Question about my build ::UPDATE:: Timing Help!!

[73ChargerSE]

I'm planning to send my engine out to get machined in the next few weeks.  I just sold my Coronet, so I'm in a little bit of money.  What my plans are with the engine are to go .30 over and use the Keith Black pistons to raise the compression up.  What sort of cam would be best with the overbore and raise in compression?  I have 346 heads, what can I do with these to make them flow a little better on the cheap?   I'm planning to go for some Eddy heads when I get a little bit of money again. Also, what exhaust size should I run, and will my HP manifolds cut it? Or should I just look into some headers?  Is anyone besides TTI making headers that fit well?  I'm mainly wanting a strong engine that will be streetable as well as be able to take it to the track once and a while.  Any help is greatly appreciated.

Edit: What would be a good gasket set for the engine, and should I get any special head gaskets?

[Challenger340]

Is it a 383 or 440 ?

[73ChargerSE]

Sorry, forgot to mention it's a 400.

[Chryco Psycho]

The stock manifolds will "cut it" if they are the HP manifolds
the cam choice would be totally different depending on igf you Want the manifolds to work or if they will be replaced with headers
installing the 1.81 exhaust valves & blending behind the seat & backcutting the valve will make gains in the heads or to go further you can pocket port using Mopars templates
I would recommend 2.5" exhaust
I use the Mopar steel shim head gaskets mostly it will max the compression as well , I use Fel Pro for the rest of the gaskets
stil not a fan of KB pistons but the good alternative seems to be discontinued

[firefighter3931]

  The piston selection for 400ci engines is not good. Personally, i would spend the extra $$ and purchase a custom lightweight forging from diamond racing.....well worth the money. 


Ron

[73ChargerSE]

I guess I can keep the HP manifolds as I dont want the hassle with headers.  I don't really have the money for a crazy expensive set of pistons, and I was going to go with the KB's because they are affordable and have the size I need.  What are the drawbacks to the KBs?  Should I do anything fancy with the exhaust? (h-pipe etc.)  And the head gaskets, I can use the 4.380 inch?

[TylerCharger69]

From experience that I've had with KB pistons is assembly errors.  The compression rings need to be file fitted, especially the top ring because of heat expansion issues in the design.  The most common error is, lots of people ASSUME that the rings that come with the kits are ready to install.   Not so.  They usually come with a sheet telling you what the compression rings need to be filed at (thousandths of an inch).  We did a 289 Mustang not long ago and two of the pistons grenaded because the rings weren't filed properly (not me...the people who did the build prior to having me do it.)  Thus, pretty much busting the top of the pistons off.   Upon reading the literature,  the measurement that the rings SHOULD HAVE been filed were .075.  I thought that seemed like a lot, but then realized the method to the madness as far as heat dissipation and expansion were concerned.   Engine has been running great for 2 years and counting now.   I, myself have not had any problems with KB products.  Nor have I had any issues with Wiseco either...but that's another topic.

[Nacho-RT74]

It looks not too much ppl likes the casted pistons... but if you thing stock 400 pistons are also casted as far I remember, then what's the problem ? I know we must know what are the limits and purpouse of every build, If race or street, or even street with some nice traffic lights strip , but no more than that... Gas, NOS, etc... but taking on mind the real purpouse I think everything will be fine.

[Chryco Psycho]

I am building a 440 for a customer that had his 440 explode taking out the block using KB pistons , the $200-300 difference to get a forged piston will barely by a new gasket set to rebuid the engine never mind a new block just spend the extra  & then you  have no worrys
with stock manifolds you need a cam grind with a wider lobe separation , look for a grind like a K 56 or K 58 Engle with a 112 cl 

[73ChargerSE]

The KB's kinda scare me now.  Does anyone make a good, decently affordable piston for the 400's that'll raise the compression? Or am I better off getting regular flat tops?

[TylerCharger69]

I understand your being leery of KB pistons.   However, like I posted previously....all of the engines that I have disassembled sporting KB's were due to assembly error,  and all of them were caused by improper ring filing.  It will cause the top of the piston to break off and shatter and then cause valve damage  and most likely in some cases making the heads irrepairable.  I'm not sure if I agree with the KB design or not on higher comp pistons,  but all of the ones that were requested for me to install have not had any problems as of yet.   Basically....if you take the ring  straight out of the kit  and place it in the cylinder,  it will  fit  with very little gap.   But, once the engine heats up and runs,  the heat dissipation from that particular design causes the rings to expand  and not have any more room  which leads to piston failure.  Well...ring filer tools are somewhat cheap!!!

[Challenger340]

Fellas, The following are my opinions only, no slags intended.

Personally, I have NO problem with a KB Piston, in a NON Nitrous, NON BLOWER/BOOST, "STREET" application.
"IF" there was a reasonably priced forged out there, I would use it.
I PREFER FORGED TOO !  WHO WOULDN"T ?
But there "ain't", and the price and wait times, for a "Custom Piston" is tough to justify.

I've machined and built, upwards of 65 engines, all brands, in the last 2 yrs. alone, using the KB's in about 20 of them, and I've NEVER had a problem.

Granted, the other 45 engines or so, were done with Forged Pistons, but those were all above 500 horsepower, and I only use Forged Pistons for those applications.

Everything has it's "niche".  KB's have theirs. Street, pump gas, NON Nitrous or Boost.  If you keep it sane, you should never have a problem.

Personally, I've NEVER seen a KB Piston failure, that couldn't be traced back, to INCORRECT APPLICATION, TUNING, or MACHINING(not mine).

File the top Ring Endgap, make sure the shop you're using has a Torque-plate, and the mandrels to Pin-fit the Rod, and QUIT WORRY'ing about it !

Just my thoughts.

[TylerCharger69]

Well said Challenger 340!!

[73ChargerSE]

I'm looking at the Comp Cams XE275HL-10 because I can get it at my local speed shop.  The lift is a tad bit higher (.525) and the duration is 275/287 and the centerline is 110, like the K58.  Would this cam work like the Engle would? 

[Runner]

Fellas, The following are my opinions only, no slags intended.

Personally, I have NO problem with a KB Piston, in a NON Nitrous, NON BLOWER/BOOST, "STREET" application.
"IF" there was a reasonably priced forged out there, I would use it.
I PREFER FORGED TOO !  WHO WOULDN"T ?
But there "ain't", and the price and wait times, for a "Custom Piston" is tough to justify.

I've machined and built, upwards of 65 engines, all brands, in the last 2 yrs. alone, using the KB's in about 20 of them, and I've NEVER had a problem.

Granted, the other 45 engines or so, were done with Forged Pistons, but those were all above 500 horsepower, and I only use Forged Pistons for those applications.

Everything has it's "niche".  KB's have theirs. Street, pump gas, NON Nitrous or Boost.  If you keep it sane, you should never have a problem.

Personally, I've NEVER seen a KB Piston failure, that couldn't be traced back, to INCORRECT APPLICATION, TUNING, or MACHINING(not mine).

File the top Ring Endgap, make sure the shop you're using has a Torque-plate, and the mandrels to Pin-fit the Rod, and QUIT WORRY'ing about it !

Just my thoughts.

    i couldnt agree more.    in fact my machinest told me the same thing.    keep the ring gaps where they are supposed to be and your fine, try setting them up tight and be prepared for a piston failure.

[jg68]

Fellas, The following are my opinions only, no slags intended.

Personally, I have NO problem with a KB Piston, in a NON Nitrous, NON BLOWER/BOOST, "STREET" application.
"IF" there was a reasonably priced forged out there, I would use it.
I PREFER FORGED TOO !  WHO WOULDN"T ?
But there "ain't", and the price and wait times, for a "Custom Piston" is tough to justify.

I've machined and built, upwards of 65 engines, all brands, in the last 2 yrs. alone, using the KB's in about 20 of them, and I've NEVER had a problem.

Granted, the other 45 engines or so, were done with Forged Pistons, but those were all above 500 horsepower, and I only use Forged Pistons for those applications.

Everything has it's "niche".  KB's have theirs. Street, pump gas, NON Nitrous or Boost.  If you keep it sane, you should never have a problem.

Personally, I've NEVER seen a KB Piston failure, that couldn't be traced back, to INCORRECT APPLICATION, TUNING, or MACHINING(not mine).

File the top Ring Endgap, make sure the shop you're using has a Torque-plate, and the mandrels to Pin-fit the Rod, and QUIT WORRY'ing about it !

Just my thoughts.

    i couldnt agree more.    in fact my machinest told me the same thing.    keep the ring gaps where they are supposed to be and your fine, try setting them up tight and be prepared for a piston failure.

Same goes for the pistons themselves, i had 2 bad experiences with KBs, but it was machining error, they would set them up loose like a forged piston, no can do, my last KB build was a .060 360, i went with the 190s, set them up at a tight 1.1/2 thausandths, ran the top ring at .030 gap, second ring at .017, never ran hot, never used a drop of oil, ran it on 91 octane with 10.4 comp. & J heads, it was a screamer.

[Chryco Psycho]

What is the duration @ .050 on th eComp grind ?

[73ChargerSE]

What is the duration @ .050 on th eComp grind ?

231/237

[Chryco Psycho]

the K58 has 230* @ .050 so using the Comp will raise the rpm of the powerband by 400 rpm or so , the Engle has faster ramp speed

[Challenger340]

the K58 has 230* @ .050 so using the Comp will raise the rpm of the powerband by 400 rpm or so , the Engle has faster ramp speed

"all things being equal" a 10 deg. @ .050" duration increase in a cam on the Intake profile, moves the power band up about 250 rpm. ? , on hydraulics from what I've seen ?

I don't think a 231 intake cam profile with be 400 rpm higher than a 230 intake profile cam, "all things being equal". It's only "1" Intake degree ?
Did I read that right, or did I miss something ?
That Comp 231/237 is a medium ramp .904 profile. Rated 2000 - 5800 rpm. Standard, "gentle off the seat", then starts the high .904" rate later, for more peak lift. Lift is "usually" horsepower.
More lift, more power.

Fast ramp cams are great, but to really take advantage of them, proper seat angles need to be used, to try and initiate port flow "less violently". Cam overlap during Chamber scavenging with a fast ramp, "by itself", just doesn't make that much more power than the medium ramp series.

NOT that fast ramps won't make more power, THEY WILL. Just I haven't been able to find it. From my experience,  unless, I'm adding some proprietary valve grinds "too boot". ie; 51 degree seats @ higher lifts.

I fact, I found more horsepower on the Dyno using 1.6 rockers on "mushy" cams with regular 45 degree seats ! Better over-all power curves too. LOL !

I must be doing it all wrong !

Be careful of Cam break-in also, with the fast ramp Cams !
I made a set of 1.2 ratio shaft rockers I use for break-in on mopars, works great ! Saves having to remove the inner springs on Flat tappet Cam break-in.

just my opinion.  Bob out.

[73ChargerSE]

Well, my engine is going to start being assembled on Monday.  Should I use the 516 heads that are on the current motor, or the 346 heads that go with the motor at the shop?  What are the differences in the heads?

When I get the motor back, what do I have to do for break in? Anything special with this motor/cam/pistons?

What number oil pan came on these cars stock?  I have a 699 pan that is extra, and I'm not sure what is on it now.  What can I use?

[73ChargerSE]

Bueler?

[Chryco Psycho]

with hard seats installed both castings can use the same size valves , the big difference between the 2 castings is the combustion chamber , the smaller chamber in the 516 head will bump compression approx 1 point but offers the advantage of Quench if the piston is close enough to the head , basically the use of one head over the other depends on the compression ratio

[73ChargerSE]

I found out a place in Phoenix is actually rebuilding heads and selling them for a great price.  They have a lot of different castings.  What would be the best stock head choice I could go with.  I'm going to be running the KB240s and steel shim head gaskets.  Should I try for the 906's or a different casting?

[supserdave]

Any way you could mock the build up with the pistons before you get the heads? That way you could set your C.R. for sure.

[73ChargerSE]

Well one of the piston skirts was found broken when my machinist was going to assemble the motor.  The pistons are backordered so it will be about 10 days or so before I get those back, but other than that it will be ready to be built.  Aren't the KB240s supposed to be 9.5 to 1?

[supserdave]

Supposed to be and are could be two different stories. Have him measure how far they are in the hole before you order a set of heads.

[73ChargerSE]

The engine builder measured the distance down the cylinder and it is .012".  I think I am going to go with a 516 head. Would this be a good choice?

[firefighter3931]

The engine builder measured the distance down the cylinder and it is .012".  I think I am going to go with a 516 head. Would this be a good choice?

Probably not....the closed chamber head will push your compression ratio over the 10:1 range so it won't be pump gas friendly. The open chamber heads will keep it in the low 9's. 


Ron

[73ChargerSE]

So should I go with 346's like I have?  Or would another head be better?

[73ChargerSE]

I picked up the engine today.  Here's the pictures of it.  I still need some opinions on what heads to get.  But finally, I've been waiting 2 years to see this engine go to the shop.

[firefighter3931]

So should I go with 346's like I have?  Or would another head be better?

The 346's are fine and have the flame hardened exhaust seats for unleaded fuel. If you're going to use a cam with more than .510 lift then have the guides trimmed down for incresed retainer clearance. 



Ron


Ps. Engine looks great ! 

[73ChargerSE]

I've got a .525 lift cam in it.  Will I need to change the valve springs at all to match the cam?  How can the guides be trimmed?  I'm guessing a dremel wouldn't work.

[firefighter3931]

I've got a .525 lift cam in it.  Will I need to change the valve springs at all to match the cam?  How can the guides be trimmed?  I'm guessing a dremel wouldn't work.

The Comp Cams #911 spring is what you need for that cam....get them if you haven't allready. 

The guides need to be cut by the machine shop and a positive type valve seal will need to be installed at the same time. The machinist working on your heads will be familiar with this procedure. Have the valve springs checked for installed height and the correct seat pressure....this is very important for cam longevity. 


Ron

[73ChargerSE]

If I were to go with Edelbrock heads, would I still have to change the springs and cut the guides?  What would my compression be with the 84cc and the 88cc?

[firefighter3931]

If I were to go with Edelbrock heads, would I still have to change the springs and cut the guides? 

No mods required for that cam with the e-heads.....lots of retainer to guide clearance and the springs are perfect for the XEHL grind. 

What would my compression be with the 84cc and the 88cc?

I would definately use the closed chamber 84cc heads for tight quench. I need the dome/relief volume and bore diameter on your pistons to calculate the static compression. The piston to deck measurement is .012,  correct ?



Ron

[73ChargerSE]

The bore is .030 over, so it would be a 4.372, correct? The piston head volume is +5.00 cc.  Yes it is .012 for the piston to deck.

[firefighter3931]

The bore is .030 over, so it would be a 4.372, correct? The piston head volume is +5.00 cc.  Yes it is .012 for the piston to deck.

Yep, 4.372 is correct on the bore diameter.

Using a .040 compressed gasket and 84cc closed chamber, .012 piston to deck and 5cc dome... i come up with 10.05:1 static compression.

With an 80cc chamber it works out to 10.47:1.....this would require some head surfacing to reduce the chamber volume.


Effective quench falls between .040 & .060 piston to head clearance so you're right in the "zone" which is where you want to be.....yours would end up being .052 using the Felpro # 1009 head gasket. 



Ron

[Nacho-RT74]

You think I'll be closer to that Compresion ? I'll use metallick felpro gasket and 452 heads milled down

[73ChargerSE]

When getting the positive seals, what size should I be getting?

[73ChargerSE]

Well, I bit the bullet and got the 440source heads.  Should I still be using the Felpro #1009? I had ordered a set of Felpro gaskets (KS2110) What head gaskets come in these kits?  I also have a set of new .020 Mopar head gaskets (steel shim)  Would it be good to use these?  Sorry for all the questions, first engine build of my life.

Thanks!
Paul

[firefighter3931]

Well, I bit the bullet and got the 440source heads.  Should I still be using the Felpro #1009? I had ordered a set of Felpro gaskets (KS2110) What head gaskets come in these kits?  I also have a set of new .020 Mopar head gaskets (steel shim)  Would it be good to use these?  Sorry for all the questions, first engine build of my life.

Thanks!
Paul

Paul,

use the felpro 1009's...steel shim gakets are a no-no with aluminum heads. 

Good score on the 440 source heads 


Ron

[1BAD68]

you guys are freaking me out on ring end gap!
I just installed the KB 847 forged stroker pistons in my block and according to their end gap factor sheet, the top ring should be .01576 gapped.
I put the top rings in the cylinder to check and they were .023, so there was nothing I could do but install them.
Someone tell me thats not too tight?

[73ChargerSE]

Thanks Ron for all your help with this matter. If you ever come down to AZ in 2 years (not 21 yet) I'll buy you a beer or 3. 

[firefighter3931]

Thanks Ron for all your help with this matter. If you ever come down to AZ in 2 years (not 21 yet) I'll buy you a beer or 3. 

I'm in...see ya in a couple of years !   

Any questions on assembly or tuning just ask 



Ron

[73ChargerSE]

I may need a tutorial on how to break it in.  What fluids etc.

Also, will my 650 CFM Edelbrock deliver enough fuel for this?

[firefighter3931]

I may need a tutorial on how to break it in.  What fluids etc.

Also, will my 650 CFM Edelbrock deliver enough fuel for this?

Paul, get yourself a Napa gold oil filter and some Shell rotella dieasel oil for the breakin. You should also use the Comp Cams additive for the initial fireup and on each oilchange. This additive will keep your engine happy....use it ! 


On that type of build, a performance dual plane intake maniold (Performer rpm) and a 750 cfm carb would be my first choice. The Proform Carbs are awesome and easy to tune. The edelbrock carbs are not set up for warmed up engine builds and are a bitch to tune. 



Ron

[73ChargerSE]

I've got a Performer RPM, looks like I'll have to shell out money for another carb.  Oh boy this just keeps better 

I could probably get the Rotella for pretty cheap (I work at an International trucks dealership) so I'm good to go on that.

[Steve P.]

Here's a link to a good tech bulletin from Comp Cams.

   :   http://www.compcams.com/information/whatsnew/NewsDetails.asp?ListHistoryID=1821071676

Also a link to Summit for the lube:

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=CCA%2D159%2D12&N=700+115&autoview=sku

[73ChargerSE]

Basics:
400 bored .30
KB Hypereutetic 9.5 to 1
.525 Lift Cam 275/287 Duration 110 Centerline 231/237 at .050
440Source Stealth Heads
Static compression around 10.05 to 1
Mopar Performance 1.5 ratio roller rockers
Edelbrock Performer RPM
Holley 750 Double Pumper

Found a killer deal on a TCI Streetfighter, brand new, $50.  I need to know what torque converter to get so I can start putting this motor back in.  My current tire size is 215/75R14. My tire size matters in torque converter selection, correct?  I am either going to be running 3.91 gears or 3.23 gears, depending on if the 3.23 gears are in good shape.  I'm looking for a good street converter that will see the track maybe twice a year. If I change my tire size will I have to deal with the torque converter again?  Will the gears affect my selection?

Thanks!
Paul

[73ChargerSE]

I found a deal on a Hughes 2500 stall converter.  Would this be about right or would I need more stall speed?

[firefighter3931]

The Hughes converter is a better choice than the TCI...go for the Hughes 

Paul, test fit the head gaskets before you install them....pay close attention to the chambers and make sure there is no overhang. The first batch of 440 source heads had some issues with gasket overhang.  440 source sells a larger diameter ROL brand headgasket that will work if there are issues with the Felpros. 

I would also recommend having the heads looked at at your machine shop. Have the guides and retainers/locks looked at closely 


Ron

[73ChargerSE]

Sorry, was referring to the tranny that I got for $50.  So the Hughes would be the right stall speed for me? I noticed there was a little bit of gasket overhang, but I'm needing to take the heads off anyways for pushrod clearancing, so I'm glad I know now.  Can I get the ROL gaskets locally? (Chain stores like NAPA etc.)  The guy with the converter wants $150 for it.

Also, what is the number for the spark plugs I need for these heads?

Thanks!

[firefighter3931]

The Hughes 2500 stall will be fine 

The ROL's are available through 440 source and should be available locally....just pull the part number from the 440source website and call around. 

There was a thread on the correct plugs for the Stealth heads awhile back. I posted a link to an NGK v-groove plug that will work fine, but i don't remember the plug # off hand. 

You could also pm Mally69 for the part number or do a search. 


Ron

[SeattleCharger]

     great thread, lots of info

[metallicareload99]

I think these are the right spark plugs for most applications with the 440 Source Heads, I figure I have almost 10 to 1 compression with my 440 and will run the these NGK plugs.

NGK Spark Plugs 4291

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=NGK%2D4291&FROM=MG

I don't have access to the Champion plugs that 440 Source sells at the moment (in storage), but these NGK's seem to be dimensionally identical to the Champions.  I only got the Champions to compare to.  I have yet to run the 440 Source Heads

[firefighter3931]

I think these are the right spark plugs for most applications with the 440 Source Heads, I figure I have almost 10 to 1 compression with my 440 and will run the these NGK plugs.

NGK Spark Plugs 4291

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=NGK%2D4291&FROM=MG

I don't have access to the Champion plugs that 440 Source sells at the moment (in storage), but these NGK's seem to be dimensionally identical to the Champions.  I only got the Champions to compare to.  I have yet to run the 440 Source Heads

Yes, those are the correct plugs 



Ron

[73ChargerSE]

The Build Recap:
Basics:
400 bored .30
KB Hypereutetic 9.5 to 1
.525 Lift Cam 275/287 Duration 110 Centerline 231/237 at .050
440Source Stealth Heads
Static compression around 10.05 to 1
Mopar Performance 1.5 ratio roller rockers
Edelbrock Performer RPM
Holley 750

I was having a misfire problem in my no. 1 cylinder which I believe I fixed.  Got a new Mopar Performance Orange Box because my other one was toast.  When I drove it after the misfire fix, it was pretty shaky and didn't have much power.  It's now backfiring through the carb.  What can I do to remedy this?  Would this be a timing issue?  My plugs were tan with one being somewhat wet.  I've tried 10* and 15* initial timing and it all seemed to fall into place with vacuum, etc. Even then it was doing the same thing.  I'm at my wits end with this and want to be able to drive it.

Thanks!
Paul

[Harlow]

Not sure how much help I can lend. I'll give you a bump atleast. Does it backfire only when you step on it? It could be a lean issue at WOT. Did you have the wires off when you fixed the #1 cylinder misfire? I'd double check the firing order to make sure you got them back on there correctly. Good luck.

[73ChargerSE]

Firing order is correct.  I set it to 12* initial timing and it still doesn't want to keep running.  I've tried using manifold vacuum, ported vacuum and everything.  It's still popping through the carb and now through the exhaust as well.  Can anyone help me with this?

[firefighter3931]

Try bumping the timing up to 18* and see how it runs. You might need to re-curve your distributor. Disconnect the vacuum advance and make sure all the ports are blocked off. Put a vacuum guage on it and see how much vacuum you have at idle.

It could be a timing issue but also a lean condition (vacuum leak)



Ron

[mauve66]

i didn't read all the comments hear but do you have a pressure gauge on the fuel pump?? if the pressure is erratic it will give you fits trying to run it, found that out the hard way when i sold my 6pak, new 4bbl ran the same then after the new fuel pump its fine

[maxwellwedge]

Did you do a compression test? Almost sounds like bad valve(s).
What is your vacuum like?