Curing Wheel Hop - final update - FIXED!

[471_Magnum]

Since switching back to drag radials, I've been dealing with some nasty wheel hop.

Never was a problem on regular street radials... it just spun.

Now it's hopping on launch and on the 1-2 upshift.

I'm trying to nurse the 8 3/4 behind the stick for as long as possible before upgrading to a Dana 60. This wheel hop is going to make quick work of the 8 3/4 if I don't get it under control.

I currently run XHD springs and a stock snubber, along with KYB shocks. Pinion angle was about 1.5- 2 degrees down.

Yesterday I shimmed the axle down with 2 degree shims and installed an adjustible snubber with about 1" clearance.

That seemed to cure the hop, however, 1" clearance isn't enough on the street and unfortunately, that's as low as it goes. I was bottoming out frequently on a drive across town.

So today a I reinstalled the stock snubber, which has about 2.5"- 3" clearance. The hop is back. 

I've heard of clamping the front leafs to control the axle wrap, but I'm not sure how to proceed.

This is first and foremost a street car, so I'm not looking to make any mods that will sacrifice streetability

[Silver R/T]

Would cal trac's help?

[THE CHARGER PUNK]

Ladder bars or what some people call ''traction bars''

[471_Magnum]

Would cal trac's help?

I'm sure it would, but that's a little bigger of an investment than I want to make.

[Jon Smith]

can you get an adjustable snubber that goes lower? if that cured it
or modify it so it goes lower? or even take it off for street driving?

[471_Magnum]

can you get an adjustable snubber that goes lower? if that cured it
or modify it so it goes lower? or even take it off for street driving?

I can't modify it to go lower, but I could shim the stock snubber higher and find the happy medium. Installing the snubber only at the track is an option I'm considering, but I'd like to have better control on the street as well.

Most racers will tell you the snubber is a band-aid for spring wrap. If I could get the spring wrap under the control, the snubber wouldn't be needed.

My XHD springs may just be getting tired. They were rebuilt and re-arched more than 15 years ago. It may just be time for some new springs.

To elaborate on my previous comment regarding the Caltracs; to do it right, you need the Caltracs bars, monoleaf springs and new shocks... a pretty good investment. Also, that takes the car one step closer to dedicated a race car, which isn't what I'm after.

[Ghoste]

I'd start with a new set of the Hemi leaf springs from Espo or Eaton Detroit.  Not MP.

[471_Magnum]

I'd start with a new set of the Hemi leaf springs from Espo or Eaton Detroit.  Not MP.

That's kind of the direction I'm thinking. I've requested quotes from both. Neither lists prices on their websites.

[firefighter3931]

My XHD springs may just be getting tired. They were rebuilt and re-arched more than 15 years ago. It may just be time for some new springs.

To elaborate on my previous comment regarding the Caltracs; to do it right, you need the Caltracs bars, monoleaf springs and new shocks... a pretty good investment. Also, that takes the car one step closer to dedicated a race car, which isn't what I'm after.

The caltracs will work with an oem spring, but you need some good shocks. They are very streetable, but you should back off the preload a tad for street driving.

The xhd springs are a good alternative and should work well....allthough not as well as the Caltrac setup. Rebuilt 37 year old springs are pretty tired at this point. 



Ron

[471_Magnum]

I've heard the Caltracs work best with softer springs... not XHD or SS... of course, they recommend their own mono-leafs.

$350 for the Caltracs, plus another $180 for Rancho (or equivalent) adjustable shocks is really over my budget at this point. Another $300 for springs is out of the question.

So from a budget approach, where should I start? New XHD springs? New shocks? Good old fashion slapper bars?

[firefighter3931]

I've heard the Caltracs work best with softer springs... not XHD or SS... of course, they recommend they're own mono-leafs.

$350 for the Caltracs, plus another $180 for Rancho (or equivalent) adjustable shocks is really over my budget at this point. Another $300 for springs is out of the question.

So from a budget approach, where should I start? New XHD springs? New shocks? Good old fashion slapper bars?

From a budget standpoint, the xhd spring from a good vender like Eaton or Espo is the way to go. What are you running for rear shocks ?

That stroker is making waaaay more power    than those springs were originally designed for....letalone tired rebuilt springs. 



Ron

[471_Magnum]

I've got some old KYBs on the back. I've had them off before and they seem to be in pretty good shape (no leaks and the gas charge is intact), but they predate my ownership of the car and might date back to the original restoration back in the early nineties. Shouldn't have a ton of mileage on them though, and they seem to ride okay.

Just the same, probably a good time to upgrade. Not sure I can stomach $180 for Ranchos though.

I've run this combo for a while behind this motor with no wheel hop. I think installing the Tremec screwed up the pinion angle somewhat, although I was okay on street radials. The stickier Nitto drags must have exceeded the limits of the old springs... That's my theory at least. 

[Ghoste]

I thought Eaton had prices on their site?  Anyway, I think I paid about 300 bucks for a pair a little over a year ago from them.  Hmmm, bill might still be around here somewhere...

[471_Magnum]

I thought Eaton had prices on their site?  Anyway, I think I paid about 300 bucks for a pair a little over a year ago from them.  Hmmm, bill might still be around here somewhere...

Just found a PDF file on their website.... $429 pr.... YEEEOUCH! 

Think I'll check with ESPO.

[Silver R/T]

Jim used to have CalTracs on his green R/T before he sold it. It would hook up very good

[Ghoste]

I don't think mine were that much, but it was still money well spent.

[Chryco Psycho]

try a set of square top 3-4" U bolts clamped 1/2 way down the front spring section

[471_Magnum]

Got a quote back from Eaton: $429 + $63 shipping.

All of a sudden making the investment in a Caltracs almost looks reasonable.

Any opinions on the Competion Engineering Slide-A-Link?

[d72hemi]

I know one of the Mopar mags. did an artical on using Ranchero rear shock setup to fix wheel hop. Sorry I don't have access to that artical, but I know it is online somewhere, I just did not see it in the 5 minutes I spent looking for it.

[471_Magnum]

 

[firefighter3931]

Have you checked with ESPO (Springs & Things) for pricing ?


Ron

[471_Magnum]

Just sent a request for quote.

[firefighter3931]

Mancini also sells the SS springs for $230 with free shackles or u-bolts, but you would have to replace the front hangers because the forward segment is 2in shorter on the SS springs (20in vs 22in). I haven't heard anything bad about the SS springs.....just the MP xhd springs. I have a set going on my 68 (SS springs) and they are pretty stiff....i just installed them with the new Dana.

Fwiw, most of the complaints of read on other boards regarding MP leafs has been with the a-body guys....go figure. 


Ron

[471_Magnum]

Got the quote from ESPO: $190 pr + $55 S/H

Why the heck does Eaton think they're springs are worth so much more?!?!

[Ghoste]

I don't know.  I picked mine up at their shop and I don't think it's overhead.

[firefighter3931]

Got the quote from ESPO: $190 pr + $55 S/H

I think you found your new springs ! 



Ron

[471_Magnum]

As you will see on the video I posted elsewhere, I'm still dealing with wheel hop.

I haven't pulled the trigger on the new springs yet, mostly because I'm not certain they will fix my problem, but I'm also waiting for the next billing cycle on the Master Card (rough Christmas).

Anyway, today I rechecked the pinion to driveshaft angle. With the 2 degree shims, I'm at 2.5 degrees down.

I've got some 4 degree shims. Should I try them, or is that a waste of time? I'm thinking they will put me near 5 degrees, which is a lot for a mostly street driven car.

If I go with new springs, I plan to go with ESPOs equivalent of the MP XHD springs. Should I go with stock height, or plus 1 or 2 (at extra cost)? I'm thinking fresh springs are probably worth an inch or so even at "stock" height. That said, some extra height would help with the pinion angle. I don't want the car to look "jacked-up" though.

[firefighter3931]

Jim, i would just go with the Espo springs at stock height. Adjust the pinion angle when installing them to 5* nose down and set the snubber 1.5in from the floor. Those old springs are tired, you have a Tq monster stroker and some sticky tires. Pretty much a no brainer.

Sorry to hear about the Credit Card Hangover....there's a lot of that going around. 



Ron

[471_Magnum]

Came across the ad for the "Ground Pounder" package in Mopar Muscle. Looked like just the type set-up I need to get my wheel hop under control.

Checked it out on Just Suspensions website: http://www.justsuspension.com/groundpounder.htm

$1000!!!

Holy smoke! I expected a price tag of maybe half that. Seems a bit over-priced for a set of four KYB shocks, some brackets, hardware and leaf springs. In the end, all you've netted is an additional pair of KYB shocks.

For pretty much the same money, you can get the CalTracs set-up with springs and shocks, albeit maybe not as streetable.

I'd like to see them sell just the shock mounts, bushings and hardware. I could source the rest myself for a lot less than a grand.

[Chryco Psycho]

you could install ladderbars for less & that will kill wheel hop !!

[BrianShaughnessy]

I don't wheel hop but then again I haven't gotten my car to hook up w/ the old bfg's either in spite of the caltracs.   I'll know  more when I put the ET's on it in the spring.

But in a related post somebody was asking about the spring eye bushings and it reminded me that I have the solid 1.5" bushing that work with R/T springs.   Being as your car isn't an r/t... you probably have the 2" old rubber jobs on the non r/t springs.

I'm fine with my ride height as is w/ the R/T springs which is why I never got the caltrac springs.   But I'd just as soon use the caltracs as they're much more consistent than I've seen most once a year drag racers like me run with pinion snubbers.   And it goes straight also.

Um... what was I talking about   

Edit... oh yeah...   I think caltracs are very streetable with stock r/t springs.      I can't speak for their glass springs myself.    They don't recommend using SS springs with caltracs anyway.

[andy74]

whats wrong with the mopar springs?i need to replace my rears this spring,and they seem pretty good price wise,are they crap?

[Ghoste]

They have a very bad reputation for losing their camber in a short time.  Many folks will tell you they have had no problems but it seems like a great deal more can report of them going bad quickly.

[471_Magnum]

I've got the 6/7 leaf springs on mine, but the bushings are shot. (on a side note, I don't consider it to be a clone. Nowhere is there an "R/T" on the car).

I got some additional info from Just Suspension:

Just Suspension will sell the Ground Pounder package as components.

The horizontal shocks, mounts and hardware are $299. This is the basic "ground pounder".

Other items in the package individually are priced as follows:
Shock plates $170
KYB shocks $80
U bolts $40
HD Poly shackles $99
Springs $399

I don't want to bash on Just Suspension since they are stepping up and offering a new product, but it seems their pricing is a bit steep across the board.

The basic Ground Pounder seems to be priced competitively with the offerings from Calvert Racing (CalTracs) and Competition Engineering (Slide-A-Link), but I don't think it's an "apples to apples" comparison.

The other components can certainly be sourced elsewhere for substantially less if you wanted or needed the entire package.

I'd sure like to see how this system compares performance-wise to the proven set-ups already out there before dropping 300 bucks, let alone a grand.

[BrianShaughnessy]

"clone" reference deleted.    Sorry... my mistake. 

[471_Magnum]

No sweat. It's not that I get offended by the "clone" reference.

The only reason I didn't just let it pass is that if I were to build/own a clone, it would be much more convincing. My car makes for a half-ass clone at best, since the only thing that references an R/T is the 70-style stripe that was purposely chosen because it doesn't say "R/T".

Now back to our regularly scheduled program.

The Ground Pounder carries some appeal for me because I don't want to hook too hard, which the Caltracs or Slide-A-Link might do. It's primary function is to dampen the spring wrap that in turn causes axle hop. The Caltracs and Slide-A-Link actually harness the spring wrap to load the tires harder.

In my case, the clutch and differential are probably overmatched at this point.  I purposely selected the Nitto Drags over some of the stickier drag radials. I wanted to allow for some spin and spare the rest of my drivetrain. Unfortunately, instead of spin, I got hop.

I just can't get past the price tag on the Ground Pounder. Cut the price in half and I'd be tempted.

Here's another idea bouncing around in my head:
After closely inspecting my springs and discovering the woeful condition of the bushings, I'm thinking maybe I should start with some poly bushings and new shocks. If that doesn't improve the problem, I'll buck up either for springs, or one of the other traction aids.

[andy74]

i think you have the right idea,get the bushings and shocks handled first,and see how the car acts.you will probably be in the same boat i am and still need new springs(but maybe youll get lucky?)i knowi am following your post to see what ill end up doing in the long run myself,so keep it coming!

[471_Magnum]

My ESPO springs arrived Thursday. Got them installed today.

I went back to my 2 degree shims, swapping out the 4 degree shims.

Car sits about 1" higher now, but I expect it to settle a bit. I'll recheck the pinion angle once it's had a chance to settle.

Went for a quick test drive. I did a couple of hard launches. There was still a hint of wheel hop, but not quite as bad.

Next step is a set of Rancho RS9000 adjustable shocks. I came across a slightly used set on eBay. Don't have them yet.

The ESPO springs are a bit different than the Mopar springs. Lengths of the leafs are different. Most notably, the sixth leaf is a half leaf on both sides. The originals are full leafs. The RH seventh leaf is a half leaf on both. In addition, the ESPO springs have a 2" front bushing and the original is 1.75".

Not that craftmanship is particularly important on a leaf spring, but the originals just look to be a little better put together.

I had a couple of somewhat scary discoveries during the removal of the old springs:
The nuts on the LH shackels were not much more than finger tight. These weren't lock nuts like on the new shackels. Somehow they stayed put all this time.
The RH front eye-bolt wasn't tight either. This is what gave me the false impression the bushing was shot.

By the way, the old springs are for sale. I won't ship them, but if you're in the neighborhood, drop me a PM and I'll quote you a price.

[471_Magnum]

Friday night I installed a set of Rancho 9000 adjustable shock to replace my aged KYBs.

I picked up a used set off ebay. Got them for half the price of new.

The particular shocks I got are 1" longer than stock (p/n 99116). The bushings needed to be modified as well. Had to open them slightly and put a sleeve in the top bushing.

For base line, I set the shocks at "5".

Saturday I went for a spin. Car felt slightly stiffer. The suspension didn't bottom out over a notorious dip in the road that had jarred my kidneys in the past.

Road and tires were fairly cold during my launches (ambient temp in the high 30s). Did a quick burnout to warm the tires a bit. On my test lanches, it would spin a bit out of the hole. It still hopped pretty good on the 1-2 shift, although maybe not quite as bad as before.

Before my next test, I'll turn the shocks all the way to "9". If that don't get it, I'm not sure what's next.

Our overzealous highway department dumped salt on the roads today after a light dusting of snow, so it could be a while before I get out again.

[Steve P.]

I would not put the GROUND POUNDER on a lawn mower..  It took me about 1/2 second to see it's biggest flaw. Those extra shocks and brackets LOSE you about 3 inches of tire.   


Modified as I am boing glind and aslo hvae a bit fo disxlia..   

[Ghoste]

He's got the new springs on there Steve, if shock tuning doesn't get it our traction challenged friend may need to invest in something a little more complex. (I don't like the ground pounder either, it looks cumbersome to me)

[471_Magnum]

Actually, the ground pounder shock mounts directly over the spring. The pictures on the website are a little deceptive. There would be no loss in tire clearance.

[Ghoste]

So where is the other shock running to?  Is it up in the front spring eye?

[471_Magnum]

So where is the other shock running to?  Is it up in the front spring eye?

The shocks go to the rear.

[Ghoste]

It still looks awkward to me for some reason but I'm sure as hell no genius.  Are there any real world reports coming in on them yet?

[471_Magnum]

Send me $300 bucks and I'll give you a real world report.

On a side note, winter has firmly set in down here. The groundhog says spring is right around the corner, but there is a ton of salt on the road and no spring showers in foreseeable future to wash the salt away. Got the shocks turned-up, but no opportunity for a test drive.

[471_Magnum]

Had some nice weather today. Got the Charger out for the first time in about two weeks.

Set the Ranchos to "7" and did a couple of hard launches. I still got some hop in first gear.

Next I set the Ranchos all the way up to "9". Hooked real good with no spin initially. At the top of first gear though, I broke traction and just about rattled my fillings loose.

Road like a buckboard with the Ranchos at "9". Definitely a "race only" setting.

All this testing was at 28 psi in the tires, a quick burnout and fairly cold pavement temps.

There is probably better traction to be had by dropping the air pressure., but the springs are obviously still wrapping-up pretty good. More traction probably isn't the answer.

When I installed the new springs, I went with 2 degree shims. I'll probably go back in with the 4 degree shims for one last tweak.

Ultimately, it looks as if there is a Caltracs or Slide-a-Link in my future.

[idahogrumpy]

Ugh, don't flame me now, but have you tried an adjustable pinion snubber with the new springs?    Grumpy

[firefighter3931]

When I installed the new springs, I went with 2 degree shims. I'll probably go back in with the 4 degree shims for one last tweak.

Ultimately, it looks as if there is a Caltracs or Slide-a-Link in my future.

Where are you at for pinion angle now ? Try and get it to 5-7* nose down. 

Before upgrading to a set of Caltracs....try clamping the front segments. 




Ron

[471_Magnum]

Ugh, don't flame me now, but have you tried an adjustable pinion snubber with the new springs?    Grumpy

Not enough clearance to the floor pan to use the adjustable snubber on the street. Those things are too damn tall for stock height springs.

Where are you at for pinion angle now ? Try and get it to 5-7* nose down. 

Before upgrading to a set of Caltracs....try clamping the front segments. 

I'm at about 3-4 now. 5-7 seems like a lot for a car that spends most it's time on the street. The 4 degree shims should put me there.

[Ghoste]

Which pinion snubber did you try?  I have that threaded style on my car and I can leave it in there on the street as long as the car isn't loaded.

[471_Magnum]

Which pinion snubber did you try?  I have that threaded style on my car....

That's the one I've got. Unloaded, there's maybe an inch of clearance. Not enough.

[471_Magnum]

Another update....

Current set-up: Espo XHD springs, Rancho 9000's set at "6", ~4 degrees down on pinion angle, adjustable pinion snubber w/ 2.5" clearance.

Installing the 4 degree shims seems to have helped a bunch, but it's noisy as hell now. It did buy me clearance for the adjustable snubber.

I did a little testing over in the industrial park. I could feel the snubber pounding the floor on the 1-2 shift, but no hop. I would probably tighten up that clearance at the track.

Track opened this past weekend for TnT, but I was unable to make it over there. Maybe this weekend I'll be able to make a few passes and see what kind of 60 ft times I can post.

That being said, I do not like running on the street with this much pinion angle. The whine will make me nuts, and the long term impact on the u-joint scares me.

I'm going to start saving my pennies for a Slide-A-Link. In the mean time, I might fab up some spring clamps.

[firefighter3931]

Well, that's an improvement. The clamps might do the trick and keep the front segment from wrapping up....i would try that and see what happens. If it works you could try reducing the pinion angle to see how it responds. Suspension tuning can be a pain in the azz ! My guess is that the front segment isn't stiff enough if you're hitting the floor with that much snubber clearance. Fwiw, most guys running a real stiff SS type spring don't even need a snubber. 


Ron

[Ghoste]

Maybe you're going to need the SS springs?

[471_Magnum]

Haven't done anything with the car lately. Crappy weather has kept the car in the garage. Track has been closed due to weather all but one weekend so far this spring.

I did pull out the shims altogether (much quieter now, thank you), and reinstalled the stock snubber (anybody want to buy a slightly used adjustable?). I was going to fabricate a spacer for the stock snubber and play with clamping the leafs, but...

I scored a slightly used Slide-A-Link off Ebay.    It will be a couple of weeks before I recieve it and have time to bolt it in.

I sold my old XHD springs to a buddy, but have yet to install them. Since the bushings are shot in those, but they are in otherwise good shape, I think I'm going to swap him for my new ESPO springs. Then I'll install the solid bushing in my old ones and use them with the Slide-A-Link.

[471_Magnum]

Slide-A-Link arrived today.

Right away I noticed one small problem. I plan to use my old factory XHD springs. They have the smaller OD front bushing which has to be replaced with a solid aluminum bushing. Unfortunately, the Slide-A-Link comes with a larger OD front bushing to fit the LoPo springs (or my ESPO springs).

I guess when I bring the XHD springs to the machine shop to have the bushings pressed in, I'll just have them turn the diameter down on the supplied aluminum bushing to fit.

Working some long hours this week, but hopefully I'll find the time to get this installed by the weekend.

[BrianShaughnessy]

Cool...     Mancini sells the 1.5" bushings IIRC.

I had to get caltrac to send me the 1.5" bushings back when I got them - they sent me the 2" on the first try.   

[471_Magnum]

Since I bought the set-up second hand, I really can't lean on CE to send me new bushing anyway.

Machine shop will have them ready Friday, so I've got a weekend project.

I'm just wondering how well the bars will work with the XHD springs. I've heard the bars work best with softer springs. Since I'm not looking for maximum hook (due to my clutch and 8.75), I doubt it will hurt me. Worst case, I can remove some leaves, or I've got a old set of Lo-Po springs.

BTW, congrats on getting into the latest issue of Mopar Action.

[471_Magnum]

SANTA MARIA!!!!!! I'm going to need a neck brace.

Finally got the slide-a-link installed. Ran into a few snags in the process, but after a couple of late nights in the garage, it's in.

In addition to the aforementioned spring bushing issue, the spring-eye sleeve was the wrong size and the front link bracket interfered with the spring hanger.

The sleeve I had bored out and work. No big deal. The spring hanger required a bunch of grinding.

Anyway, I set it up for the street with some slack in the slider. Went for a test drive. Still spun a little on launch with cold tires, but no hop. The big pay off was when I grabbed second gear. Just a little tire chirp and some serious acceleration. No hop.

I did several 5800 rpm upshift with the same results... just a chirp and a thump (the link hitting). I started to smell clutch after that... SOOOO we know what the next project is going to be...  

[Just 6T9 CHGR]

Good news Jim!  Any pics of the install?

[BrianShaughnessy]

SANTA MARIA!!!!!! I'm going to need a neck brace.

   

[471_Magnum]

I actually had the opportunity to go to the track today and make a couple of passes. The Viper Truck Club had the track rented and invited some Mopar guys to come out and play with them.

My best was a 8.34 @ 87 mph with a 1.9 60 ft. A little spin on that run with NO WHEEL HOP.

I was by no means trying to set the world on fire. With Power Tour only 4 weeks away, last thing I wanted to do was break something.

Track prep was minimal and temps were in the mid-80s. Definitely not the best conditions. I ran 18 psi in the Nitto drags and only about 1/2 turn of pre-load on the bars. I made no adjustments. Next time I'll drop to 15 psi and go with more pre-load.

[471_Magnum]

Good news Jim! Any pics of the install?

[Ghoste]

Drag radials are beginning to look a little worn there James old buddy. 

[Bandit72]

would that slide a link work with a spring relocation kit installed?

[471_Magnum]

would that slide a link work with a spring relocation kit installed?

Don't see why it wouldn't