Hypothetical weapons use question; would it be leagl to...

[AKcharger]

Since I am always surprised at the wisdom dispensed here at DC.com I have one for you guys:

One pal was relating how a co-worker's car was stolen then the criminals drove to the owners house (I guess they got address from papers in the car) and tried to break in with scared wife inside. She called the police and when they saw she'd locked all the doors the thieves left but husband come home from work passed them on the way and turned around and gave chase. To make a long story short they got away and ditched the car. Well it apparently didn't stop there, they had visits at all hours buy people pulling up in their driveway and just parking and sometimes at night when they'd look outside the people would turn on their interior lights and wave guns around in an attempt to scare them (would scare me alright)

OK here's the hypothetical:
If you're in your home, someone parks in your driveway and when you look out they aim a gun at you can you legally engage them?

I immediately thought if that would have been me and my wife that car would have had at least 90 rds of 5.56 pumped in it the moment someone pointed a weapon at me
and thats when I thought...I'll ask my pals at DC.com for comprehensive legal advice!

I know there are all kinds of issues that preclude an easy answer, location is a big one, but in general is this a question of trespassing with intent to do harm (waving guns) and engagement is justified or does the homeown have a duty to retreat from the threat?


Oh, and the end of the real story? They continued to be harassed for weeks. They gave police pictures, video tapes, dates, statements everything, police said they were too busy with bigger issues....nothing happened. He eventually moved on base to avoid thugs (gang members I guess)

So what say you guys?

[bull]

If by "engage" you mean "fire upon" I doubt that's a legal possibility, but then it depends a lot on what state you're in when you "engage" them. There's a big difference between engaging someone in Alabama vs. DC. But then there are less lethal ways of getting your point across to criminals than resorting to the last resort. That situation would have been a good time for your buddy to use his imagination.

[MM1R/T]

Absolutey. Pointing a weapon at someone IS assault. Lethal force is a proportional resonse.

Legal repercussions, as previously mentioned, might vary by geographical location. Any place I've lived west of the Mississipi (excluding California), it is highly unlikely that you would be charged for shooting someone in such a scenario.

[kab69440]

A citizen is not authorized to use lethal force until an intruder is actually inside the home, here in Ohio. Just make sure he/they can't crawl back outside. I'm not completely certain of the rules for a CCW holder away from the home. Oh, and booby traps to protect the home while you are away must also be of non-lethal variety.

[253862656971]

Absolutey. Pointing a weapon at someone IS assault. Lethal force is a proportional resonse.

Legal repercussions, as previously mentioned, might vary by geographical location. Any place I've lived west of the Mississipi (excluding California), it is highly unlikely that you would be charged for shooting someone in such a scenario.

I had a similar situation happen this summer.  Readers digest version:  Guy shows up at our house high as a kite on meth and goes through all the vehicles and tries to get in the house.  Dad hears him and not realizing it was a burglar opens the door.  The guy takes off and we give chase, shotguns and handguns in hand.  We never caught up to him.  After we gave up and came back to the house the cops had already showed up and, seeing we were loaded down with enough firepower to hunt bear, asks us what we were doing.  We said we were trying to chase his ass down.  The cop then asks what we would have done if we caught up to him.  Dad said we would have dealt with that when we caught him.

Basically what the cop was getting at is that if the guy is running away we can't legally shoot him.  That isn't to say if it went to trial we wouldn't get off but, it would be a pretty fine line and very dependent on the judge and jury.  Now, if the guy had crossed the threshold into the house it would have been legal to shoot him, even if he was unarmed.  It would also be legal to shoot him outside if and only if he was behaving in a threatening manner, ie. waving a gun at us as in your friend's situation.

Of couse this is very dependent on location.  I live in good ol' South Dakota where guns rights are revered (I did a count the other day and we have 23).  I assume similar states to us like Wyoming, North Dakota, Montana, etc. have similar laws but I don't know how East or West coast states laws are set up.  

[MorePwr]

PopPopPop.....PopPopPop.....PopPopPop

[Charger_Fan]

I'd shoot first, dispose of the bodies & pretend it never happened...nobody but their drug dealer will miss them.




















J/K

[Drache]

Mainly you must be sure by 100% without and doubt that they are trying to kill you. Mainly, they need to fire upon you with intent to kill. If they are in a car in your driveway and you're in a community, not in the country, that would be a big no no. Cops don't like "non cops" shooting at people in crowded residential neighborhoods. If one of your bullets miss and strikes a home or God forbid an innocent, you're now up shit creek without a paddle and will be prosicuted to the full extent of the law.

Now that's not to say that I wouldn't hide in my neighbors yard with a good rifle with a scope and take a potshot at them from up high like a tree. First off the angle would make the bullet strike your front lawn. Or better yet have a friend in a tree on the opposite side and then have both of you put shots into the hood. That would really give them something to think about, how many armed neighbors are there and how close of a residential hood do you have lol. 

[Todd Wilson]

Thats a tough question to answer. Kab is right and so is MM1RT.   My personal thoughts are if they pull into your drive way with guns its open season on them.   But the courts may not think that way.  Were you really in danger?  They were outside and you were inside the house! The way I understand law in Kansas here if your safety or life is threatened then you can shoot.   But iif you wake up at 3am and look out back and find your garage is open and theres people inside of it stealing your shit  you can not go out there with a gun and kill them. But on the other hand you do have a right to protect yourself and your property.  And if you do smoke someone it better be from the front and you better lay down a knife or a hammer next to their hand before you call the cops. Same thing applies in your house. You confront someone in your house and they turn and run you cant shoot them in the back.


The criminals seem to have more rights then the regular citizen out there.  You can be a law abiding tax paying go to work everyday guy and end up with a manslaughter charge againsts you because some thug came in or on your property for one reason or another and you smoked him. With all the slime ball lawyers out there now focusing on lining their pockets with money they will try and fry your ass over it.



Todd

[Vainglory, Esq.]

It varies state to state, but I believe everywhere except Wisconsin subscribes to the "castle doctrine."  Whether or not that is in effect if the intruder is sitting in your driveway and not attempting to break in is a question I can't answer, but I wouldn't go around shooting them until you know for sure.  I haven't taken criminal law yet, so my legal advice should be taken with a grain of salt anyway.  Perhaps you could consult a lawyer.  Or maybe wait for last426 to chime in.

At this point, however, I wouldn't "engage."

[2Gunz]

Personally I would have let some of my less than sane friends deal with them.

[bull]

Oh, and the end of the real story? They continued to be harassed for weeks. They gave police pictures, video tapes, dates, statements everything, police said they were too busy with bigger issues....nothing happened. He eventually moved on base to avoid thugs (gang members I guess)

Here's the problem in this scenario: "police said they were too busy with bigger issues." They may have been too busy but when someone hands them all the evidence that they need to take care of it, and they don't, that's pretty lame. On the flipside, I heard of one case where a guy was refused police service in a similar situation so he called the cops back and told them he was going to deal with the issue himself using force and they high-tailed it right over.

I think if that had happened to me I would have at least called a tow company and told them there was an illegally parked car I needed towed off my property. I imagine if the tow truck driver had felt threatened when he came to tow the car he would have called the police and they might have been more likely to show up. If it's your property I think you should have the right to remove something/someone from it, especially if it's potentially harmful to you and your family.

[John_Kunkel]

It varies state to state,

Yep, and that's why it's unwise to believe legal advice on car forums.

[bull]

It varies state to state,

Yep, and that's why it's unwise to believe legal advice on car forums.

Indeed!

[d72hemi]

I do not know what the state on UT has to say about it, but all of my training (USAF), tells me that I am OK to engage. The USAF has a tier system to explain/authorize deadly force. If the person(s) has the intent, and the capability to cause serious bodily harm, or death, you have the right to use deadly force yourself. That would be the top tier. I can tell you that if I were in that situation, I would have fired through my window, killing them. I do not play with weapons, nor do I tolerate those that do. I weapon has only one purpose, KILL. If you are going have one, that is your intention. No matter what side of the law you are on. If you have a weapon, and are not ready/able to use it, you better only take it to the target range, and never anywhere else. Because you do not want to find out the "other" person(s) are ready to use theirs.

It varies state to state,

Yep, and that's why it's unwise to believe legal advice on car forums.

Indeed!

but asking for opinions and "what ifs"  are OK in my book.

[dkn1997]

it's not a crime if you drag him into your house after you shoot him....

[AKcharger]

Thanks Guys good discussion, I am a weapons collector but not a vigilante. My Rules of Engagement (and what I told the wife) is if someone breaks in make sure sure the family is in one room, lock the door and call the cops...If he/she tries to enter the room then they will be terminated (with extreme prejudice) but the car in the drive-way scenario bothered me because I never thought of it...how brazen!  I have an Alaska CCW license and learned a lot such as:
- Must be a threat of life
-To emphasis over and over to police and bystanders "I was never so scared in my life" when I used deadly force
- Empty the magazine into target, do not wound, like d72 said, if you pull out a weapon it is to kill the target(s) 
- Have a good attorney 

Oh, in case your curious place was unfortunately Anchorage about 8 months ago. Luckily my family lives on the Air Force Base there so people with Machine guns are guarding them (I'm still in Korea) so this is an unlikely scenario but still pissed me off.

- Thanks 1997, but since there was 2 of them in the guys situation two blood trails from the car to the house might be suspicious obvious

- Bull Tow truck is good but I don't think they would stayed long enough, supposedly just pulled in beeped horn, flipped them off for 2-3 min then left

- 2gunz I think yours is the best so far

[Plumcrazy]

There's some interesting reading here.  http://www.packing.org/

[azraelck]

I was informed by a cop, that you have to have legitimate belief that your life or someone else's is in danger. Later, cops in the family confirmed this, in both Miss and Tenn. Your state may vary; and your best bet is to talk to your local law enforcement agency. You have a constitutionally protected right to own and bear arms for your and your family's defense; as well as the defense of your country. In fact, I feel you are obligated to at least have some skill with firearms as duty to your country; in case of need. Regardless of whether you own a gun or not. But you are also obligated to follow your local laws regarding such. And as always, use of deadly force is the extreme last resort. NEVER a first resort. Many encounters can be resolved without use of deadly force; and you must make your decision carefully. When you kill someone, it can't be undone.

Another thing, is that there may be repercussions; even if you are in the right. In Memphis, a man shot an intruder; who was armed and threatening his life. He was not charged. However, the man he shot belonged to a local gang, and they took it upon themselves to exact vengance. Three times they enacted drive bys on that house; and twice they tried to torch it. The man who acted in self defense was forced out of the home and neighborhood he was in because he didn't allow himself to be murdered. They torched his house the night after he moved.

As to me, if there was two guys out front waving guns around, they'd get shot. however, I would not, I repeat, NOT use a rifle. I would use the .38 in my desk. It's done that very job at least three times in defense of the family over the century that we've had it. I intend to purchase a .380ACP for CCW or home defense.  A rifle is simply too powerful; even a .22LR is capable to killing out to 100-125m. I've even heard of kills in hunting at 200m with that little cartridge. A full powered rifle, such as the 7.5mm MAS36 I own, is capable of killing out to 600-800m. Maybe more, but my eyesight couldn't allow me to see a target well enough beyond that range to hit on iron sights. While my front yard is large enough that the nearest house in front is beyond accepted ranges for the .22LR, I would not risk it. 

For home defense, may I recommend a shotgun. Even bird shot at the close quarters a home defense would occur at will easily drop a person; while lacking the range and energy to possibly injure bystanders. Plus, the internationally recognized sign of "Get the F@$! out of my house!" is the sound of a shotgun being pumped. A lot of people like the Carbine-style rifles as well; though I do not. The SKS is good for 200-300m, though it's bayonet is a good deterrent all on it's own. My MAS' bayonet has already terrified some Mexicans accidentally; when I fixed it while showing the rifle to my cousin, a US Army 2nd LT. And I didn't even notice that they were over there.

Contact your local athorities, and ask them. Here we can't tell you, because it varies state to state, and even city to city. All I or anyone else can offer is how our own areas operate, not yours.

[AKcharger]

I agree Azraelck, Local laws are everything...this is just a general discussion. I kinda agree with the  pistol statement but it is sure nice to know you're going into a fight with MORE firepower than the bad guys, not equal or less...somthing about 30rds makes me real comfortable

Cool site Plumcrazy!

[dkn1997]

the internationally recognized sign of "Get the F@$! out of my house!" is the sound of a shotgun being pumped.

That is so true.

[Ghoste]

Several years ago when I was living out of town, I found myself in my hometown one weekend and for whatever reason, decided late in the evening to stay at my parents place.  I drove out to the farm and since it was very late (like 2 or 3 in the morning late), I was carefully sneaking in the house so as to not wake my parents.  As I was creeping down the hallway, I heard a click.  I stopped and very softly said "hello?".  My father flipped on the hall light as he lowered his handgun and put the safety back on.
It was a sobering moment for us both and a close call, so know your target.

[Lord Warlock]

In situations like this, its good to be a florida resident.  They passed a law in the last 4 years that allows us to use deadly force if we "believe" we are in fear of our lives.   Does not have to be at our house either, can be in the car, on the road etc.  I've always held the opinion that I wouldn't shoot anyone unless they came into our house while we were home.  Blatent disrespect of personal property deserves a strict response.  Before the recent law was passed we could only shoot to kill if an intruder was armed and threatening you inside your house, and even then, it wasn't uncommon to get sued by the intruder. 

All i can say is that if i catch anyone in my house, they won't leave, and they get a free souvenier from our silverware drawer.  If they sneak around to the back door, there is plenty of warning as I have a silouette from my last target practice hanging next to the door, showing 8 shot groupings to the heart, neck and head.  If they can survive the first clip of hollowpoints, i doubt they will the 2nd or 3rd. 

[73dodge]

In a situation like that it's best to have pictures of every thug in the car, document the car and the times they showed up at your house. If then anything happens you can go directly to the police with your evidence.

I would also let the cops know that if they refuse to look into the problem the first time anything out of the ordinary happens i would tell them that you are going to talk to the local news station, they love doing stories like this.

[azraelck]

I agree Azraelck, Local laws are everything...this is just a general discussion. I kinda agree with the  pistol statement but it is sure nice to know you're going into a fight with MORE firepower than the bad guys, not equal or less...somthing about 30rds makes me real comfortable

Cool site Plumcrazy!

Believe me; having a 30 round magazine is nice to have; but would you want to be responsible for your buddy next door getting a 7.62mm x 39mm in the head or heart? How about a .223? And Forget .30-06 or 8mm Mauser, or 7.5mm x 54mm French. My MAS has sights out to 1200 meters. Unless your in an apartment; buckshot won't likely get that far. And you can get semi-auto shotguns if you want the capacity and ROF. While i'm not very much into shotguns outside of defensive purposes; I'm sure you can even get a clip-fed one.

[bull]

I would also let the cops know that if they refuse to look into the problem the first time anything out of the ordinary happens i would tell them that you are going to talk to the local news station, they love doing stories like this.

That's not a bad idea. Call the TV news people and tell them the situation. Most news agencies love to point out flaws in the local law enforcement agency and I would think being held hostage in your own house by hooligans in the driveway would be of great interest to them and the general public.

[BB1]

Two words,.... Pit Bull. 

[MichaelRW]

The cop's response to you is absolute BS. Call your councilman, even the Mayor's office and explain your situation and that you feel threatened. In addition to the local TV news station call or write the local newspaper.

[TNT300]

The cop's response to you is absolute BS. Call your councilman, even the Mayor's office and explain your situation and that you feel threatened. In addition to the local TV news station call or write the local newspaper.

Without knowing the laws in every state, this is the best( and safest )  advise yet

[Lowprofile]

Engagement with Extreme Prejudice the first time, and you never have to worry about the next time.  Tossing a nice Molotov cocktail upon the offenders mode of transportation followed up by a few well placed shots from my Wilson Combat modified Remmington 700 would /should be enough to show these scum bags you are not afraid & are willing to fight/defend yourself and your family/home.

Remember, 99% of all criminals/punks/dirtbags/etc....  are cowards themselves. They look to prey on someone weaker than themselves. The other 1% are lunatics and should be put down ASAP......  Happy Hunting.

[CFMopar]

Two words,.... Pit Bull. 

Why? So they can shoot the dog?

In situations like this I like to ask wwcnd? (what would chuck norris do?) Left and right round house kicks from his left and right legs named law and order

But seirously this is a pretty fu*ked up secnario... Me personally. I'd have my buddy cover me and I'd confront them. Just stay out your friends line of shot

[Dave22443]

A friend of mine went through a simular situation with a rental property he was in.  In his case, when he was confronted by the neighborhood thugs in the car, he simply stepped out onto the porch and fired 3 rounds of .308 into the air.  They got the message, nobody got hurt and he never had a problem with them again.

A slightly different situation:  Some relatives of mine, whom will remain un-named, were living in a particularly rough apartment complex and didn't exactly "fit in" if you know what I mean.  The first week they were there, their car was trashed and the wheels were stolen off it right in their own parking spot.  So that weekend, they decided to drink a few beers and do some target shooting in the back yard (their empty beer cans stacked on the back fence of the complex).  From that night forward, they could leave their keys in the car and nobody would touch it!  And amazingly enough, nobody called the cops either!    (special note: even the cops wouldn't go there without a SWAT truck)

Moral of the story - Sometimes a good show of force is all thats really needed.

Oh, and as for me?  I live in the country, so I don't have those problems 

[moparsuebear]

I'd open my gun safe, pull out the ol FAL, load it up with 7.62x51mm ammo and play duck hunt. Woooooheeeee!!!  AKcharger would be so proud!!!! Love you Bill!

-Susan

[BB1]

Then you can get them for discharging a fire arm, and animal cruelty.

[AKcharger]

I'd open my gun safe, pull out the ol FAL, load it up with 7.62x51mm ammo and play duck hunt. Woooooheeeee!!! 

Good Girl, you even got the cartridge size right...I'm proud!

FAL wouln't be a BAD choice but remember it only has a 20rd magazine as opposed to the 30rd in the AR, plus for you the recoil might make it a bit hard to place all the rounds in center mass of the targets from muzzle climb...BUT those 147gr 7.62 bullets from the FAL would do a lot more damage than those lil' 55gr 5.56's bullets from the AR.  Now if you'd let me buy that $9500 .50 Cal Sniper rifle from the BX, that's ideal for home defense!

See ya' soon!

[azraelck]

My fiance and I intend to buy the ultimate in home defense once we get a house with some land.



I seriously doubt anyone wants to look down the barrel of a 75mm main gun, backed by 3 .30-06 Machine guns and one .50cal AAMG.

But seriously, I do not recommend a high-powered rifle or assault weapon for home defense. And while you may have 20-30 rounds in an assault weapon, you have greater risk of injuring or killing an innocent bystander, much much greater. Accurate shot placement is a MUST for those kinds of weapons; spray and pray is for video games. Use the right gun for the job and the terrain. Two rounds of buckshot from your front porch will end the matter clearly, without sending pellets flying into your neighbor's kids as they watch TV. As a plus, shot placement means getting it in the general direction of your target.

One more thing, if you have to dig through the gun safe, you might just be dead. If you have to load it, especially a magazine, your really asking for it. If your keeping a home defense weapon, load the damn thing. Then fix the bayonet. Have it ready to go; when you need it, not afterwards. If your so concerned about kids getting ahold of it, then you obviously didn't raise them right. For 5 generations we've had the same loaded .38 sitting where anyone can reach it. not once has it been picked up without permission by a young one. We don't let brats in the house, so no issues there. We have a gun safe but it's never locked. Doesn't even have a lock anymore. Closest to keeping a gun 'locked' is I used to keep the magazine to my little .22LR rifle in top of the closet, while the rifle itself sat in a corner. Always kept it loaded; in fact, until recently all guns remain loaded and ready to go. 

[greenpigs]

More of the same from me:

Are you sure it was a real firearm?

Smoking someone and finding out it was a pellet gun after the fact will not do you much good. I am not sure if a pellet gun even matters(as a "firearm") but unless your shot in the eye\ear you should live. Call the cops and let them deal with the punks and if possible get the licences plate number and a good description of the car for them.

[Dave22443]

As it was already stated, the cops WERE called and replied with a "too busy, your not important enough" response.  The last time I had a cop tell me that I kindly reminded him that the only reason I call him is to do the paperwork, which I never was good at.

To me, it doesn't matter if the gun being displayed was real or plastic.  In a car, at night, under a dome light, its hard to tell.  In the end, it makes no difference.  They're advertising their intent.  You can't sit there and ask yourself if you feel lucky.  You lock, load and do a little advertising of your own.  Maybe you feel threatened and you let fly the rounds through the windshield?  Maybe you feel more kindly and send a round or two into orbit? Or maybe you just take aim and smile?  Either way is OK with me.  Its your call.  I'd rather be in jail alive then dead and gone. 

Besides, if they kill you, what's to stop them from killing your family next?

[AKcharger]

One more thing, if you have to dig through the gun safe, you might just be dead. If you have to load it, especially a magazine, your really asking for it.

Agree 100% My family lives on a military base guarded by people with machine guns, so all my weapons are locked up and unloaded (magazines to to avoid spring wear) we are not concerned with thugs now...just when we own our own home...and I do agree a shoutgun is best, I just have all these cool assault rifles going to waste!

Guys - the real vs. toy gun is a good thought, if the situation was a one off occurrence I'd just call the cops and think they were idiots. But with a pattern or harassment it's reasonable to suspect their motives and weapons are sincere

[moparsuebear]

I'd open my gun safe, pull out the ol FAL, load it up with 7.62x51mm ammo and play duck hunt. Woooooheeeee!!! 

Good Girl, you even got the cartridge size right...I'm proud!

Well baby, to be honest..... I had help from our 17 yr old twin sons on what gun and ammo to use. You should be proud of yourself that you taught them in the ways of weapons so well!!! Go NRA and Bill!!!! I'll see you in one week!!! "I'm leaving on a jet plane......" I love you!!!

[bull]

You know, accidents happen all the time. I read somewhere that most accidents happen within the home or just a few miles within a certain radius of the home. I think if this were happening to me there would be an "accident" of some sort happening right in my own driveway. A gasoline spill followed by an accidental ignition, a propane bottle dropped onto a windshield, a ladder with an open can of red paint falling, a mislaid Molotov cocktail, a deep-fried turkey spilling onto a nearby car, even the accidental discharge of a weapon while cleaning. There are a number of ways to "accidentally" deal with this problem.

[AKcharger]

You know, accidents happen all the time. I read somewhere that most accidents happen within the home or just a few miles within a certain radius of the home. I think if this were happening to me there would be an "accident" of some sort happening right in my own driveway. A gasoline spill followed by an accidental ignition, a propane bottle dropped onto a windshield, a ladder with an open can of red paint falling, a mislaid Molotov cocktail, a deep-fried turkey spilling onto a nearby car, even the accidental discharge of a weapon while cleaning. There are a number of ways to "accidentally" deal with this problem.

I never thought about it that way?

[DodgeByDave]

I am not a lawyer but,

In Indiana; once a weapon is produced in public (BB gun, baseball bat, a stick off the street, whatever) all bets are off. It's shoot first and ask question later.

In or on your private property, all you have to feel is threatened to be able to use deadly force. And the old wives tail of don't let them off your property/ drag them back on is just that. An old wives tail.

IMHO every citizen should be aware of what the laws are in regards to self defense. In Indiana, the Supreme Court (state) ruled that just because a suspect is retreating DOES NOT diminish the threat to the victim, even if they (the suspect) are wounded. However an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, and even if your shoot was by the book that still does not preclude the possibility of civil suit by the suspect for civil rights violations. Aye, theres a new rub on the deal.

Your choice of tools for self defence will play a big part in how your shoot is adjudicated. Your local prosecutor is the one whom determines if charges are filed or not, not the police. The police investigate and submit evidence and most likely DA will go by their recommendations. However, you must remember that these guys are elected officials and won't hesitate to make a political statement at your expense about your demon gun and how this is proof of the evils of firearms. And if you pull that fancy poodle shooter AR-15 in a defense situation and accidental shoot an innocent bystander, you're most likely to be prosecuted for criminal recklessness at least and manslaughter/ 3rd degree murder at worst. Consider this: I have an AR-15 in 9mm and a Marlin Camp 9 (9mm) both have the same magazine size (20 round), same cal. (9mm) but the shoots by both weapons would be adjudicated differently based on the appearance of the weapon alone.

I'm not sorry if this offends anyone but rifles are a poor choice for home/self defence. Lots of factors play a role here; weapon size, caliber, bullet weight, powder charge, bullet type, etc.. The rifle tends to chamber a higher powered round than the hand gun or shotgun and therefore the odds of an over penetration situation increase exponentially. The rifle cartridge also tend to use a jacketed conical ammunition that whilst generating optimal bullet deformation in game they were designed for (in the case of .223, shooting poodles), most will not deform with any degree of acceptable performance in human targets. My G-3 stays in the gun safe all locked up nice and warm and safe while my mossberg pump is at the ready. First round buckshot, second round gas, third round a smoker, forth round deer slug. And for anybody that may want to stick around, the fifth round is a dragon's breath. You don't swat flies with a sledgehammer.

In my Glock 17, I load with Federal Hydra-Shok frangible ammunition. Once penetration is achieved the bullet shrapnel's into 6 pcs for increased trauma and tissue damage. Winchester Black Talons and Remington Ny-Clads are also good choices but availability my be limited or restricted by law in your area as commercially available ready to fire cartage. But if you load your own like I do you can buy the bullets in bulk so the restrictions are moot. Again, do the right thing and play it straight. But remember the right thing changes from state to state.

In my SA XD, I use Glazier Safety Slugs. The gelatin encapsulation prevents the shot from pounding out the barrel so you get a nice compact sawed-off shotgun without the class 3 hassles.

Don't forget that in todays modern world there are less than lethal alternative ammo choices like bean bag rounds, rubber ball rounds, nets, gas, etc. Be creative.

And lets not forget the other choices in self defence like tasers and pepper spray. I used to be in charge of security at a major bar here in Indianapolis and I can tell you from first hand knowledge that even the toughest drunk or drug addict ain't gonna be so tuff once squirted with OC. Get it in they're eyes,nose and mouth. I use the Sabre Red in LEO strength with an ultraviolet dye for ID later if needed.

Home defense is just like working on our cars, and I don't think there is anyone of us that has only one tool in the tool box.

Be safe, shoot safe.

DBD

[bull]

I'm not sorry if this offends anyone but rifles are a poor choice for home/self defence. DBD

Not if you're sniping from the upstairs window.

[MorePwr]

.458 Win Mag...line the bad guys up in a row

[azraelck]

I'm more disturbed by the fact that several members are treating this as a joke. Firearms are not a joke. Laws are tough; and liberals are trying to repeal the right to bear arms. If you use a rifle for home defense you need to go to jail. Your likely the same kind that shoots at anything that moves while hunting; without making sure the target is a deer. My rifle is a military rifle; it has a grenade launching attachment. The sights go out to 1200 meters. Twelve-Hundred. It is not as powerful as a .308, only slightly more powerful than a .30-30. A Mosin-Nagant M1891/30 has sights that range up to 2000 meters. Two-thousand. It fires a round that is ballistically similar to the .30-06. Assault rifles have ranges from 300-500 meters. The original assault rifle; the StG44; had a range out to 500 meters.

A .30-30 is good out to 150 yards; and it's one of the shortest range rifle cartridges I can think of. Even a .22LR is able to kill out to 100 yards. I've heard estimates out to 200yards with the .17 WMR.   

RIFLES ARE DANGEROUS! It is not a joke. Legal issues are not a joke. When the range is measured in feet, a weapon designed to reach out hundreds of yards is NOT what you use. You use a weapon that is designed to dissipate enrgy rapidly; like a shotgun; with a short effective range. Most handguns can reach out up to 25 yards away; but the short barrel length couple with the short cartridge means they have far far less energy.

If you are sniping, then it is not home defense. You're just waiting for some slob to appear so you can shoot him. Sniping is done by the military; not a law abiding citizen! Sniping is not used for home defense!

[moparsuebear]

I'm more disturbed by the fact that several members are treating this as a joke. Firearms are not a joke. Laws are tough; and liberals are trying to repeal the right to bear arms. If you use a rifle for home defense you need to go to jail. Your likely the same kind that shoots at anything that moves while hunting; without making sure the target is a deer. My rifle is a military rifle; it has a grenade launching attachment. The sights go out to 1200 meters. Twelve-Hundred. It is not as powerful as a .308, only slightly more powerful than a .30-30. A Mosin-Nagant M1891/30 has sights that range up to 2000 meters. Two-thousand. It fires a round that is ballistically similar to the .30-06. Assault rifles have ranges from 300-500 meters. The original assault rifle; the StG44; had a range out to 500 meters.

A .30-30 is good out to 150 yards; and it's one of the shortest range rifle cartridges I can think of. Even a .22LR is able to kill out to 100 yards. I've heard estimates out to 200yards with the .17 WMR.   

RIFLES ARE DANGEROUS! It is not a joke. Legal issues are not a joke. When the range is measured in feet, a weapon designed to reach out hundreds of yards is NOT what you use. You use a weapon that is designed to dissipate enrgy rapidly; like a shotgun; with a short effective range. Most handguns can reach out up to 25 yards away; but the short barrel length couple with the short cartridge means they have far far less energy.

If you are sniping, then it is not home defense. You're just waiting for some slob to appear so you can shoot him. Sniping is done by the military; not a law abiding citizen! Sniping is not used for home defense!

and I bet before you go to bed every night you quote the rifle pledge....."this is my gun....."

Obviosly you don't have a family home alone while like we are while my husband serves in Korea for one year. If I had to rely solely on my 9mm Makarov handgun or 357 magnum revolver that requires a steady aim for home defense, I would not feel as safe as I do now with an entire gun safe aresenal of rifles and shot guns at my dispospal! If there was a situation with a criminal in my home, I would be so nervous that I would not be able to safely control a handgun. I would need the power of a rifle or shotgun that doesn't require such accurate aiming.

Oh, and just because one chooses a rifle over a handgun does not make them an idiotic hunter! I am a proud member of the NRA and take gun safety very seriously. This thread was meant to be humerous. Sometimes people just get way too serious.  And oh, my target would be a moose, not a deer! LOL

-Susan

[MorePwr]

I'm more disturbed by the fact that several members are treating this as a joke. Firearms are not a joke. Laws are tough; and liberals are trying to repeal the right to bear arms. If you use a rifle for home defense you need to go to jail. Your likely the same kind that shoots at anything that moves while hunting; without making sure the target is a deer. My rifle is a military rifle; it has a grenade launching attachment. The sights go out to 1200 meters. Twelve-Hundred. It is not as powerful as a .308, only slightly more powerful than a .30-30. A Mosin-Nagant M1891/30 has sights that range up to 2000 meters. Two-thousand. It fires a round that is ballistically similar to the .30-06. Assault rifles have ranges from 300-500 meters. The original assault rifle; the StG44; had a range out to 500 meters.

A .30-30 is good out to 150 yards; and it's one of the shortest range rifle cartridges I can think of. Even a .22LR is able to kill out to 100 yards. I've heard estimates out to 200yards with the .17 WMR.   

RIFLES ARE DANGEROUS! It is not a joke. Legal issues are not a joke. When the range is measured in feet, a weapon designed to reach out hundreds of yards is NOT what you use. You use a weapon that is designed to dissipate enrgy rapidly; like a shotgun; with a short effective range. Most handguns can reach out up to 25 yards away; but the short barrel length couple with the short cartridge means they have far far less energy.

If you are sniping, then it is not home defense. You're just waiting for some slob to appear so you can shoot him. Sniping is done by the military; not a law abiding citizen! Sniping is not used for home defense!

I find it more disturbing that some are using this thread to show off their firearm knowledge or lack of,(25 yards? thats a bbgun) and toys in or out of their safes. grenade launcher...wtf?...creepy! let me guess you go to the shooting range dressed up in a swat uniform

Assuming that people who aren't uptight about guns, as you apparently are. are unknowledgeable or reckless, is just plain dumb .

I'll translate my posts for you.                                    translation:                                          or:
first one:  POPPOPPOP POPPOPPOP POPPOPPOP         three consecutive three round bursts       :iagree:shoot!

second post: Line up the bad guys for the .458           Save bullets                                            Funny!


If anyone here is stupid enough to take those posts seriously then..... oops sorry didn't mean to call anyone stupid

would the use of my .458 on my 24 acre wooded property be a bad choice for home defence? it is always handy for bear.I know it's a rifle but, so?  A scenario maybe you hadn't thought of?

Bottom line is, if I need to defend, I'm going to defend, with whatever! aim, don't miss and choose your backdrops.
if unsure about the last part, practice practice practice!

[AKcharger]

Yeah, you tell 'em!!

[azraelck]

One at a time here:

Moparsuebear: Aside from a bad attempt to insult me and turn the taking of a life into a video game; two things; first off; this thread never was about hunting. If you think home defense and hunting are the same, then you need help. Second, to say a rifle does not need accuracy is beyond stupid. You fire from the hip, unless you've practiced a lot; your just as likely to miss with a rifle as a pistol. Difference being is your irresponsibility has put everyone around you in danger. And to say you NEED the "power of a rifle" in a situation that distances are measured in feet, not yards; is equally stupid. The AK47 as an effective range out to 300m, or somewhere over 900 feet. Do you have well over 900 feet to give yourself when your shot misses? Howabout when it punches clean through the intruder and goes out a back wall and into your nieghbor's home? Rifle bullets are very high velocity compared to a psitol or shotgun. In the case of the AK47's 7.62x39; it fires a 123 grain FMJ bullet at a muzzle velocity of 2329 fps. The FAL fires a much heavier 168 grain bullet at 2680fps; assuming it's 7.62x51mm NATO.What do you think the energy at 7 feet is in that little bullet? The velocity? Do you think that that round magically stops as soon as it hits something? It doesn't, it slows down first; just like your Charger does when you apply the brake. Damage is done by the bullet deforming; but at such high velocities, and close ranges; more often than not you'll have the same problem that the brits had with their .303 round when international convention banned use of hollowpoint or their 'dum dum' bullets. The bullets went clean through the target, and the target kept coming. And that was at combat ranges; not home defense ranges. It wasn't until later that they developed a round that caused significant injury to the target. Instead of expanding; it tumbed through the target like a buzzsaw; and exit wounds were a gorey affair.

This thread was not meant to be joking; the original topic was about a threat to the man's family; and what his response should be. Saying it's humerous jsut shows how ignorant you are. Your not going to be anyless nervous or scared with a rifle than with a shotgun (which, I recommended, if your were literate enough to note). And while a shotgun or pistol won't have the energy to penetrate two walls and a person even at the close ranges entailed in a home defense; a rifle most likely will. We had a hole straight through our entire house where somebody fired through it. Longways. The interior holes are still there. Whats more, is it was a varmit rifle; small bore. Don't tell me I don't know what I'm talknig about.

Morepwr: Childish insults the only way you have to refute actual fact? Are you fapping to your "owning" me? Or is it "Pwn" now; I'm too old for that crap anymore. I bought my M1938/51 because I collect military rifles, you twit. I don't go to the range in a swat outfit, or military outfit. I go in a tshirt, jeans, and boots. If it's cold, I'll wear a jacket. The rifle was built with the attachment long before I bought it; and I see no reason to take it off; since it doesn't affect the gun's preformance. I'm getting an M1891/30 Mosin Nagant soon as well; maybe an M1944 Carbine if I feel like it. Because I want to own a piece of history, and to enjoy firing a finely made firearm. I rarely hunt; and I say a prayer that I don't ever have to kill anyone. While you may find it a glorious and grand thing; worthy of fun and excitement; I'm not so barbaric. I don't even like hunting unless the animal will be entirely used. When it comes to human lives; I'm infinitely more cautious. I don't despise my nieghbors to the point that firing a big bore rifle straight at them is what I want to do; and I'm responsible enough to make sure even when firing the weapon that's served this family for 5 generations in the role; that I hit what I aim at.

Yes, pistol's tend to have a short effective range. One of the highest velocity pistols I've seen (not more powerful, actually) is a .45 caliber round that from a M1911-style pistol reaches average speeds in excess of 1200 fps. Over a thousand feet per second slower than the short, lightweight 7.62x39 in an AK. Barrel length is a big culprit; a number of pistol rounds are far more capable in a rifle; more of the powder is actually used to propel the bullet, rather than creating a big bang and flash. I find 25 yards to be a generic safe groud, though some can be effective at lnoger, or shorter, ranges. Given that your not operating within a range of yards, but feet, is always a consideration. Not everyone has enough land to fire a rifle and know they won't hit a person due to the distances over their land. So that argument is nulled immediately. Asides from that, you fire your rifle; and guess what, that 2200fps bullet went through the guy and struck your wife. Whoops. Despite your claims to grandeur and desire to find someone to shoot; in a home defense, your scared shitless. You can barely think. And your not going to notice that someone might be on the other side of your target.  Talking about lining them up for a single shot with a 458 just proves my point. Just because it's not a big bore rifle doesn't mean it won't punch clean through.

Yeah, I'm uptight. I don't treat a tool used to kill a person as a joke (read it, if your literate enough, and see that it is a tool USED to kill, not something that kills on it's own); nor do I view combat, or having to fight in defense of your life, as humerous, glorious, or grand. Unlike you, I was taught early on what a gun can do. I was shooting when I was walking. And I know that even the lowliest of cartridges is designed to kill. If anyone is stupid, dumb, ignorant, and just plain retarded enough to make a joke of killing another human being; then that's their problem. I'm just glad I don't live near you, so I won't get another rifle round tearing through my walls. And if I actually go hunting, I won't have to worry about walking next to a bush, and getting automatic fire from an M16 in response to the leaves rustling.

For the record; this is a been there done that for me. The gun I have in my desk is older than any member on this site; in fact, most likely it's older than any two. There's not many old enough to have lived when it was made. And for 5 generations; it has served the family well; in the last three, it has been used 4 times; once by me. I trust my life and the life of my family to this revolver, and it's never let us down once. I grew up in a neighborhood where the house next door was a crack house, and drive by shootings were common. Even out here, where a rifle bullet came through our wall one night; it hasn't been quiet. The one time I fired a gun out of necessity was out here in the country. I know I have a personal responsibility with every round I fire, to ensure that if does not endanger anyone other than my intended target.  This is a legal and moral responsibility that anyone who owns a firearm has. People like you two, who trivialize self defense and view it as a grand, glorious affair, are what gives gun owners and rights activists a bad name. There are things that don't need to be given in a light of humor. There is nothing good about it. Nothing grand, nothing glorious. Your scared shitless; and you have a split second to react. And your engaged in the killing of another human being. It's not funny, cute or humerous. To view it as such is beyond stupid.

Have you ever though about the lawsuits filed? Howabout when your going before a judge, to explain why you 'happened' to have a scoped hunting rifle up in your attic "just in case". "Do you care to explain to the jury, why you thought it necessary to have a fully automatic weapon sitting in your home, without the proper liscense; and why you felt that this poor man who says he was walking up to ask to use your phone needed to have his legs cut off buy fully automatic fire? Do you? You were just waiting to try out that assault rifle weren't you? WEREN'T YOU!"

Have fun with 'Bubba'.

[MorePwr]

One at a time here:


Have fun with 'Bubba'.

Wow! you are a long winded one!

" Are you fapping to your "owning" me? Or is it "Pwn" now"           What Are You Talking About?

"Have you ever though about the lawsuits filed? Howabout when your going before a judge, to explain why you 'happened' to have a scoped hunting rifle up in your attic "just in case". "Do you care to explain to the jury, why you thought it necessary to have a fully automatic weapon sitting in your home, without the proper liscense; and why you felt that this poor man who says he was walking up to ask to use your phone needed to have his legs cut off buy fully automatic fire? Do you? You were just waiting to try out that assault rifle weren't you? WEREN'T YOU!" "

Dude, you realy need to cut back on the drinking


"Talking about lining them up for a single shot with a 458 just proves my point. Just because it's not a big bore rifle doesn't mean it won't punch clean through."

Oh my lord!  Does somebody want clue this Moron in, on what a .458 win mag is?   maybe then He'll get the joke.



Hey are you seeing red  



I know quit joking....this is serious business.

[AKcharger]

One at a time here:
Moparsuebear: Aside from a bad attempt to insult me and turn the taking of a life into a video game....blah blah blah blah

Well tell you what there Skipper, people ARE going to insult you (and moparsubear zinged you pretty good ) when you:
1) Go off on tangents that no one can follow
2) Pompously try dispense your weapons wisdom
3) Tell other people they're opinions are wrong

I asked a discussion question and we're all having serious conversation with some occasional fun thrown in...If the subject is too emotional stay away from this post and go visit the other places on the board, lots of cool things to do and see here on DC.com, no sense getting worked up   

- Can't we all just get along  Rodney King 1991

[DodgeByDave]

Yep, this is the internets

And I haven't seen a bigger collection of fools than what has been collected on the internet.

Big guns and keyboard bravado aren't going to protect you or your family. The criminal element has guns too. And a 5' 9" 180 lb. street thug is by far tougher physically and mentally than half of you put together. He is more experienced at fighting and violence. It doesn't matter to him if the bullet does anything or not. His lawyer will have him out of jail before the paperwork is done.

The one thing I tried to get across in my post is use your brain. What eventually wins the day is superior intellect and common sense.
Thats your biggest advantage over the criminal element. Why not use it.

Bullets tend to do crazy things once the powder starts to burn. Its a point in history that can change life to death. Sometimes you get a round that for whatever reason flies all crazy. Or one that doesn't fire at all. You must be a bad ass if you want to take on Murphy. Frankly, I'm not that tough.

Guess what. Nothing is more pathetic than tough guys crying  saying I'm sorry. I didn't mean to.

We have a police officer or 2 that prowl this board. Frankly I'd appreciate it if some of you would stop wasting bandwidth and let one of them have a say.

DBD

[CFMopar]

And a 5' 9" 180 lb. street thug is by far tougher physically and mentally than half of you put together. He is more experienced at fighting and violence.

Well That dosnt sound to bad  I think I can handle that