Moral choice? Long Story

[Drache]

I've got a really hard choice to make and I don't know what to do.

A couple years back I decided I wanted to work in Security. I paid a crap load of money, took my courses, and got licensed. There were only two security companies in my town and I applied to both. My dad worked at the Casino and told me how one of their exguards had opened up his own security company, one of the two I applied for. My dad mentioned me a couple times and eventually I recieved a job.

After 6 months of working I learned that this guy was embezzling money from his guards by not paying their vacation pay. At the same time I had gotten into an accident in the security car which was proven not to be my fault. The only damage was the hood and passenger side mirror. Under Canadian Law I cannot be charged for the damage because it's under "cost of doing business". Not only did he charge me the FULL price for new parts, paint, and decals, but I found out that he got paid for it by his insurance.

I did some looking into it and I found out that he lied about the date of the accident because at the time, the car I was driving was insured as a private vehicle, not a company vehicle. Thus technically my accident would have made the insurance void so he had to get the insurance as a company vehicle, THEN file out an insurance form.

I started complaining when he took the money off my paycheck for the damages. This too he cannot do unless I give my permission. When I started talking about it with the other guards I was silenced. Then a week later I was told that I was not allowed to drive the car anymore. At the time all we did was mobile security. I asked him that if I couldn't drive how was I going to work. He told me that he guess I couldn't. I told him that I was going to get Employment Standards into it to get my money back and he literally said "be my guest".

To make a long story short Employment Standards immediatlly sided with me and only after they threatened him TWICE with Dual $5000 fines did he pay me my money owed as well as my vacation pay. When I picked up my check 2 weeks later (he was supposed to have it ready within 72 hours) he told me that I had no reason to bring ES into it. After I left he then added a note to my security license saying that he believed I was mentally instable from security work. This almost cost my license and I was damn near banned from working security ever again.

There was also a time that my 70 year old grandpa fingers him and my exboss then threatened my grandfather to never do that again or else.

Anyways onto the moral question. By law in Canada you must be licensed to work public security. A friend of mine is currently working for him without a license. I have a chance to mention this to the government which would create him some serious problems and maybe a review. I now work for the other security company which he is slowly putting out of business. This company is made up of guards who have quick working for that guy.

The problem is my friend and her sister both rely upon that company for their jobs and paychecks. Do I keep this damning info to myself and forget about revenge/vengence?

[Daytona R/T SE]

Nail the Bastard

[Silver R/T]

maybe have friend transfer to your new job?

[Drache]

They dont have their licenses so that would be a big no no Silver.

BTW this happens to be the girl Im supposed to be cuddling with watching the scarey movie.

She freaked out when I mentioned informing the government on this guy. Licenses are for a reason though, you can't get a license with a criminal record check and if you have one, you can't get licensed.

[Recharger]

Nail the Bastard

From what I've read this guy screwed you pretty good, and if it was me, this guy would have a serious limp by now.  Karma's a bitch, even if I have to make her be the bitch.  Screw the guy.  Shut him down.  If you don't, he'll just screw your friend and her sister as bad or worse than he did you.  Besides, it's one thing to protect a wife or a relative, but a girlfriend?  And a cuddler-level gf at that?  Do some math before you make that decision....

[bull]

You have to ask yourself if you feel comfortable playing this guy's game for a good part of your career or not. Would you enjoy being under his thumb for the next (fill in the blank) years, because if you look the other way that's what you will have to do. Do his work ethics benefit anyone but him or do they make the entire crew look bad while he lines his pockets and makes himself look good?

This is harsh but I wouldn't want to share company with anyone who goes along with this guy, even a potential girlfriend. You might be the "bad guy" by doing what's right but if you don't pull the plug I think it would really bother you.

[gtx6970]

What can your consience(sp?) live with with

[Brock Samson]

Your friends should understand when ya' report the asshole...
you have a good reason to make it right.. even if they don't understand.
tough call but i'd say go for it...
Start your own Co.

[Charger_Fan]

I agree with these guys, NAIL HIS NADS TO THE WALL!

And if he somehow wiggles free from that, send Vinnie & Guido by to pay him a visit.

[NHCharger]

Nail the Bastard

From what I've read this guy screwed you pretty good, and if it was me, this guy would have a serious limp by now.  Karma's a bitch, even if I have to make her be the bitch.  Screw the guy.  Shut him down.  If you don't, he'll just screw your friend and her sister as bad or worse than he did you.  Besides, it's one thing to protect a wife or a relative, but a girlfriend?  And a cuddler-level gf at that?  Do some math before you make that decision....

I ran my own construction business for 16 years. Lost many a bid to dirtbag contractors who operate on the same level as this guy does. Somehow it seems these guys always manage to skate around the rules and regulations that apply to everybody else. Nail him.

[red72chrgr]

I agree, nail him !! 

[dd44068]

roast the guy take  no pitty on him make him pay

[Silver R/T]

Id let friend and his sister know whats going on, see what they think

[moparguy01]

moral or right. The right thing to do is report him before others get screwed. they should realize this, if not, then sooner or later it would have happened anyways. But of course he's going to deny it and say they told him they had licenses.

I still say nail him to the wall. otherwise hell keep screwing guys.

[firefighter3931]

I would blow the whistle on this idiot. From what you've said he's trying to shut down the company you're currently working for....that should motivate you along with the fleecing he tried to give you with the bogus car repair deal. I would also notify his insurance company while you're at it. Insurance fraud is serious business. This clown has no business in the "security" industry. 


Ron

[2Gunz]

You already know the answer to your question. You are just looking for somebody to talk you out of turning him in.

Which isnt going to happen with this group of straight hitting, stand up sort of crowd.

[blackcharger]

maybe have friend transfer to your new job?

have you told your friend how you and others have been screwed over? That this guy is breaking the law? Let your friend know how things are, then make the call.

[Drache]

Yeah I've told my friend and her sister a couple times what he's doing but instead of listening, they get mad at me for wanting to do something cause it might affect their jobs.

[PocketThunder]

Yeah I've told my friend and her sister a couple times what he's doing but instead of listening, they get mad at me for wanting to do something cause it might affect their jobs.

Hurry up and watch that scarry movie with her and get done what you'd like to get done and then nail this guy and move on to the next girl if it rubs her the wrong way.....

[hemi68charger]

I'm not going to read any replies so I don't get jaded... From what I read, I say, if you can by law, nail the bastard to the wall with everything you know.. I'm sure he's screwing your friends as well and it's apparent that he's screwed past employees and will continue to do so. I'm sure you're not the only one that knows of his illegal activities and immoral behaviour. It would be honorable and courageous of you to do something and step up to the plate........ Then, start your own business.. Help your friend if you can get their license, etc and hire them.........

Just my opinion.....
Troy

[Old Moparz]

My opinion is to turn him in, but make sure you can back up your claims. You can't just say someone is doing something wrong without being able to prove it. You previous employer is a liar & will lie to dispute your claims. It is "hearsay" or do you have physical proof? What does your current employer think about your previous employer? Maybe you could bring it up & get some input, but keep in mind that this might be a bad idea too. It could make your current employer think differently of you, & it might keep him on edge thinking that you could be a potential problem as a whistle blower in his future if you were to ever leave or get fired.

I had once worked for someone who was a total scumbag on several levels. I couldn't wait to find an excuse to turn her in for something, but she usually cover her ass well. When she eventually sold the company, she had stayed on as a consultant & did some sales for the new owner. I had found a letter she had left on the photocopier with a competitors letterhead & her signature. It had something to do with a new contract she got them because of how she was able to cancel the one that our company had. This was totally wrong, so I anonymously mailed it to the new owner who soon after, canned her sorry ass. 

I found out a year later that the new owner was an even bigger scumbag, but I don't work there anymore. 

[bull]

OM makes a very good point. Be sure you have solid proof and get all your ducks in a row before you try nailing this guy because people like him always find ways of covering their butts. He has to assume that someone will eventually go after him so I'm sure he's taken some precautions. Basically he's a control freak and he's doing this because he's arrogant and enjoys screwing with people to make himself feel like a big shot, so you know the ultimate blow to his ego would be someone overpowering him and he's not going to let that happen without a fight.

[BigBlockSam]

Nail the Bastard   

[last426]

I would not do it.  Some of the best advice I have ever heard was "no one likes a snitch."  In my life that has been confirmed time and time again.  Ask yourself, why would you do it, what do you gain, what does it cost you?  As I read it, all you gain personally is the feeling of revenge, not much more.  At what cost?  Well, the jobs of your friends and the rumors in what has to be a close knit security environment in your community, remember, no one likes a snitch.  There might be a way to effectively use the information, but getting the government involved, at least in my opinion, is not the best way for you personally.  The costs, by far, outweigh any potential benefits.  Kim

[azraelck]

"No one likes a snitch" reminds me of kindergarden "tattle tale!". The right thing to do is not always, and in fact rarely is, the easiest. If your so hung up on what your g/f thinks, then you've got a problem. If she can't do whats right, then you shouldn't be dating her, no matter how hot she might be. Your friends might lose their jobs that they have no buisness in in the first place. They should have a liscense, and if they can't because they're a convict; then they shouldn't be allowed to get those liscense. You do the crime, you pay the price. What you have to gain is self respect. Be a coward, and know that you could have stopped an illegal activity, and walk away for the sake of a few "friends" who'll stab you in the back later anyways. I'd not only call in the government agency over the security sector, but the local media as well; bring it to their attention. They'll jump on bad news about someone like a starving dog on a bone.

As to the "rumor mill", you've already said that most of the guys you work with now quit working for the other guy. Do you honestly think they're going to respect you more for not standing up, or for being a coward and keeping quiet?

It's incredibly stupid to sit back and let things slide. He acted improperly with you, he'll do it to another and another and another. You can help put a stop to it, and be a "tattle tale", or you can be just like him; a coward. Your choice.

[bull]

I would not do it.  Some of the best advice I have ever heard was "no one likes a snitch."  In my life that has been confirmed time and time again.  Ask yourself, why would you do it, what do you gain, what does it cost you?  As I read it, all you gain personally is the feeling of revenge, not much more.  At what cost?  Well, the jobs of your friends and the rumors in what has to be a close knit security environment in your community, remember, no one likes a snitch.  There might be a way to effectively use the information, but getting the government involved, at least in my opinion, is not the best way for you personally.  The costs, by far, outweigh any potential benefits.  Kim

Some people on this planet often look beyond their own personal interest when making decisions about right and wrong. I understand that you are proud of your amoral world view, Kim, but I for one am happy that there are people out there willing to look beyond their own self to help make the world a better place. If it weren't for them a bunch of mini-Hitlers (like the guy described in this thread) would be running the show. This is one reason why we have a court system (where you work), unions, various government agencies, etc., to protect the little guy from tyrants. I would think a defense attorney of all people would be more apt to encourage the average Joe to protect his own rights and livelihood.

[last426]

Now let me get this right.  According to you, he is being moral by turning in his friend in order to get his own self-proclaimed revenge/vengeance?  You prefer gaining revenge to the strength of friendship?  Vengeance to the day-to-day survival of his friend and her sister?  Sorry, my morals don't allow me to sacrifice a friendship for nothing more than revenge; I value friendships too much.  But I kind of expected that unexamined view from some folks.  Oh, below is what he actually asked, just to remind everyone of their moral conviction.  Kim
   

By law in Canada you must be licensed to work public security. A friend of mine is currently working for him without a license. I have a chance to mention this to the government which would create him some serious problems and maybe a review. [snip]  The problem is my friend and her sister both rely upon that company for their jobs and paychecks. Do I keep this damning info to myself and forget about revenge/vengence?

[Drache]

Everyone has made some really good views. Sadly my only evidence would be for the goverment to ask my friend and her sister (not my girlfriends) if they have licenses. Personally this would make them lose their jobs and maybe even fined or banned from working security.

On the other hand I have warned them both many times over the past year that they need to become licensed incase something like this happens. When I started working for him I had two weeks for my license to arrive although I had taken the courses. I was told to work and if anyone asked just lie aobut having my license. Here though, my friends havent even taken the courses!

I'm going to talk to my supervisor when he gets back next week and give him this information although I won't tell him exactlly about my friends. What he's doing is against the law and so I told myself that I'm not doing this for revenge but so someone like him doesn't keep getting away with it.

My friends have had AMPLE time over the past year to take the courses and get licensed and even work for the company I'm working for. Even though it might end my friendship with them, what he's doing can end up hurting the community.

[bull]

Now let me get this right.  According to you, he is being moral by turning in his friend in order to get his own self-proclaimed revenge/vengeance?  You prefer gaining revenge to the strength of friendship?  Vengeance to the day-to-day survival of his friend and her sister?  Sorry, my morals don't allow me to sacrifice a friendship for nothing more than revenge; I value friendships too much.  But I kind of expected that unexamined view from some folks... Kim

I guess it would depend on the type of friendship they have, and I hate to say it but this one seems pretty thin anyway. As Drache said above they have been warned about operating without a license and yet are apparently condoning this guy's lousy business ethics by playing along with his game. They too are only concerned about their own agenda rather than obeying the law. If someone is doing something illegal and you draw attention to that is it your fault for exposing it or their fault for breaking the law? I guess I don't have a set of relative ethics for different situations because I feel we are all accountable for our own actions. If these people get fired for not having a license isn't it really their fault for not getting the license? I don't think that means we should go around pointing out flaws and condemning everyone we know on every little fault we can find but I think this situation goes beyond that. And of course there's obviously a little "if you screw with me I'm going to screw with you" taking place, a bit of prideful power-struggle if you will, so a little introspection on Drache's part might be a good idea. If Drache's only motivation here is to exact revenge then I have to agree somewhat that it's not a very good motivation. Still, no matter what the motivation, the results would be the same if he or anyone else decides to expose this guy at some point.

[70charginglizard]

revenge/vengence?...has nothing to do with that.

It has everything to do with right and wrong. Thats what you should consider.

[Drache]

i guess I should ALSO mention that this guy is a registered TEACHER for security courses as well? 

[41husk]

You know if he has done you this way, why would you think he won't do your friend wrong?  Dig up every thing you can and put this guy OOC.

[last426]

I guess it would depend on the type of friendship they have, and I hate to say it but this one seems pretty thin anyway. As Drache said above they have been warned about operating without a license and yet are apparently condoning this guy's lousy business ethics by playing along with his game. They too are only concerned about their own agenda rather than obeying the law. If someone is doing something illegal and you draw attention to that is it your fault for exposing it or their fault for breaking the law? I guess I don't have a set of relative ethics for different situations because I feel we are all accountable for our own actions. If these people get fired for not having a license isn't it really their fault for not getting the license? I don't think that means we should go around pointing out flaws and condemning everyone we know on every little fault we can find but I think this situation goes beyond that. And of course there's obviously a little "if you screw with me I'm going to screw with you" taking place, a bit of prideful power-struggle if you will, so a little introspection on Drache's part might be a good idea. If Drache's only motivation here is to exact revenge then I have to agree somewhat that it's not a very good motivation. Still, no matter what the motivation, the results would be the same if he or anyone else decides to expose this guy at some point.

Now that is a nice post -- no personal attacks or anything -- gee, I hope you're not depressed or something!  I tend to agree with your post but some of the information you are relying on only recently came to light.  The poster initially did not say that he had repeated warned his friends and said that his motivation was revenge -- I tend to believe that but it is his conscience.  Kim

[bull]

I guess it would depend on the type of friendship they have, and I hate to say it but this one seems pretty thin anyway. As Drache said above they have been warned about operating without a license and yet are apparently condoning this guy's lousy business ethics by playing along with his game. They too are only concerned about their own agenda rather than obeying the law. If someone is doing something illegal and you draw attention to that is it your fault for exposing it or their fault for breaking the law? I guess I don't have a set of relative ethics for different situations because I feel we are all accountable for our own actions. If these people get fired for not having a license isn't it really their fault for not getting the license? I don't think that means we should go around pointing out flaws and condemning everyone we know on every little fault we can find but I think this situation goes beyond that. And of course there's obviously a little "if you screw with me I'm going to screw with you" taking place, a bit of prideful power-struggle if you will, so a little introspection on Drache's part might be a good idea. If Drache's only motivation here is to exact revenge then I have to agree somewhat that it's not a very good motivation. Still, no matter what the motivation, the results would be the same if he or anyone else decides to expose this guy at some point.

Now that is a nice post -- no personal attacks or anything -- gee, I hope you're not depressed or something!  I tend to agree with your post but some of the information you are relying on only recently came to light.  The poster initially did not say that he had repeated warned his friends and said that his motivation was revenge -- I tend to believe that but it is his conscience.  Kim

Maybe I'm turning over a new leaf. I said what I said because Drache's posts did not really have a vengeful tone, even though he used those terms. It seems that he logically thought through the possible ramifications of his actions and was willing to cool off and think about things before diving in head first. Had he been spitting nails and saying 'to hell with this guy and damn the consequences' I'd be more apt to think that revenge was his only motivation. In other words, he mentioned revenge, and I'm sure that's a big part of his mindset, but to me there seemed to be a lot of self-preservation involved, ie., saving his job and reputation while cleaning house and making this particular business more professional rather than simply just getting back at someone and smiling as they go down in flames. People are not always able to express themselves accurately in this format.