Hypothetical weapons use question; would it be leagl to...

[AKcharger]

Since I am always surprised at the wisdom dispensed here at DC.com I have one for you guys:

One pal was relating how a co-worker's car was stolen then the criminals drove to the owners house (I guess they got address from papers in the car) and tried to break in with scared wife inside. She called the police and when they saw she'd locked all the doors the thieves left but husband come home from work passed them on the way and turned around and gave chase. To make a long story short they got away and ditched the car. Well it apparently didn't stop there, they had visits at all hours buy people pulling up in their driveway and just parking and sometimes at night when they'd look outside the people would turn on their interior lights and wave guns around in an attempt to scare them (would scare me alright)

OK here's the hypothetical:
If you're in your home, someone parks in your driveway and when you look out they aim a gun at you can you legally engage them?

I immediately thought if that would have been me and my wife that car would have had at least 90 rds of 5.56 pumped in it the moment someone pointed a weapon at me
and thats when I thought...I'll ask my pals at DC.com for comprehensive legal advice!

I know there are all kinds of issues that preclude an easy answer, location is a big one, but in general is this a question of trespassing with intent to do harm (waving guns) and engagement is justified or does the homeown have a duty to retreat from the threat?


Oh, and the end of the real story? They continued to be harassed for weeks. They gave police pictures, video tapes, dates, statements everything, police said they were too busy with bigger issues....nothing happened. He eventually moved on base to avoid thugs (gang members I guess)

So what say you guys?

[bull]

If by "engage" you mean "fire upon" I doubt that's a legal possibility, but then it depends a lot on what state you're in when you "engage" them. There's a big difference between engaging someone in Alabama vs. DC. But then there are less lethal ways of getting your point across to criminals than resorting to the last resort. That situation would have been a good time for your buddy to use his imagination.

[MM1R/T]

Absolutey. Pointing a weapon at someone IS assault. Lethal force is a proportional resonse.

Legal repercussions, as previously mentioned, might vary by geographical location. Any place I've lived west of the Mississipi (excluding California), it is highly unlikely that you would be charged for shooting someone in such a scenario.

[kab69440]

A citizen is not authorized to use lethal force until an intruder is actually inside the home, here in Ohio. Just make sure he/they can't crawl back outside. I'm not completely certain of the rules for a CCW holder away from the home. Oh, and booby traps to protect the home while you are away must also be of non-lethal variety.

[253862656971]

Absolutey. Pointing a weapon at someone IS assault. Lethal force is a proportional resonse.

Legal repercussions, as previously mentioned, might vary by geographical location. Any place I've lived west of the Mississipi (excluding California), it is highly unlikely that you would be charged for shooting someone in such a scenario.

I had a similar situation happen this summer.  Readers digest version:  Guy shows up at our house high as a kite on meth and goes through all the vehicles and tries to get in the house.  Dad hears him and not realizing it was a burglar opens the door.  The guy takes off and we give chase, shotguns and handguns in hand.  We never caught up to him.  After we gave up and came back to the house the cops had already showed up and, seeing we were loaded down with enough firepower to hunt bear, asks us what we were doing.  We said we were trying to chase his ass down.  The cop then asks what we would have done if we caught up to him.  Dad said we would have dealt with that when we caught him.

Basically what the cop was getting at is that if the guy is running away we can't legally shoot him.  That isn't to say if it went to trial we wouldn't get off but, it would be a pretty fine line and very dependent on the judge and jury.  Now, if the guy had crossed the threshold into the house it would have been legal to shoot him, even if he was unarmed.  It would also be legal to shoot him outside if and only if he was behaving in a threatening manner, ie. waving a gun at us as in your friend's situation.

Of couse this is very dependent on location.  I live in good ol' South Dakota where guns rights are revered (I did a count the other day and we have 23).  I assume similar states to us like Wyoming, North Dakota, Montana, etc. have similar laws but I don't know how East or West coast states laws are set up.  

[MorePwr]

PopPopPop.....PopPopPop.....PopPopPop

[Charger_Fan]

I'd shoot first, dispose of the bodies & pretend it never happened...nobody but their drug dealer will miss them.




















J/K

[Drache]

Mainly you must be sure by 100% without and doubt that they are trying to kill you. Mainly, they need to fire upon you with intent to kill. If they are in a car in your driveway and you're in a community, not in the country, that would be a big no no. Cops don't like "non cops" shooting at people in crowded residential neighborhoods. If one of your bullets miss and strikes a home or God forbid an innocent, you're now up shit creek without a paddle and will be prosicuted to the full extent of the law.

Now that's not to say that I wouldn't hide in my neighbors yard with a good rifle with a scope and take a potshot at them from up high like a tree. First off the angle would make the bullet strike your front lawn. Or better yet have a friend in a tree on the opposite side and then have both of you put shots into the hood. That would really give them something to think about, how many armed neighbors are there and how close of a residential hood do you have lol. 

[Todd Wilson]

Thats a tough question to answer. Kab is right and so is MM1RT.   My personal thoughts are if they pull into your drive way with guns its open season on them.   But the courts may not think that way.  Were you really in danger?  They were outside and you were inside the house! The way I understand law in Kansas here if your safety or life is threatened then you can shoot.   But iif you wake up at 3am and look out back and find your garage is open and theres people inside of it stealing your shit  you can not go out there with a gun and kill them. But on the other hand you do have a right to protect yourself and your property.  And if you do smoke someone it better be from the front and you better lay down a knife or a hammer next to their hand before you call the cops. Same thing applies in your house. You confront someone in your house and they turn and run you cant shoot them in the back.


The criminals seem to have more rights then the regular citizen out there.  You can be a law abiding tax paying go to work everyday guy and end up with a manslaughter charge againsts you because some thug came in or on your property for one reason or another and you smoked him. With all the slime ball lawyers out there now focusing on lining their pockets with money they will try and fry your ass over it.



Todd

[Vainglory, Esq.]

It varies state to state, but I believe everywhere except Wisconsin subscribes to the "castle doctrine."  Whether or not that is in effect if the intruder is sitting in your driveway and not attempting to break in is a question I can't answer, but I wouldn't go around shooting them until you know for sure.  I haven't taken criminal law yet, so my legal advice should be taken with a grain of salt anyway.  Perhaps you could consult a lawyer.  Or maybe wait for last426 to chime in.

At this point, however, I wouldn't "engage."

[2Gunz]

Personally I would have let some of my less than sane friends deal with them.

[bull]

Oh, and the end of the real story? They continued to be harassed for weeks. They gave police pictures, video tapes, dates, statements everything, police said they were too busy with bigger issues....nothing happened. He eventually moved on base to avoid thugs (gang members I guess)

Here's the problem in this scenario: "police said they were too busy with bigger issues." They may have been too busy but when someone hands them all the evidence that they need to take care of it, and they don't, that's pretty lame. On the flipside, I heard of one case where a guy was refused police service in a similar situation so he called the cops back and told them he was going to deal with the issue himself using force and they high-tailed it right over.

I think if that had happened to me I would have at least called a tow company and told them there was an illegally parked car I needed towed off my property. I imagine if the tow truck driver had felt threatened when he came to tow the car he would have called the police and they might have been more likely to show up. If it's your property I think you should have the right to remove something/someone from it, especially if it's potentially harmful to you and your family.

[John_Kunkel]

It varies state to state,

Yep, and that's why it's unwise to believe legal advice on car forums.

[bull]

It varies state to state,

Yep, and that's why it's unwise to believe legal advice on car forums.

Indeed!

[d72hemi]

I do not know what the state on UT has to say about it, but all of my training (USAF), tells me that I am OK to engage. The USAF has a tier system to explain/authorize deadly force. If the person(s) has the intent, and the capability to cause serious bodily harm, or death, you have the right to use deadly force yourself. That would be the top tier. I can tell you that if I were in that situation, I would have fired through my window, killing them. I do not play with weapons, nor do I tolerate those that do. I weapon has only one purpose, KILL. If you are going have one, that is your intention. No matter what side of the law you are on. If you have a weapon, and are not ready/able to use it, you better only take it to the target range, and never anywhere else. Because you do not want to find out the "other" person(s) are ready to use theirs.

It varies state to state,

Yep, and that's why it's unwise to believe legal advice on car forums.

Indeed!

but asking for opinions and "what ifs"  are OK in my book.

[dkn1997]

it's not a crime if you drag him into your house after you shoot him....

[AKcharger]

Thanks Guys good discussion, I am a weapons collector but not a vigilante. My Rules of Engagement (and what I told the wife) is if someone breaks in make sure sure the family is in one room, lock the door and call the cops...If he/she tries to enter the room then they will be terminated (with extreme prejudice) but the car in the drive-way scenario bothered me because I never thought of it...how brazen!  I have an Alaska CCW license and learned a lot such as:
- Must be a threat of life
-To emphasis over and over to police and bystanders "I was never so scared in my life" when I used deadly force
- Empty the magazine into target, do not wound, like d72 said, if you pull out a weapon it is to kill the target(s) 
- Have a good attorney 

Oh, in case your curious place was unfortunately Anchorage about 8 months ago. Luckily my family lives on the Air Force Base there so people with Machine guns are guarding them (I'm still in Korea) so this is an unlikely scenario but still pissed me off.

- Thanks 1997, but since there was 2 of them in the guys situation two blood trails from the car to the house might be suspicious obvious

- Bull Tow truck is good but I don't think they would stayed long enough, supposedly just pulled in beeped horn, flipped them off for 2-3 min then left

- 2gunz I think yours is the best so far

[Plumcrazy]

There's some interesting reading here.  http://www.packing.org/

[azraelck]

I was informed by a cop, that you have to have legitimate belief that your life or someone else's is in danger. Later, cops in the family confirmed this, in both Miss and Tenn. Your state may vary; and your best bet is to talk to your local law enforcement agency. You have a constitutionally protected right to own and bear arms for your and your family's defense; as well as the defense of your country. In fact, I feel you are obligated to at least have some skill with firearms as duty to your country; in case of need. Regardless of whether you own a gun or not. But you are also obligated to follow your local laws regarding such. And as always, use of deadly force is the extreme last resort. NEVER a first resort. Many encounters can be resolved without use of deadly force; and you must make your decision carefully. When you kill someone, it can't be undone.

Another thing, is that there may be repercussions; even if you are in the right. In Memphis, a man shot an intruder; who was armed and threatening his life. He was not charged. However, the man he shot belonged to a local gang, and they took it upon themselves to exact vengance. Three times they enacted drive bys on that house; and twice they tried to torch it. The man who acted in self defense was forced out of the home and neighborhood he was in because he didn't allow himself to be murdered. They torched his house the night after he moved.

As to me, if there was two guys out front waving guns around, they'd get shot. however, I would not, I repeat, NOT use a rifle. I would use the .38 in my desk. It's done that very job at least three times in defense of the family over the century that we've had it. I intend to purchase a .380ACP for CCW or home defense.  A rifle is simply too powerful; even a .22LR is capable to killing out to 100-125m. I've even heard of kills in hunting at 200m with that little cartridge. A full powered rifle, such as the 7.5mm MAS36 I own, is capable of killing out to 600-800m. Maybe more, but my eyesight couldn't allow me to see a target well enough beyond that range to hit on iron sights. While my front yard is large enough that the nearest house in front is beyond accepted ranges for the .22LR, I would not risk it. 

For home defense, may I recommend a shotgun. Even bird shot at the close quarters a home defense would occur at will easily drop a person; while lacking the range and energy to possibly injure bystanders. Plus, the internationally recognized sign of "Get the F@$! out of my house!" is the sound of a shotgun being pumped. A lot of people like the Carbine-style rifles as well; though I do not. The SKS is good for 200-300m, though it's bayonet is a good deterrent all on it's own. My MAS' bayonet has already terrified some Mexicans accidentally; when I fixed it while showing the rifle to my cousin, a US Army 2nd LT. And I didn't even notice that they were over there.

Contact your local athorities, and ask them. Here we can't tell you, because it varies state to state, and even city to city. All I or anyone else can offer is how our own areas operate, not yours.

[AKcharger]

I agree Azraelck, Local laws are everything...this is just a general discussion. I kinda agree with the  pistol statement but it is sure nice to know you're going into a fight with MORE firepower than the bad guys, not equal or less...somthing about 30rds makes me real comfortable

Cool site Plumcrazy!

[dkn1997]

the internationally recognized sign of "Get the F@$! out of my house!" is the sound of a shotgun being pumped.

That is so true.

[Ghoste]

Several years ago when I was living out of town, I found myself in my hometown one weekend and for whatever reason, decided late in the evening to stay at my parents place.  I drove out to the farm and since it was very late (like 2 or 3 in the morning late), I was carefully sneaking in the house so as to not wake my parents.  As I was creeping down the hallway, I heard a click.  I stopped and very softly said "hello?".  My father flipped on the hall light as he lowered his handgun and put the safety back on.
It was a sobering moment for us both and a close call, so know your target.

[Lord Warlock]

In situations like this, its good to be a florida resident.  They passed a law in the last 4 years that allows us to use deadly force if we "believe" we are in fear of our lives.   Does not have to be at our house either, can be in the car, on the road etc.  I've always held the opinion that I wouldn't shoot anyone unless they came into our house while we were home.  Blatent disrespect of personal property deserves a strict response.  Before the recent law was passed we could only shoot to kill if an intruder was armed and threatening you inside your house, and even then, it wasn't uncommon to get sued by the intruder. 

All i can say is that if i catch anyone in my house, they won't leave, and they get a free souvenier from our silverware drawer.  If they sneak around to the back door, there is plenty of warning as I have a silouette from my last target practice hanging next to the door, showing 8 shot groupings to the heart, neck and head.  If they can survive the first clip of hollowpoints, i doubt they will the 2nd or 3rd. 

[73dodge]

In a situation like that it's best to have pictures of every thug in the car, document the car and the times they showed up at your house. If then anything happens you can go directly to the police with your evidence.

I would also let the cops know that if they refuse to look into the problem the first time anything out of the ordinary happens i would tell them that you are going to talk to the local news station, they love doing stories like this.

[azraelck]

I agree Azraelck, Local laws are everything...this is just a general discussion. I kinda agree with the  pistol statement but it is sure nice to know you're going into a fight with MORE firepower than the bad guys, not equal or less...somthing about 30rds makes me real comfortable

Cool site Plumcrazy!

Believe me; having a 30 round magazine is nice to have; but would you want to be responsible for your buddy next door getting a 7.62mm x 39mm in the head or heart? How about a .223? And Forget .30-06 or 8mm Mauser, or 7.5mm x 54mm French. My MAS has sights out to 1200 meters. Unless your in an apartment; buckshot won't likely get that far. And you can get semi-auto shotguns if you want the capacity and ROF. While i'm not very much into shotguns outside of defensive purposes; I'm sure you can even get a clip-fed one.