VIN decal on door concerning Daytonas

[hemi68charger]

Hey gang..
Is there a rule of thumb concerning the VIN decal on the driver's door on Daytona. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the '70 model year didn't start the VIN decal on the driver's door, but the '69 Daytona actually did... If that indeed is the case, was there a rule of thumb or when it started?

Cheers,
Troy

[hemigeno]

All I have is my theories on that subject, as I haven't seen any definitive facts written down.  However...

The cars were technically being shipped to the dealerships from Creative Industries, and those shipments effectively started in mid-August of 1969.  1970 model year production started earlier that month - and those cars required door VIN decals. 

Personally, I think Chrysler got worried that even though the Daytonas were considered a 1969 model year car, the Feds would look at them as a 1970 model year car due to the time they were actually shipped out to the dealers.  That could get Chrysler fined for not being in compliance with Federal Standards (of the day).

I honestly do not know if the VIN decals were applied at Creative Industries, or at Hamtramck.  Since the myth that R/T's were randomly pulled off the line for conversion to a Daytona has been dispelled, it is certainly possible that Hamtramck applied the decal before the cars were shipped to Creative Industries.  They knew exactly which cars were slated for conversions, so slapping a decal on just those cars would be no big deal - the question is whether or not Chrysler anticipated the August ship dates and made the connection to the 1970 decal requirement.  It is also very possible that no one thought of that little detail until Creative was well into the conversions, and a batch of decals had to be taken to Creative to be installed there.  The font is different on the Daytona VIN decals as compared to other 1970-model decals, but I don't know what the significance of that fact is.

From what I have seen, I had thought that all Daytonas got the sticker.  My car's decal is missing, but I can see where it was on the door from some residual adhesive marks. 

I have seen cars with an SPD of 4/27 with a VIN decal, so I do not think the determining factor is Hamtramck's build date.  If the earliest cars shipped from Creative Industries did not originally have stickers (and I do not know if that is the case or not), that would be the clue that Creative was the point of decal installation.  The first shipped Daytona went out on 6/27, but the next car didn't go out until 8/16.  If that first car (414619) did not originally have a sticker, that's the answer we are looking for.

Hard to say anything for certain on this subject with what we know about it now.

[hemigeno]

[IMG]


One of these 3 page of conversion had mentioned the decal

Yeah, I have those same copies.  There is an instruction to "Remove original vehicle certification label", but I do not know if: #1. That actually refers to the VIN sticker, or #2. If they actually did removed the label (since the second part of that instruction tells them to remove the tire pressure decal also and I know for a fact that they only put the new tire pressure decal right over the first one on my car). 

That checklist sheet is somewhat abbreviated though, so just because the installation of a new VIN sticker (or vehicle certification label, if it's the same thing) is not listed as an action step does not mean that Creative Industries wasn't the place where it was originally installed.

[nascarxx29]

My car didnt show evidence of having a door vin sticker.It was a 606 car.I looked on PCG site who has the decal available to see if there was any additional remarks with regards to the door vin decal as to ordering by this month or cut off date due to your cars build date etc.And found nothing. But only found about how to order one of those decals.Ive looked at those door vin decals on cars Ive owned and the repos.And it might be just my opinion .But I dont think they can duplicate the letter fonts on the original door vin decals as compared to the repo .Most likely made by a IBM computer.Which is not neccessarly a bad thing .It will document who had them made and and the cars they went on


Vehicle Identification decals: (for left door of cars from 1969-79-1969 is Daytona only) send copy of title, pencil rubbing on paper of dashboard plate and fender tag, copy of broadcast sheet. Inquire if some documentation is missing. All requests are checked for fraud against master lists. Copy EXACTLY all typed-in information if original decal exists. Variations in style exist. MUST FORWARD THIS TYPED IN DATA FOR 1972-UP CARS.............................15.00 This info was pulled from the PCG page

[nascarxx29]

To remove the orginal vehicle certification decal is listed on both pages Once mentioned with the tire pressure.And again with out tire pressure.Both decals are in the same proximity to each other.Both on the drivers side

[hemigeno]

Dave Walden at ECS Automotive has spot-on reproductions, from what I've heard.

http://www.ecsautomotive.com/oscmax/product_info.php?cPath=1&products_id=49

I am personally glad that they are doing repros that well, since there are other ways to validate whether a car is authentic or not without having to rely on a sticker.

[hemigeno]

I dug through David Patik's 1994 Daytona judging form, and here's what it said about the decal:

... VIN decal on rear face of door must have correct type, style and material (not all cars originally had a VIN decal).

The question is - what determined which cars got decals and which didn't?  Build date?  C.I. Ship Date?  Random? 

[nascarxx29]

My car also had tire pressure decal on top of another one.If the repo door decals are spot on that makes a for a more correct detail for the car hobby .Then blank build sheets and window stickers and warranty books etc etc can follow.Long as someone is keeping tabs.That will prevent alot of counter fit cars.Is my.02

[nascarxx29]

I have copies of Dave judge sheets .I was surprised when he put my name on the bottom of the pages on the 92 or 94 sheets along with the others mentioned .Its what I went by when I looked over cars.Those and what I learned about from my own experience .And Individual cars has been a helpfull learning tool.Along with his shared reference pictures and knowledge

[hemigeno]

My car also had tire pressure decal on top of another one.

Yup, same here...

[hemi68charger]

Man, a plethora of info.. So, there's still really no concrete evidence whether one Daytona versus another had the VIN decal on the door.. So, if one's installed, albeit it has the proper font, then it's ok.....

[69_500]

Dave, your Daytona didn't have the VIN sticker? I hadn't ever seen a daytona that was missing it, unless the owners had removed it. Like was the case for a few of my dad's Daytona's. They were removed to paint the car.

[nascarxx29]

I will find the picture showing no decal.Also my car had omitted the 2 drilled holes .In the original vin matching rad support.For the plastic retainer that guides the vacuum lines.And had no rear seat buttons on evidence like a hole or threads.Most likely due to it was built on 606 FRI

[hemigeno]

My car was missing its decal when I purchased it too, but if you looked real close you could see the faint outline of the VIN decal:



Earlier, I had thought my car retained all its original paint.  When Vance & his guys started sanding things down, it turns out that my car has had not one, but two repaints      They did not sand in the door jamb area while I was there, so I don't know if they peeled the decal off to paint the edge of the door, or if it was removed for some other reason.  It definitely shows evidence of having been there at one time.

Most likely due to it was built on 606 FRI

Dave, don't forget that your car and mine almost certainly went down the Hamtramck assembly line only 24 cars apart.  Based on your engine's assembly date of June 11th and adding in the 10 days (+/-) of transport and queue time for engines from the Trenton Engine Plant to the Hamtramck Assembly Plant, the chances are really high that your car and mine went down the line somewhere around June 21st.  It's impossible to say for certain what day a car went down the line without having some other plant-generated paperwork. 

I also think the holes for the vacuum hose retainer on the radiator yoke were drilled at Creative Industries, since several original cars have their retainer holes drilled right through the antifreeze decal.  It is odd about your seats having no buttons though.  Stranger things have happened though.  The St. Louis plant guys still talk about a car that went down the line as a 4-door sedan on one side, and a 2-door coupe on the other.  Wonder what they did with that one? 

[nascarxx29]

There were other quality control issues .But these cars were hurried out the door .My original owner found and gave me when new 1970 circa pictures.My car sold for nearly over $5000.If I recall from my papers it was over $3900.00 As daytonas were supposed to be $300.00 more than a charger RT I read some place.I noticed that common tear area around the striker in your picture Hemi Geno.Had cars with same damaged area from drooping door with bad door hinges.And repeated door slamming.If they only knew to loosen the 3 screws on door jamb to compensate

[69_500]

So your car had 2 repaints? Or is the just the second coat that Creative industries put on the car after installing the rear window plug Gene?

The front fenders should have only 1 coat, where as the rear of the car, and top of the roof should have 2.

Just .02 which I'm sure you've already considered.

Dave I have some photo's around here showing your rear seats missing a few buttons. And it appears they never were attached either as the stiching doesn't appear to ever have had buttons. Wasn't it only on one side of the rear seat?

[Wingnut426]

Thought I would mention that the 69 1/2 lift off hood Road Runners and Super Bees also had
the door VIN decal.  Maybe someone with these type cars know something.    Wingnut426

[nascarxx29]

Good observation Pete on the 2 69 1/2 lift off hood cars also sharing the door vin decal .Maybe a coincedence .But these cars were also involved with creative industries if thats the connection and reason for vin decals on them??.As the daytonas were as well involved with creative.I found the 69 1/2 cars showing a close build date.426 SCHEDULED PRODUCTION DATE (APR 26) a Lynch road assembly job # 922105 .And the daytona is a Hamtramck 427-612 926-927 Job numbers

[hemigeno]

I really am not sure that the A12 6-pack cars had the VIN sticker.  While I'm anything but an expert when it comes to those cars, I personally didn't remember them having the sticker.  I searched the Moparts A12 forum for anything related to VIN stickers/decals, and they don't have anything in their archived threads on the subject.  I also asked both Vance Cummins and David Patik if the A12 cars got the stickers, and they both thought that the only '69 cars to receive VIN stickers were the Daytonas.  DC.com member Beep Beep Dave would be a better person to ask than those two guys though, since he runs the Lift-Off Registry and is a bona-fide expert on the 69.5 A12 cars.  I'll ask either him or Frank Badalson when I get a chance.

At any rate, I had said earlier in this post that I remember seeing a 4/27 SPD car with a sticker.  According to David Patik, he does not think that the earliest build-date cars had stickers.  It very well could be that the car I remember seeing had a reproduction sticker applied on a car that shouldn't have had one installed.  Here is his quote in response to the question I asked him:

Hi Gene,

1) Cars that fall into the first one-fourth, or so, of sequential VIN seem to not have VIN door decals.

2) The door VIN decal's application and then removal and then replacement seems to make no sense at all.  I wonder if the memo wasn't referring to the tire pressure decal.  That would make much more sense.

3) 1969 Daytona was the only 1969-model Chrysler product that needed a door VIN.  That's because it was the only new body/car introduced in calendar year 1969, when the door VIN law went into effect.

4)  Never saw another document to or by Creative Industries that mentioned "Vehicle Certification Label."

5) I've not done a study to correlate conversion/ship dates of Daytonas with door VIN presence.  Jodi will begin work on this and many other correlations.  We want to do a full-as-possible matrix of lots of factors like this.  Thanks for the suggestion!

Here was my reply back to David:

David,

The "Vehicle Safety Items Inspection" form from Creative Industries listed the following:

1.  Verify original vehicle certification label has been removed.

The "Special Equipment & Modifications List for Body Components" form from Creative Industries listed the following:

3.  Remove original vehicle certification label & tire pressure decal

Since what I refer to as the "tire pressure decal/label" also lists the "Vehicle Capacity" (in addition to giving the recommended tire pressures), could the "Vehicle Certification" and "Tire Pressure" label/decal indeed be the same label?

On the VIN door decals, I am just hypothesizing here - but the first 1/4 (+/-) of the cars you don't normally see with decals...  The first 100 VIN's have a 427 SPD - and the next batch starts on 514 (with the oddball 287970 and one 5/12 car just to confuse everyone!).  If you think about it, that's 20% of the production.  Could be that those 4/27 cars did not have a sticker, and that someone got worried about the 1970 sticker requirement between 4/27 and 5/15, such that the stickers were applied after that.  Do you have any records of 5/14 SPD cars with the stickers?  There are 79 cars with SPD's of either 514, 515 or 516.  If we knew which cars originally had stickers and which didn't, that would tell us: 1. That Hamtramck was the place of origin for the stickers (and not Creative), and 2. When the sticker installation commenced (so that we could know which cars were supposed to have them and which aren't).

More on this subject to follow as we uncover the facts.

[WINGMAN]

  My Daytona had a build date of 6 5 69 number 92 on the list. and i do not find a sticker or can tell if it ever had one. Someday i wish to do a full rotisserie restoration on it and it might be nice to know if it should have one.   

[69_500]

I would find it odd if the A12 cars had the VIN decals. As they were all completed by the time the first Daytona batch was going through. So if the first of the Daytona's were missing the decal, it would seem to me that the A12 cars didn't get them. Because if they did, then the first batch of Daytona's would have also received them. Just my thoughts.

[nascarxx29]

Dave in canada is the guy to ask when it comes to 69 1/2 cars.

http://www.homestead.com/sixpacksixbbl/index.html

[hemigeno]

Update:

Well, so much for the tentative "No 4/27 built cars had the VIN stickers originally" theory we were thinking about...

Last night I watched one of three 2-hour long videos documenting the teardown & restoration on Chris Sauer's Daytona (356517, 4/27 SPD).  Guess what was on the door edge, larger than life...  Yup, an original VIN sticker.

Apparently, the Scheduled Production Date has no bearing on whether a car did or did not get the label (perhaps apart from VIN  #287970, which I have my own opinions about in the first place).  356517 is a fairly low VIN for a Daytona, and the 926015 SO number is almost as low as they come, so none of those factors apparently mattered.  This car is #399 on the Shipping List, so maybe that has something to do with it.

Still lots more research to do on this topic.

[hemi68charger]

Geno,
Which way was the decal oriented?

[hemigeno]

Geno,
Which way was the decal oriented?

The handiest pic I had of a VIN decal is actually from DodgeDon's website.  The Daytona decals were oriented the same and positioned about the same as any '70 Charger's decal would be - that is, readable from inside the car.

[hemi68charger]

Geno,
Which way was the decal oriented?

The handiest pic I had of a VIN decal is actually from DodgeDon's website.  The Daytona decals were oriented the same and positioned about the same as any '70 Charger's decal would be - that is, readable from inside the car.

 

I was thinking that as well.......... 

[69_500]

So now the question is, does it depend on the scheduled build date? Or rather on the shipment date?

Did the car that Larry Bell owned have the VIN sticker on it? I'll have to call him and ask him. But then again it had been painted purple by the time he owned it.

[hemi68charger]

The problem with this dilemma is 36 years have past... Too many cars with too many change of hands and paint jobs.. It'll be hard to determine for sure, without some sort of Chrysler documentation, the validity of this... Too bad it wasn't a prerequisite to take pictures of doors back in the '70S... 

Guess we're at the mercy of those cars that haven't been restored, or if have, been restored back to it's original condition based on it's "survivorship"....

Troy

[hemigeno]

The problem with this dilemma is 36 years have past... Too many cars with too many change of hands and paint jobs.. It'll be hard to determine for sure, without some sort of Chrysler documentation, the validity of this... Too bad it wasn't a prerequisite to take pictures of doors back in the '70S... 

Guess we're at the mercy of those cars that haven't been restored, or if have, been restored back to it's original condition based on it's "survivorship"....

Troy

Very true statements, Troy.  I still find it interesting to see what information can be scrounged up, as I don't think that the documentation still out there from Chrysler will ever answer all our questions.

Oh- and I just watched the last of the videos of the C.Sauer car restoration - and of course I told you the wrong thing on the VIN sticker orientation.  This last tape shows a closeup of the car's door and it has the sticker readable from outside.  Sorry for the mixup there, Troy.

Even though that Daytona had an SPD of 4/27, the VIN sticker showed a manufacture date of "9/69", and the VIN typing had a gap between "XX29L9B" and the sequence number.  I do wonder if the "manufacture" date gives us a clue that the stickers were installed at Creative Industries based on a projected delivery date to the dealerships...  Nothing firm to go on, that's for sure - just more questions at the moment.

[hemi68charger]

The problem with this dilemma is 36 years have past... Too many cars with too many change of hands and paint jobs.. It'll be hard to determine for sure, without some sort of Chrysler documentation, the validity of this... Too bad it wasn't a prerequisite to take pictures of doors back in the '70S... 

Guess we're at the mercy of those cars that haven't been restored, or if have, been restored back to it's original condition based on it's "survivorship"....

Troy

Very true statements, Troy.  I still find it interesting to see what information can be scrounged up, as I don't think that the documentation still out there from Chrysler will ever answer all our questions.

Oh- and I just watched the last of the videos of the C.Sauer car restoration - and of course I told you the wrong thing on the VIN sticker orientation.  This last tape shows a closeup of the car's door and it has the sticker readable from outside.  Sorry for the mixup there, Troy.

Even though that Daytona had an SPD of 4/27, the VIN sticker showed a manufacture date of "9/69", and the VIN typing had a gap between "XX29L9B" and the sequence number.  I do wonder if the "manufacture" date gives us a clue that the stickers were installed at Creative Industries based on a projected delivery date to the dealerships...  Nothing firm to go on, that's for sure - just more questions at the moment.

Geno.
So the orientation is such that it is 180 degrees from the picture of the '70 Charger that's posted here on the thread? Also, what's the month/year lettering like? Is it like the '70 Charger in that the month is completely spelled out and the year complete?

Thanks Geno !!!

[3--Daytona]

Hemigeno,,, and every body else:::::::::::::;
Question     -----one,, are you guy's refering to what (__I_) call the Federal Safety Sicker,,or a completly different decal with vin no,,date of birth etc on it?  My red and green car's both had  Fed Sf  decal,,,,,blackcar had none.   Had to put one on it to get it out of Canada. None of the three had anything else on the door.

Question---2---Heard a story yesterday of some co, in Iowa has 15 rear glass for Daytona for sale at $1500.00 each. Suppose to have PPGE sticker on them.  Not Iowa Glass. Has anyone else herd of his story?      3-daytona

[69_500]

Not sure what the federal saftey sticker your refering to is Jim.
The one they are talking about shows the VIN and date of the car. Typically I thought they showed the productions date of the cars. But I could be wrong on that.

As far as being able to go back in time and get photo's from the 70's? well that is somewhat possible. I know my dad shot a ton of photo's of weird things on these aero cars from back in the 70's. NOt sure if I recall any of the door jams or not, but I know he took photo's of fender tag's and such even back in the early 70's. I'm sure he wasn't the only one either.

[hemi68charger]

Hemigeno,,, and every body else:::::::::::::;
Question     -----one,, are you guy's refering to what (__I_) call the Federal Safety Sicker,,or a completly different decal with vin no,,date of birth etc on it?  My red and green car's both had  Fed Sf  decal,,,,,blackcar had none.   Had to put one on it to get it out of Canada. None of the three had anything else on the door.

Question---2---Heard a story yesterday of some co, in Iowa has 15 rear glass for Daytona for sale at $1500.00 each. Suppose to have PPGE sticker on them.  Not Iowa Glass. Has anyone else herd of his story?      3-daytona

There he is !!!!! Was getting ready to email you Jim about yout green one....... We're talking about the VIN decal that's on the driver's door with the "date of birth" on it, typically the month and year.......

Hope you're doing well.... I'm getting ready for Christmas with the family and Julie, my 6 month old......

Cheers,
Troy

[3--Daytona]

Troy----69--500;;;;;;;  We are talking about the same decal, without doubt. But,,,I'm not sure that Federal Safety sticker is not a better name for it than vin decal.  If you read the decal( This vechile conforms to all U,S, and Federal Safety Standards in effect on date of Mfg,.)
In my opinion,,,,that decal was put on, not as a vin tag, but as confirmation to the Fed's that Creative Ind,, had not added some unsafe part to the car AFTER it had left the plant.
I got my interpitation of that decal,,,when I called the chief of Border Patrol, to inquire about geeting the black car out of Canada. His exact words---' if that car does not have Federal Safety stecker on it, you will never get it out of Canada,"  That's first thing they looked for .
                                 good nite               3==daytona

[Ghoste]

That makes sense.  Especially if it was going to become a law across the board for 1970 models anyway.

[hemi68charger]

Troy----69--500;;;;;;;  We are talking about the same decal, without doubt. But,,,I'm not sure that Federal Safety sticker is not a better name for it than vin decal.  If you read the decal( This vechile conforms to all U,S, and Federal Safety Standards in effect on date of Mfg,.)
In my opinion,,,,that decal was put on, not as a vin tag, but as confirmation to the Fed's that Creative Ind,, had not added some unsafe part to the car AFTER it had left the plant.
I got my interpitation of that decal,,,when I called the chief of Border Patrol, to inquire about geeting the black car out of Canada. His exact words---' if that car does not have Federal Safety stecker on it, you will never get it out of Canada,"  That's first thing they looked for .
                                 good nite               3==daytona

Ahhhh, I see said the young Mopar-ite to his Master.....    

Thanks Jim.....

[hemigeno]

So the orientation is such that it is 180 degrees from the picture of the '70 Charger that's posted here on the thread?

Yes, that's it.  Again, sorry I got the info screweed up earlier...   

Also, what's the month/year lettering like? Is it like the '70 Charger in that the month is completely spelled out and the year complete?

The date was shown numerically in M/YY format:

9/69

Jim is right about the description of that sticker.  It does have verbage right below the date that says something to the effect of:

"THIS VEHICLE CONFORMS TO ALL APPLICABLE U.S. FEDERAL MOTOR VEHICLE
SAFETY STANDARDS IN EFFECT ON THE DATE OF MANUFACTURE SHOWN ABOVE"

I guess we always look at that sticker to check for VIN information, whereas the Canadian Border Patrol guys (and the US DOT too, back then!) are more interested in the "safety standards" implication.  I remember Jim telling the story about having to put a repro sticker on the door, and smear dirt/grime all over it to make it look original...        Guess it worked!

To me, it seems unlikely that they added the sticker for the sole reason that Creative had modified the vehicles.  Chrysler was very careful to engineer and/or approve every modification made to the cars, and they made both a Chrysler and Creative representative sign off on each modified vehicle.  It could be that's the case, but why didn't they require the stickers for '69 Charger 500's then? 

I think we're back to when the cars debuted at the dealerships - right at the time the 1970 model year cars came out.  In fact, Ford was arguing to ACCUS/Nascar that the Daytona was a 1970 model (and therefore subject to the same production rules as the Superbird), but that argument was shot down.  It was a gray area though, and Chrysler almost certainly erred on the side of caution and slapped the stickers on "just in case".

[nascarxx29]

Theres another type of grey silver decal on the drivers side above the door jamb switch.But doesnt have a vin

[69_500]

I would say that the 500's don't have the sticker because they aren't a mid year production car. Where as the Daytona's and A12 cars were. The 500's were all at Creative by the end of 68, some had already made it to the street by the first of January of 1969. Where as the Daytona's weren't on the street until late in 69 when the 70 models were either out, or just about to come out.

Just my thoughts.

[nascarxx29]

I guess it one of those mopar mysterys for rhyme and reason for the vin door decals.69.I found this picture for you 69 500 where the seat buttons were omitted on my orig daytona just on one side.Another mopar mystery

[hemi68charger]

I guess it one of those mopar mysterys for rhyme and reason for the vin door decals.69.I found this picture for you 69 500 where the seat buttons were omitted on my orig daytona just on one side.Another mopar mystery

That was just plain lazy quality control....... 

[Just 6T9 CHGR]

Theres another type of grey silver decal on the drivers side above the door jamb switch.But doesnt have a vin

Its the safety standards decal...ECS sells them
http://www.ecsautomotive.com/oscmax/product_info.php?products_id=50]

[69_500]

Hey who let the picture of an R/T in this thread? JK

[hemigeno]

I happened to be digging through some pic files, and I came across a pic of Elmer D.'s sticker that was posted in his eBay ad a while back.  This should answer a lot of the format and orientation questions.  Wish I had found this picture earlier!

[nascarxx29]

Thanks Hemi Geno for the 69 daytona decal picture.For some reason in 1970 they changed the font size and the the letter zero had a line in it.Also 70 started the steering colum lock/shift interlock,Maybe the revised decal fonts were a added measure of security.Like the column/interlock also the vin decal voids if its being removed.This is off subject but I had to ask Hemi Geno now that you found all the owners history on your daytona and the motor was changed under warranty.Have you ever heard or seen a piece of documentation that accompied the warranty engine.I seen a 69 super bee from my area and had also had a warranty motor replacement .And in the cars paperwwork it had this document I seen.That went into detail about the motor being changed and dealers name and date was on it.if I run into the guy with the car I will try to get a copy

[hemigeno]

I haven't personally seen warranty documentation like that, but I have heard of similar things before.  I had asked the 2nd owner of my car when I first talked to him  a couple of years ago to dig around and see if he had any paperwork.  I was hoping that he had dealer or Chrysler warranty paperwork like what you mentioned, but he didn't remember keeping anything.  I also contacted the dealership that did the warranty work, which is still in business, but they sorta snickered when I asked about some service work done in the fall of 1973...     "You want whuuuuttt??"

There is also normally a small blue tag rivited to the block denoting a warranty engine.  My replacement block didn't have the tag, and even having it is not concrete evidence of a warranty replacement, since the tags themselves occasionally pop up on eBay.  Almost bought one, but decided not to.  I have a totally different (and date-correct) engine block to put back in the car now, although I intend to keep the '73 block due to its connection with the car.

Dave, If you ever get the chance to copy that documentation, it would be a neat thing to see.

[69_500]

Off topic I know, but did Elmer keep his car, or did someone actually purchase it off of him? I thought he would always own that car. If you've had it since 69 why not keep it until your no longer with us on earth? Thats just my thoughts on the subject.