Market may not be as out of control as we think

[dkn1997]

I just looked on ebay for 68 charger completed purchases.  I did not find a single NON R/T car that went for more than 15k. 

I think low 30's was the most any REAL R/T went for.  I never go by current auctions.  I check the completed to see what they really get for them.

still not a buyers market, but I actually thought it was a lot worse.

[Jon Smith]

yeah I've noticed that, theres all these cars on ebay for silly money but they hardly ever sell, at least not on ebay UK

[no318]

It's muscle cars in general.  I picked up a "deals on wheels" type of magazine this week.  I'll bet there are 10% in there that were priced to sell.  Just because they are advertised at some price, doesn't mean they will sell. 

[472 R/T SE]

Calm before the storm, happens every year.  The circus always brings the prices back up to the insanity level. 

[Ghoste]

Agreed.  Most of the cars for sale right now are there because the owner must sell.  The get rich quick artists and the non committed sellers are waiting those precious few weeks for the circus to justify everyone coughing up a quarter to see their bearded fat lady.

[Hemidoug]

Just remember guys...A car's selling price is only as high as what someone is willing to pay......There are still a lot of affordable projects around, ya just have to look a little.

[41husk]

I agree there are still deals out there but they are getting harder and harder to come by.

[BigBlockSam]

I agree there are still deals out

they are very hard to find .

[Arigmaster]

The circus doesn't start until Spring....  This time of year it doesn't matter if it's a muscle car or not...It's just plain slow.

[dkn1997]

yeah, it is slow with everyone spending cash on christmas, etc..  but my point was that people look on ebay and freak out when they see the asking prices.  The completed auctions really tell the true story.

[Charger-Bodie]

i hope the market goes way down so that im not tempted to sell yet another i hate when monry talks so loudly

[Hemidoug]

i hope the market goes way down so that im not tempted to sell yet another i hate when monry talks so loudly

It will NEVER go down. It might back off a bit, but the prices that we see are here to stay. Reality is what it is....... It's sitll going to cost the same for parts and restoration. That is one of the factors that is driving the prices. It's not all Barret Jackson.....

[Ghoste]

Never say never.  As the boomers die off all it takes is a good market crash and a lack of well heeled kids coming along behind us who want these cars and they can back waaay up in price.

[69hemi]

With the Dow over 12K Muscle Car prices have slowed way down.  Since Mopar was the last of the big three to get a boost their prices are falling slowest.  At the last Mecum Classic Auction up in Chicago a whole hell of a lot of Muscle that would have sold in a snap 6 months before went home in their trailers due to not meeting reserves.  Since the Market is being kind to investors again it will drive the speculators out and just leave us collectors and fans in the market once again.  This time though the starting entry will not be as cheap as before but not as high as some of the nutty stuff of last spring and winter.

[Charger-Bodie]

With the Dow over 12K Muscle Car prices have slowed way down.  Since Mopar was the last of the big three to get a boost their prices are falling slowest.  At the last Mecum Classic Auction up in Chicago a whole hell of a lot of Muscle that would have sold in a snap 6 months before went home in their trailers due to not meeting reserves.  Since the Market is being kind to investors again it will drive the speculators out and just leave us collectors and fans in the market once again.  This time though the starting entry will not be as cheap as before but not as high as some of the nutty stuff of last spring and winter.

[hotrod98]

Most of the guys around here that have invested in musclecars are being patient. They're not going to roll over and give their cars away. They feel  that the market will turn back their way eventually. I still don't foresee any bargains. I think we might see clean 71 big block cudas for $75 instead of $95k. Still out of the reach of most newbies. I just had a collector/investor offer me 45k for my 71 cuda clone, so they're still buying.

[472 R/T SE]

The circus doesn't start until Spring.... 

The Scottsdale NO RESERVE auction is less than 3 weeks away, starting January 13th.

[01MOPAR]

if your worried about value,watch the barrett-jackson scottsdale auction in january.they are going to have tons of mopars ! check out the list at
www.barrett-jackson.com

[41husk]

Does BJ really effect the average car?  I think they are mostly very restored rare are rare clones, targeting the very wealthy invester, not the average joe enthusiast.

[Hemidoug]

Does BJ really effect the average car?  I think they are mostly very restored rare are rare clones, targeting the very wealthy invester, not the average joe enthusiast.

It trickles down some. How much is anybodys guess. I don't think it affects things on the lower end. You can still get into good projects below 2K and into good cars for around 20K.

[Ghoste]

I think it affects it enormously.  Everyone with a television and an old car has seen it and decided that old 68 Fury out behind the barn is their ticket to early retirement.
Hemmings has made a magazine that is largely about musclecar auctions and Collector Car and Barrett-Jackson magazine are very much about auctions.  I agree there are still deals out there, but it is much more common to hear "I saw one one just like that sell for $XXXXXXXX.00 on that tv auction", than some of the other old value inflating phrases we used to hear.

[Hemidoug]

I think it affects it enormously.  Everyone with a television and an old car has seen it and decided that old 68 Fury out behind the barn is their ticket to early retirement.
Hemmings has made a magazine that is largely about musclecar auctions and Collector Car and Barrett-Jackson magazine are very much about auctions.  I agree there are still deals out there, but it is much more common to hear "I saw one one just like that sell for $XXXXXXXX.00 on that tv auction", than some of the other old value inflating phrases we used to hear.

See my first quote.....

Just remember guys...A car's selling price is only as high as what someone is willing to pay......There are still a lot of affordable projects around, ya just have to look a little.

It takes a BUYER to complete the transaction.... The guy with the old Fury can ask 1 Mil, but he won't sell it at that price. He will become that cars owner for life. NOTHING sells if you can't find a willing buyer!

[41husk]

Exactly, you can ask what you want but until someone pays that it aint worth it!

[six-tee-nine]

Ok but on the otherhand, when every site that has muscle car ads on them shows prices up to 20 K for a rolling shell, that means that some day someone will actually buy that car......i guess

I'm looking at the market since 2 years now and i've seen more Mopars passing buy for extreme prices than the opposite......
I hope to purchase a Charger somewhere next year but if it has to be 15K for a rotten shell or nothing i guess it will be nothing

[6pkrunner]

As long as there are guys remembering their glory days and either trying to recapture their youth or buy a youth they couldn't afford at the time, the cars will remain high. This is just cyclic with the decades of cars involved. When the guys who were in their teens in the 1940's made money and got established, they then bought the 40 cars during the early 1960s. The next guys went after the 1950s cars in the late 60s and early 70s. remember when a 55-56-57 Chevy was a goldmine? not so much anymore as those that wanted them are dying and the estates are freeing them up. Given the boom of rich folk in the last 20 years now its the guys from the 60s snagging their dream cars. Wait until they start dying off and scoop up the deals.

[41husk]

Im just saying there are still deals out there.

[MichaelRW]

Once the market reaches a certain saturation point and that is coming soon, the money will stay in the blue chip cars, i.e., the ones that are rare with documentation and numbers matching. The clones will take a hit though.

[Ghoste]

And the clones I think, are the ones that really piss me off.  Not the people building them for their own enjoyment (I've done it myself) but the ones who are doing expressly to cash in and the fools who pay them for it.
Yes, yes, it's all good marketing and hail to the great gods of capitalism and all that crap but I still reserve the right to whine about it.

[MichaelRW]

And the clones I think, are the ones that really piss me off.  Not the people building them for their own enjoyment (I've done it myself) but the ones who are doing expressly to cash in and the fools who pay them for it.
Yes, yes, it's all good marketing and hail to the great gods of capitalism and all that crap but I still reserve the right to whine about it.

I agree. The clones are going to be problems a few years down the road when the "facts" get a little fuzzy. Some guys are going to get burned big time.

[dkn1997]

The fact that clones are getting big money pisses me off to no end.

sometimes, it seems to me that there are almost no small block or /6 mopars for sale any more, every ya hoo and retard has dumped a wheezing 7:1 compression 440 into them and tripled the asking price.

[Hemidoug]

The fact that clones are getting big money pisses me off to no end.

sometimes, it seems to me that there are almost no small block or /6 mopars for sale any more, every ya hoo and retard has dumped a wheezing 7:1 compression 440 into them and tripled the asking price.

I agree, but you have to remember that the same amount of money goes into fixing up a clone as does an original car. Clones are great hot rods, you can beat the snot out of them without the guilt. I do agree that the flippers out there have been making way more then they should be on clones. Too many eager buyers.. The clones are going to take the biggest hit.

[41husk]

Thats true, I was thinking about doing a 57 Imperial a few years back, it cost more to restore because parts were even harder to get than Charger stuff qand when done did not have a good resale, infact I saw a finished 57 for 19k last month, it would have cost me far more to do the one I was looking at.

[Ghoste]

While it may be true that it costs as much to fix a clone as a pedigreed car, the fact is that a lot of them lately are trying to get pedigreed money or as close as they can.  Do you expect to pay nearly as much for cubic zirconium as a real diamond?
Perhaps part of what pisses me off is that a lot of them shouldn't be called clones because like dkn1997 mentioned, many of them just have a quickie engine swap and some Year One repro badges and suddenly they are an RT clone.  Clone implies an exact duplicate not a pale imitation.
A fool and his money I guess.

[MichaelRW]

While we're on this topic of where the market is now, I just read in the current Old Cars Weekly paper that a 1970 Charger R/T, 390hp, 4 speed, #2 condition SOLD for $98,500. That seems like quite a premium for the 3 - 2 barrels. This was at an auction in Dallas, TX last month.

[66mopar]

Has anyone else noticed how many of the muscle cars are no sales at auctions lately. I'm sure there will be more than one seller with a planted bidder in the audience at BJ ready to bid on their car if the price is to low.

I was around in the late eighties when the 57 chevy convertibles were going for $100,000 now I see the same cars selling between 50 to 60 thousand. Now 50 or 60 thousand isn't cheap but still someone lost money. I wonder if history could be repeating itself? 

The people that paid more for clones than what the original cars are the ones that will loose in the end. I don't see anything wrong with upgrading a car to be more appealing or have an upgraded performance package I have done the same thing to a few cars myself  Any person that has been around cars for a long time knows better than to pay more for a clone (fake) than the original.

Govier will be busy sorting though all of the clones.

[Ghoste]

Yeah, well, auction houses and big collectors are both paying GG to fly around to some of these things and lay his hands upon the real cars for official consecration so he should have a few of them already sorted.

[dkn1997]

While it may be true that it costs as much to fix a clone as a pedigreed car, the fact is that a lot of them lately are trying to get pedigreed money or as close as they can.  Do you expect to pay nearly as much for cubic zirconium as a real diamond?
Perhaps part of what pisses me off is that a lot of them shouldn't be called clones because like dkn1997 mentioned, many of them just have a quickie engine swap and some Year One repro badges and suddenly they are an RT clone.  Clone implies an exact duplicate not a pale imitation.
A fool and his money I guess.

exactly, ghoste....you see cars that are really no better than project cars, and they throw in a $500.00 440 that they got out of a newport, ie: low performance, and all of the sudden the price doubles.  again, it only doubles if the seller pays.  plus buying off of ebay you will pay ultra premium prices.  shop locally and you can do much better, but you gotta be patient. 

whoever said that there are a lot of auctions that end in no sale, especially on ebay, is right.  if you search 68 charger completed items, about 40%  did not sell, so not everyone is getting what they ask for

[Ghoste]

There are a LOT of no sales at the live ones as well.  I do some part time work for one of them and I stated it here before, but there is an enormous amount of smoke and mirrors going on that people just never see.  Even some of the sales are really no sales.
With all the record "sales" at B-J, has it never occurred to anyone that not to long ago Craig Jackson started collecting Mopars?  How lucky for him that he got in before the record prices huh?
The halo effect doesn't just apply to showrooms and motorsports.