Curing Wheel Hop - final update - FIXED!

[firefighter3931]

Got the quote from ESPO: $190 pr + $55 S/H

I think you found your new springs ! 



Ron

[471_Magnum]

As you will see on the video I posted elsewhere, I'm still dealing with wheel hop.

I haven't pulled the trigger on the new springs yet, mostly because I'm not certain they will fix my problem, but I'm also waiting for the next billing cycle on the Master Card (rough Christmas).

Anyway, today I rechecked the pinion to driveshaft angle. With the 2 degree shims, I'm at 2.5 degrees down.

I've got some 4 degree shims. Should I try them, or is that a waste of time? I'm thinking they will put me near 5 degrees, which is a lot for a mostly street driven car.

If I go with new springs, I plan to go with ESPOs equivalent of the MP XHD springs. Should I go with stock height, or plus 1 or 2 (at extra cost)? I'm thinking fresh springs are probably worth an inch or so even at "stock" height. That said, some extra height would help with the pinion angle. I don't want the car to look "jacked-up" though.

[firefighter3931]

Jim, i would just go with the Espo springs at stock height. Adjust the pinion angle when installing them to 5* nose down and set the snubber 1.5in from the floor. Those old springs are tired, you have a Tq monster stroker and some sticky tires. Pretty much a no brainer.

Sorry to hear about the Credit Card Hangover....there's a lot of that going around. 



Ron

[471_Magnum]

Came across the ad for the "Ground Pounder" package in Mopar Muscle. Looked like just the type set-up I need to get my wheel hop under control.

Checked it out on Just Suspensions website: http://www.justsuspension.com/groundpounder.htm

$1000!!!

Holy smoke! I expected a price tag of maybe half that. Seems a bit over-priced for a set of four KYB shocks, some brackets, hardware and leaf springs. In the end, all you've netted is an additional pair of KYB shocks.

For pretty much the same money, you can get the CalTracs set-up with springs and shocks, albeit maybe not as streetable.

I'd like to see them sell just the shock mounts, bushings and hardware. I could source the rest myself for a lot less than a grand.

[Chryco Psycho]

you could install ladderbars for less & that will kill wheel hop !!

[BrianShaughnessy]

I don't wheel hop but then again I haven't gotten my car to hook up w/ the old bfg's either in spite of the caltracs.   I'll know  more when I put the ET's on it in the spring.

But in a related post somebody was asking about the spring eye bushings and it reminded me that I have the solid 1.5" bushing that work with R/T springs.   Being as your car isn't an r/t... you probably have the 2" old rubber jobs on the non r/t springs.

I'm fine with my ride height as is w/ the R/T springs which is why I never got the caltrac springs.   But I'd just as soon use the caltracs as they're much more consistent than I've seen most once a year drag racers like me run with pinion snubbers.   And it goes straight also.

Um... what was I talking about   

Edit... oh yeah...   I think caltracs are very streetable with stock r/t springs.      I can't speak for their glass springs myself.    They don't recommend using SS springs with caltracs anyway.

[andy74]

whats wrong with the mopar springs?i need to replace my rears this spring,and they seem pretty good price wise,are they crap?

[Ghoste]

They have a very bad reputation for losing their camber in a short time.  Many folks will tell you they have had no problems but it seems like a great deal more can report of them going bad quickly.

[471_Magnum]

I've got the 6/7 leaf springs on mine, but the bushings are shot. (on a side note, I don't consider it to be a clone. Nowhere is there an "R/T" on the car).

I got some additional info from Just Suspension:

Just Suspension will sell the Ground Pounder package as components.

The horizontal shocks, mounts and hardware are $299. This is the basic "ground pounder".

Other items in the package individually are priced as follows:
Shock plates $170
KYB shocks $80
U bolts $40
HD Poly shackles $99
Springs $399

I don't want to bash on Just Suspension since they are stepping up and offering a new product, but it seems their pricing is a bit steep across the board.

The basic Ground Pounder seems to be priced competitively with the offerings from Calvert Racing (CalTracs) and Competition Engineering (Slide-A-Link), but I don't think it's an "apples to apples" comparison.

The other components can certainly be sourced elsewhere for substantially less if you wanted or needed the entire package.

I'd sure like to see how this system compares performance-wise to the proven set-ups already out there before dropping 300 bucks, let alone a grand.

[BrianShaughnessy]

"clone" reference deleted.    Sorry... my mistake. 

[471_Magnum]

No sweat. It's not that I get offended by the "clone" reference.

The only reason I didn't just let it pass is that if I were to build/own a clone, it would be much more convincing. My car makes for a half-ass clone at best, since the only thing that references an R/T is the 70-style stripe that was purposely chosen because it doesn't say "R/T".

Now back to our regularly scheduled program.

The Ground Pounder carries some appeal for me because I don't want to hook too hard, which the Caltracs or Slide-A-Link might do. It's primary function is to dampen the spring wrap that in turn causes axle hop. The Caltracs and Slide-A-Link actually harness the spring wrap to load the tires harder.

In my case, the clutch and differential are probably overmatched at this point.  I purposely selected the Nitto Drags over some of the stickier drag radials. I wanted to allow for some spin and spare the rest of my drivetrain. Unfortunately, instead of spin, I got hop.

I just can't get past the price tag on the Ground Pounder. Cut the price in half and I'd be tempted.

Here's another idea bouncing around in my head:
After closely inspecting my springs and discovering the woeful condition of the bushings, I'm thinking maybe I should start with some poly bushings and new shocks. If that doesn't improve the problem, I'll buck up either for springs, or one of the other traction aids.

[andy74]

i think you have the right idea,get the bushings and shocks handled first,and see how the car acts.you will probably be in the same boat i am and still need new springs(but maybe youll get lucky?)i knowi am following your post to see what ill end up doing in the long run myself,so keep it coming!

[471_Magnum]

My ESPO springs arrived Thursday. Got them installed today.

I went back to my 2 degree shims, swapping out the 4 degree shims.

Car sits about 1" higher now, but I expect it to settle a bit. I'll recheck the pinion angle once it's had a chance to settle.

Went for a quick test drive. I did a couple of hard launches. There was still a hint of wheel hop, but not quite as bad.

Next step is a set of Rancho RS9000 adjustable shocks. I came across a slightly used set on eBay. Don't have them yet.

The ESPO springs are a bit different than the Mopar springs. Lengths of the leafs are different. Most notably, the sixth leaf is a half leaf on both sides. The originals are full leafs. The RH seventh leaf is a half leaf on both. In addition, the ESPO springs have a 2" front bushing and the original is 1.75".

Not that craftmanship is particularly important on a leaf spring, but the originals just look to be a little better put together.

I had a couple of somewhat scary discoveries during the removal of the old springs:
The nuts on the LH shackels were not much more than finger tight. These weren't lock nuts like on the new shackels. Somehow they stayed put all this time.
The RH front eye-bolt wasn't tight either. This is what gave me the false impression the bushing was shot.

By the way, the old springs are for sale. I won't ship them, but if you're in the neighborhood, drop me a PM and I'll quote you a price.

[471_Magnum]

Friday night I installed a set of Rancho 9000 adjustable shock to replace my aged KYBs.

I picked up a used set off ebay. Got them for half the price of new.

The particular shocks I got are 1" longer than stock (p/n 99116). The bushings needed to be modified as well. Had to open them slightly and put a sleeve in the top bushing.

For base line, I set the shocks at "5".

Saturday I went for a spin. Car felt slightly stiffer. The suspension didn't bottom out over a notorious dip in the road that had jarred my kidneys in the past.

Road and tires were fairly cold during my launches (ambient temp in the high 30s). Did a quick burnout to warm the tires a bit. On my test lanches, it would spin a bit out of the hole. It still hopped pretty good on the 1-2 shift, although maybe not quite as bad as before.

Before my next test, I'll turn the shocks all the way to "9". If that don't get it, I'm not sure what's next.

Our overzealous highway department dumped salt on the roads today after a light dusting of snow, so it could be a while before I get out again.

[Steve P.]

I would not put the GROUND POUNDER on a lawn mower..  It took me about 1/2 second to see it's biggest flaw. Those extra shocks and brackets LOSE you about 3 inches of tire.   


Modified as I am boing glind and aslo hvae a bit fo disxlia..   

[Ghoste]

He's got the new springs on there Steve, if shock tuning doesn't get it our traction challenged friend may need to invest in something a little more complex. (I don't like the ground pounder either, it looks cumbersome to me)

[471_Magnum]

Actually, the ground pounder shock mounts directly over the spring. The pictures on the website are a little deceptive. There would be no loss in tire clearance.

[Ghoste]

So where is the other shock running to?  Is it up in the front spring eye?

[471_Magnum]

So where is the other shock running to?  Is it up in the front spring eye?

The shocks go to the rear.

[Ghoste]

It still looks awkward to me for some reason but I'm sure as hell no genius.  Are there any real world reports coming in on them yet?

[471_Magnum]

Send me $300 bucks and I'll give you a real world report.

On a side note, winter has firmly set in down here. The groundhog says spring is right around the corner, but there is a ton of salt on the road and no spring showers in foreseeable future to wash the salt away. Got the shocks turned-up, but no opportunity for a test drive.

[471_Magnum]

Had some nice weather today. Got the Charger out for the first time in about two weeks.

Set the Ranchos to "7" and did a couple of hard launches. I still got some hop in first gear.

Next I set the Ranchos all the way up to "9". Hooked real good with no spin initially. At the top of first gear though, I broke traction and just about rattled my fillings loose.

Road like a buckboard with the Ranchos at "9". Definitely a "race only" setting.

All this testing was at 28 psi in the tires, a quick burnout and fairly cold pavement temps.

There is probably better traction to be had by dropping the air pressure., but the springs are obviously still wrapping-up pretty good. More traction probably isn't the answer.

When I installed the new springs, I went with 2 degree shims. I'll probably go back in with the 4 degree shims for one last tweak.

Ultimately, it looks as if there is a Caltracs or Slide-a-Link in my future.

[idahogrumpy]

Ugh, don't flame me now, but have you tried an adjustable pinion snubber with the new springs?    Grumpy

[firefighter3931]

When I installed the new springs, I went with 2 degree shims. I'll probably go back in with the 4 degree shims for one last tweak.

Ultimately, it looks as if there is a Caltracs or Slide-a-Link in my future.

Where are you at for pinion angle now ? Try and get it to 5-7* nose down. 

Before upgrading to a set of Caltracs....try clamping the front segments. 




Ron

[471_Magnum]

Ugh, don't flame me now, but have you tried an adjustable pinion snubber with the new springs?    Grumpy

Not enough clearance to the floor pan to use the adjustable snubber on the street. Those things are too damn tall for stock height springs.

Where are you at for pinion angle now ? Try and get it to 5-7* nose down. 

Before upgrading to a set of Caltracs....try clamping the front segments. 

I'm at about 3-4 now. 5-7 seems like a lot for a car that spends most it's time on the street. The 4 degree shims should put me there.