Repentine trouble with the starter and the flywheel

[COKE]

My car  have started to make an horrible noise  when i,m pressing the clutch pedal.
I have removed the flywheel  bell bellow cover and i have discovered that the flywheel and the starter pinion are very close and when you are pressing the clutch,the flywheel makes a little flex movement and then it,s surface(Not the tooths) makes friction with the starter pinion face .
The mini starter is a rebuilt Nipodenso  one that i did mount one year ago  and all was working fine until now.
I have removed it and all seems to be ok with it.It works fine...

This is a mistake.
I only can find two explanations
One is that somethin has moved between the tranny and the engine,maybe the bell or the pinion on the starter is more advanced but this seems to be in his place.
Do not know what to think.

Anny sugestion will be apreciated.

[Chryco Psycho]

something is way off if the starter pinion is hitting the face of the flywheel

[69hemi]

I would check the pinion of the starter and also your flywheel as it should not be flexing.

[Steve P.]

when you are pressing the clutch,the flywheel makes a little flex movement

If your flywheel is moving AT ALL it has to be lose. I would pull the tranny, bell housing and clutch out and check the torque of the flywheel to crankshaft bolts.

The only other thing that can cause a front to back movement would be excessive thrust bearing wear. This must  be checked with the clutch assembly disengaged. 

Keep us informed..

[COKE]

The flex movement of the Flywheel is very little...i would say that it seems to be  something natural.
To check the  torque of the bolts  is a good idea anyway .
But i belive the distance between the the Flywheel and the pinion can,t be correct,they are almost touching ,that is why they rub with the little flex movement.















I do not remember how they were when i mounted the starter one year ago,but the clutch and starter have been working fine until now.

Like you see in the pictures,the pinion and flywheel are too much close.
Abou the starter,it seems to be ok.The pinion can,t  stay behind of theposition where  it is.

I also have discovered that the flywheel tooths have scratched the interior of the bell bellow plastic. cover.

Thanks for read.

[Steve P.]

COKE,,,, The flywheel better NOT be flexing... If it is, it is cracked or lose.. If you can see it move you have a problem. It is bolted solidly to the crank. It cannot flex....  If it moves by disengaging the clutch my bet is lose bolts or hammered thrust bearing..

[COKE]

Steve ,you are right,but keep in mind that the clutch makes a lot of force and the flywheel is a large piece.It seems to be  a flex movement from the part itself not a clearance,however i will have to check the bolts.
However a distance of 2 mm or less  between the FW and the starter pinion is not a good thing and it is not going to admite any kind of small tolerance, giving troubles like this.

Is necessary to remove the crankshaft for change the trhush bearing?

Thanks.

[Steve P.]

Coke, the thrust bearing CAN be changed WITHOUT removing the crankshaft. You have to believe me when I tell you that the FLYWHEEL must not flex... If it did it would be junk...  We are not talking about an automatic with a FLEX PLATE.  If you have a clutch that you manually disengage the flywheel is not supposed to flex.. Have you actually seen it flex?? Measured it??


As I said before, bolts or thrust bearing clearance..

[tecmopar]

Its all been covered so far but the first thing to check is the thrust bearing. Do it at the FRONT of the motor at the dampener using a dial indicator if you have/or have access to one. Place the tip on a flat section of the dampener and pry the damp. foward and back. factory clearance is .002-.007, much more means a bad #3 bearing and possibly the face/thrust area of the crank. If its in spec then you really have some sort of problem with a loose, bent, cracked flywheel, BUT, also check the ring gear on the flywheel to see if has moved foward in a couple of spots. Some guys don't know that they are removeable and I have seen a few that were not seated all the way cause something like this, good luck.

[COKE]

After to read all the thing you  guys  have written  abouth the Thrust Bearing, im doubting if the trouble is a flex movement from the flywheel or maybe all the cranshaft is going to be  advancing when the clutch is pulling.
This has logic....
I was talking about a flex movement,cause that it was what  it seems to be happening when i was looking behind the car while a friend was pressing the clutch pedal.

However the distance between the pinion and the FW is not normal...I know this is not an original starter for  this engine,but unless there is something out of place on my engine  just now  i can,t understand how this can fit on that way.

Then  is the thrust bearing  on the front of the engine ,just behind the pulley and the timming chain pinion?

Thanks a lot for your help.

[Charger_Fan]

Maybe I can't see it in this pic, but...



...where's the armature shaft that your starter drive slides on?
Looks like your drive bushing is working it's way out too.
If the shaft is missing or slid back, that starter is junk! Go buy a new one & your problem's solved.

I know this isn't a Dodge starter, but it's the only good reference pic I could find for the armature shaft.

[Steve P.]

I noticed that too, but was sidelined by all the FLEXing of the flywheel..      My mistake..

[COKE]

The startes is a just rebuilt one

This kind of mini-starter does not have a shaft for slide the pinion.

The shaft is behind the pinion and it push this to the front when the relay is excited.
It is  a diferent kind of  mechanism.
It does work fine.


Today i  have been under the car again and i have seen that if i make  lever with a screw driver between the block and the fllywheel,i can to move it more than 1 mm towards the rear.
I don not know if this is correct or into the limits.
The movement toward the front is almost imperceptible but due the pinion and the FW are so close is enough to meeting them.
Also i have remembered that when i changed the rear main seal i find the seal  holder was scratched for the flywheel bolts.

I starting to belive that there is a clearance around there and it is stopped for the  fly wheel  bolts when they are colliding  with  the  rear main seal holder.Due they are  eating it a little  each day ,the clearance begins to be higher until to arrive to touch the starter pinion ,when the clutch diaphragm is pushing.
It is only an idea.

Steve, i said that thing about the flex on the  Flywheel because it was the firs thing that cames to my head in that moment.
An axial  clearance on the caranckshaft is tha las thing that i could to imagine that it can hapen on an engine.
At least this is the first time i have seen this.

[John_Kunkel]

One millimeter (.03937") is way too much crank end play, factory tolerance is .002"-.007".

[Charger_Fan]

This kind of mini-starter does not have a shaft for slide the pinion.

Ah, ok. I couldn't see enough of the rest of the starter to tell. Still looks like that bushing's working it's way out though, maybe that's making the drive not return all the way back in?

Beyond that, I'm outta guesses.

[COKE]

Ah, ok. I couldn't see enough of the rest of the starter to tell. Still looks like that bushing's working it's way out though, maybe that's making the drive not return all the way back in?

Beyond that, I'm outta guesses.

Charger Fan
That,s what i was thinking...That it was not returning all the way .
Even with the possible clearance on the crankshaft,it continues being too much close from the Flywheel.
Even i was thinking to built a little spacer for it.
But the starter seems to be ok.


What bushing are you refering?


About the crankshaft tolerance and the thrust bearing chang operation,the other day i was looking  on the work shop manual and i don,t see nothing about this,


Regards.

[tecmopar]

You may not think its the crank end play but BOTH I and John K have said it, check the end play. You have about .040 at 1 mill. which is WAY to much. Plus if you have the wrong flywheel bolts in there that are too long, every time you step on the clutch pedal you're jamming them into the back of the block and tearing things up. Dismiss the starter for a moment and check the crank, good luck.

[COKE]

Tecmopar,

Yes you are right  ,like i said before the starter is  a rebuilt unit ,it is  fine,all is in his place and it has been working fine until now ,so i  know it is not the culprit.
I,m sure that the trouble comes form the end play,i only said that even with or without  the end play trouble  the starter seems to seat on a very close position.


Now i would like to know how can i do to change the Thrust bearing.
So if someone could advise  to me would be nice.


Thanks again  for the help.

[Steve P.]

Normally by the time an engine needs a thrust bearing it is time for a rebuild. Manual shift cars are harder on thrust bearings, universal joints and rear ends.

Since you have never done this before I suggest you Have it done by a pro or AT LEAST buy a repair manual for your car and follow it.

You can change the bearings in the car, but it is sometimes difficult. 

You will need a cherry picker. (Engine hoist).

If you have a shroud or your fan is close to the radiator you will need to remove the shroud or fan so it does not do any damage while lifting the motor.

Raise the car and make sure you use jack stands......

Motor mount bolts and drag, (center), link must be removed.

Depending on your exhaust set up, most times needs to be separated.

drain oil.

Remove any oil pan bolts you can get to before lifting the motor.

Raise the motor as high as you can being very careful not to do harm to anything.

Support the motor. (Wood blocks between motor mounts and seats works well).

Remove the rest of the oil pan bolts and remove the pan.

(BE CAREFUL NOT TO DAMAGE THE PICK UP TUBE).

Remove one bearing cap at a time and replace it's bearing.  Each bearing has a small catch on one end. (DO NOT try to push that end around the crank)..

The motor side bearing shell is a bit of work to remove and replace. I am not aware of any special tool for this. I have been using a very thin piece of spring steel that I ground all sharp edges off from for years. (It's one of those tools you make in time of necessity and keep it if it works)..

Inspect the crank for scoring. If you can catch a fingernail on any scratches you should remove the motor and take it to a machine shop to be rebuilt.

While installing the bearings you need to coat the inside of each bearing with oil.

Install the bearings being very careful not to scratch them or the crank and making SURE the The catch goes into it's seat properly.

Make sure you install the cap in the same way it came off. (The catches in the bearing will be on the same side together).  Tighten the main cap bolts using a small ratchet and then spin the motor by hand to ensure you have NO BINDING.  This is much easier with the spark plugs out.

Torque all crank bolts once ALL the bearings are in.

Clean pan and gasket surfaces.

Install new pan gasket and install the pan.

Lower the motor back into the mounts and bolt it all back together..

Put in your oil, spark plugs, fan, shroud and exhaust.

Pull the coil wire and spin over the motor a few times checking for anything unusual.  If all is well and you have double checked everything, plug in your coil wire and start it up.


Ooo, gotta go. I'm babysitting today...

[Charger_Fan]

Charger Fan

What bushing are you refering?

The brass bushing your slide caliper is resting against. They don't usually poke out very far beyond the drive gear.

[COKE]

Steve , i do not    pick up the engine to remove the oil pan.
I use to remove the two wheel side tie rods and the idler arm bolt ,and then  i turn all the steering bar around the pitman arm, so i get the room to remove the pan.
You only need a tie rods puller.


I have the original workshop manual from Chrysler,but i belive that there don,t say how to do this.

Then it is not only one bearing ,they are  the 3 or 4 (I do not remenber)bearings that hold the crankshaft to the block.

Thanks a lot for the explanation.
I suppouse that you have wasted  a lot of time to writte it.

[Steve P.]

I suppouse that you have wasted  a lot of time to writte it.

Hahaha....  Not a problem..

Good luck..   

[tecmopar]

Yeah Steve, I was gonna ask if you have a secretary or something to do all of that typing for you, that would take me about 2 days to do, ha ha. Back to the issue, COKE, if you have the manual I think it does explain how to change them with the motor in the car. As Steve said, inspect the crank very closely for scoring or burning, mostly the 3# journal ( thrust bearing ) on the thrust faces. If their bad they will tear up the new bearing real fast, good luck.

[Steve P.]

  Nope, no secomatary here..  Haha....    I still have to look at the keys.. I try to type without looking but it usually look like this.

Hekku guys. O nb0pe yoj a;; havr a nicr Z=mad.   


Translation:  Hello guys. I hope you all have a nice X-mas.

[tecmopar]

khidk  kiyjmcdjjf, KOWQ UT jhzzlnbndk  twvums s, To ALL!!!! AND  a HAPPY NEW YEAR!.