep it sane, you should never have a problem.

Personally, I've NEVER seen a KB Piston failure, that couldn't be traced back, to INCORRECT APPLICATION, TUNING, or MACHINING(not mine).

File the top Ring Endgap, make sure the shop you're using has a Torque-plate, and the mandrels to Pin-fit the Rod, and QUIT WORRY'ing about it !

Just my thoughts.

    i couldnt agree more.    in fact my machinest told me the same thing.    keep the ring gaps where they are supposed to be and your fine, try setting them up tight and be prepared for a piston failure.

Same goes for the pistons themselves, i had 2 bad experiences with KBs, but it was machining error, they would set them up loose like a forged piston, no can do, my last KB build was a .060 360, i went with the 190s, set them up at a tight 1.1/2 thausandths, ran the top ring at .030 gap, second ring at .017, never ran hot, never used a drop of oil, ran it on 91 octane with 10.4 comp. & J heads, it was a screamer.

[Chryco Psycho]

What is the duration @ .050 on th eComp grind ?

[73ChargerSE]

What is the duration @ .050 on th eComp grind ?

231/237

[Chryco Psycho]

the K58 has 230* @ .050 so using the Comp will raise the rpm of the powerband by 400 rpm or so , the Engle has faster ramp speed

[Challenger340]

the K58 has 230* @ .050 so using the Comp will raise the rpm of the powerband by 400 rpm or so , the Engle has faster ramp speed

"all things being equal" a 10 deg. @ .050" duration increase in a cam on the Intake profile, moves the power band up about 250 rpm. ? , on hydraulics from what I've seen ?

I don't think a 231 intake cam profile with be 400 rpm higher than a 230 intake profile cam, "all things being equal". It's only "1" Intake degree ?
Did I read that right, or did I miss something ?
That Comp 231/237 is a medium ramp .904 profile. Rated 2000 - 5800 rpm. Standard, "gentle off the seat", then starts the high .904" rate later, for more peak lift. Lift is "usually" horsepower.
More lift, more power.

Fast ramp cams are great, but to really take advantage of them, proper seat angles need to be used, to try and initiate port flow "less violently". Cam overlap during Chamber scavenging with a fast ramp, "by itself", just doesn't make that much more power than the medium ramp series.

NOT that fast ramps won't make more power, THEY WILL. Just I haven't been able to find it. From my experience,  unless, I'm adding some proprietary valve grinds "too boot". ie; 51 degree seats @ higher lifts.

I fact, I found more horsepower on the Dyno using 1.6 rockers on "mushy" cams with regular 45 degree seats ! Better over-all power curves too. LOL !

I must be doing it all wrong !

Be careful of Cam break-in also, with the fast ramp Cams !
I made a set of 1.2 ratio shaft rockers I use for break-in on mopars, works great ! Saves having to remove the inner springs on Flat tappet Cam break-in.

just my opinion.  Bob out.

[73ChargerSE]

Well, my engine is going to start being assembled on Monday.  Should I use the 516 heads that are on the current motor, or the 346 heads that go with the motor at the shop?  What are the differences in the heads?

When I get the motor back, what do I have to do for break in? Anything special with this motor/cam/pistons?

What number oil pan came on these cars stock?  I have a 699 pan that is extra, and I'm not sure what is on it now.  What can I use?

[73ChargerSE]

Bueler?

[Chryco Psycho]

with hard seats installed both castings can use the same size valves , the big difference between the 2 castings is the combustion chamber , the smaller chamber in the 516 head will bump compression approx 1 point but offers the advantage of Quench if the piston is close enough to the head , basically the use of one head over the other depends on the compression ratio

[73ChargerSE]

I found out a place in Phoenix is actually rebuilding heads and selling them for a great price.  They have a lot of different castings.  What would be the best stock head choice I could go with.  I'm going to be running the KB240s and steel shim head gaskets.  Should I try for the 906's or a different casting?

[supserdave]

Any way you could mock the build up with the pistons before you get the heads? That way you could set your C.R. for sure.