Why are our resto parts so expensive compared to others?

[69charger2002]

i saw this earlier:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1967-1968-FORD-MUSTANG-FRONT-VALANCE-PANEL-SAVE_W0QQitemZ130039922878QQihZ003QQcategoryZ6763QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

and it got me thinking. now i KNOW tooling for this piece did not cost THAT much less than say a 68-69 charger valance.. and yes i know they probably sell 50 times as many(just assuming since there are SO many more mustangs than chargers), but WHY do we have to pay $150 for a repop one while mustang lovers get to pay $30?  i mean it's bad enough you have to pay through the nose for hopefully useable old used stuff(which is why i collect so much of it.. takes 5 pieces to pick 1 good one).. but why do our parts cost so much more when they are finally reproduced? doesn't make sense to me. we are so used to taking it up the ass on $ spending for our parts.. that we seem to  justify a new $475 console top plate by saying.. "well if you bought a used one and had it replated, this new one comes out cheaper".. just curious if anyone wants to know why like me or if anyone has a clue why we pay over double for everything mopar. i think it's ridiculous that a new dash bezel set costs $500, and a console top plate $475, a set of 69 grill trim $400+ and so on. i mean we are not restoring hemi cars, and would like to have nice cars without spending $50k in new parts.. It is SO aggravating to see a MINT 69 camaro at a show, that he probably built from a magazine for $20k, and is worth more than that, while we on the other hand spend $40k to create a "nice" driver, that is worth what we have in it, sometimes less if done right.. case in point

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1968-New-Mopar-Charger-Hemi-R-T-Tail-Panel-Moldings_W0QQitemZ120047164514QQihZ002QQcategoryZ34204QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

that item for a mustang or camaro would be $20 bucks tops


ps. i am NOT saying i don't appreciate the vendors that are making us long awaited new parts. but it seems to me they justify their pricing sometimes based on what used in demand pieces go for, NOT what it should be sold for. yeah yeah i know. supply and demand.. just pisses me off. rant over

trav

[kab69440]

Simply put, everyone who loves Mopars is a multi-millionaire. Since we can afford to pay it, that's what we get charged. Charger and E body owners in particular do not have to actually work for a living since we were all born into old money. As long as we are just laying around in the lap of luxury awaiting the next bill from the shop restoring our cars for us, we might as well do our part to keep the economy chugging along.

[daytonalo]

I wish I had good news for you but , for example I spoke to the guy who had those console plates made , It costs 50 k when he was all said and done . and that was done in china , it would have been 4 times that much in USA, you know how it is when those union scumbags get a hold of industry , they have to close down . Now do you see why it costs so much for a part , be thankfull that there is people doing this , trust me their not getting rich !!!!!!!

[chargermick]

Union scumbags??? You're a beauty!

[daytonalo]

When you come back from your union break , ill give you a hug !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! its ok poopy

[Brock Samson]

wouldn't ya wanna work for him?.. 

[Todd Wilson]

I wish I had good news for you but , for example I spoke to the guy who had those console plates made , It costs 50 k when he was all said and done . and that was done in china , it would have been 4 times that much in USA, you know how it is when those union scumbags get a hold of industry , they have to close down . Now do you see why it costs so much for a part , be thankfull that there is people doing this , trust me their not getting rich !!!!!!!

You are way off here.  New parts reproduction has nothing to do with Unions. Your console guy had his stuff made in China to cut costs down to put more profit in his pocket. Not because it was cheaper then the USA. The console price was gonna be the same no matter where it was made.


The reason why Mopar repro parts are so expensive is the cost of manufacturing the piece or part.  There is tooling costs involved and then they must figure out their return on investment. How many Mustangs or Camaro's are out there compared to Mopars.  Would you spend 50k in tooling to make a part and plan to sell to 10000 Charger owners or would you want to invest 50k and sell to 80000 Mustang owners. The price of the part is the same no matter the car.   Then on the other side   You charge 500$ for a mustang part  and the same part for a Charger you charge 4000$  and they dont sell  then you are SOL as an invester.

Its simply business. Return on investment. The markets will only bare a certain price and there is a smaller demand in the Mopar world.  Which is why we dont have as many repro parts as the other 2 have. It is also why our Mopars are very expensive and values continue to rise!!!!!!!



I had a Mustang guy look at my 71 after I got it painted and back together. He asked me why I put my cracked front grill back in it and how come I didnt order a new grill for it.  After I explained to him that it wasnt a Mustang or Camaro and there are no new grills to order he kinda shook his head and walked off.


Todd

[rt green]

mustang guy shook his head and walked off...............sure that wasnt after you cleaned his clock in a race?

[whitehatspecial]

Simple answer is supply and demand. If no one paid the high prices for repro parts, the supply would increase and the prices would start to fall. Bottom line is that most restorers see these cars as money makers and basically they are to the fat daddys that buy them at record prices. As long as the restorer is stuffing their pocket or plans to in the future then who cares what the parts cost? They (the repro people) have you guys that are just trying to restore your own car sucked into the madness and that's a shame.

I don't buy into the low number of Chargers as the reason for the high prices. Heck they repo parts fairly reasonably for 1958-60 Corvettes when there are fewer of those around than late sixties Mopars and many of those cars are fetching equally high dollars.

[Todd Wilson]

Simple answer is supply and demand. If no one paid the high prices for repro parts, the supply would increase and the prices would start to fall. 

Thats the theory of supply and demand   but in the Mopar world there isnt much supply but the demand is getting bigger. Now if manufacturers see a good demand (return on investment) they will spend money to build a repro part. But the demand isnt high enough to invest in like it is for the other muscle cars out there.


Todd

[whitehatspecial]

Simple answer is supply and demand. If no one paid the high prices for repro parts, the supply would increase and the prices would start to fall. 

Now if manufacturers see a good demand (return on investment) they will spend money to build a repro part. But the demand isnt high enough to invest in like it is for the other muscle cars out there.

Seems like the demand is there, but the high prices people are willing to pay aren't justifying mass production (capital investment). It seems like a contrived shortage is being used to justify a limited investment and huge return on investment.

[69charger2002]

that was my point. it was obvious from an investor standpoint that he woul drather spend $50k on a mustang part and make it cheap to sell a bazillion of them in return. but i think we are gouged by the stereotype of "mopars=high prices" sometimes.. even though the demand is there. they would sell a lot more of the product if they made it reasonable..

[Todd Wilson]

The demand is there  in our eyes and the Mopar world but when you look at the big picture it isnt hardly anything compared to Ford and Chevy muscle car parts remanufacturing. Companies are not gonna invest time and money to tool up a part that they do not see a serious market for to make money. Sell 6000 pieces or 90000 pieces.  What few repro parts we have out there are expensive simply to cover costs to make the part and try and make money.


We all see it everytime we go to a car show. How many Mopars are at the show? Whats the ratio of Mopars to Fords or Chevys?




Face it boys   they got us over a barrel!


Todd

[Big Lebowski]

My buddy is about to buy 2 perfect Roadrunner doors for a $1000 That's $500 more than I would spend for them.

[bull]

Simple answer is supply and demand. If no one paid the high prices for repro parts, the supply would increase and the prices would start to fall. 

Thats the theory of supply and demand   but in the Mopar world there isnt much supply but the demand is getting bigger. Now if manufacturers see a good demand (return on investment) they will spend money to build a repro part. But the demand isnt high enough to invest in like it is for the other muscle cars out there.


Todd

That's a lot of it I think. The demand for Mopar stuff is finally catching up to the levels of Ford and GM stuff but the supply side has not caught up yet to anywhere near the volume. Much of the Mopar repro stuff you see today wasn't around five years ago but GM and Ford guys have been enjoying plenty of parts for years. Also, as it has been stated already, there were not nearly as many Mopars made as the other big two so people are reluctant to make reproduction parts if the demand might dry up. In other words, why invest the same amount of money tooling up for parts when you run the risk of less return? A Ford repop guy will spend X amount of money on a valance mould and sell 400,000 units whereas a Mopar repop guy will spend the same X amount and might only sell 100,000 units. I don't know if these numbers are anywhere near reality but I think the point is valid. Still, with Mopars being so popular right now I think many cars that were once considered unrestorable are now being looked at more closely so the gap might be closing. I hope!

[hemi-hampton]

They figure if they are going to sell 3 times less of the part, For example 1000 charger valances to 3,000 mustang valances then they'll have to charge 3 times more to make the same amount. $50 mustang valance VS. $150 charger valance. Just a example. LEON.

[twilt]

I believe that one thing that has not been mentioned so far is the lack of competition in the Mopar repro market. We are lucky to get one company to make an item. When a company does make an item, they are pretty much free to see just how much the market will bear for the part. Example..... Want a set of 71-72 R/T/500/ Rallye tail light lenses or 71-74 park light lenses? You have one choice. PG Classic, either pay their price or forget about it.

Its really a darn shame too, because several of the companies/individuals that i have dealt with would not survive in a competitive environment. Not always due to product and pricing but rather due to their horrendous customer service.  Example... I recently purchased a set of repro 3rd Gen window louvers on Ebay. 2 months, and i still don`t have my Louvers. The guy sells the product, then once he gets paid makes the product at his leisure. You typically get your product 2-3 months later. Of course he doesnt mention that in his Ads. Its a piss poor way of doing business.......but if you want the product...............You basically don`t have a choice.

[41husk]

Not to mention many of the Ford and GM resto parts were tooled years ago at a fraction of what it cost for tooling today.

[daytonalo]

Exactly , mostly because of ultra high  union costs !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[whitehatspecial]

Exactly , mostly because of ultra high  union costs !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I don't know how this became a union-bashing topic, but remember the people in the autoworkers' union are the very people that created the vehicles you all now cherish to a fanatical degree. It kills me that when people start bitching about prices the first thing that comes out of their mouths is this kind of crap. If you want to blame someone for high prices blame yourself. What do you earn a week?

[41husk]

As a union school teacher and wrestling coach I feel I am grossly underpaid!!

[gtx6970]

Case in point . the current newly released exhaust heat shield gasket for the 340 . The vender making this part found most of the original tooling McCord used to make it for Chrysler. What was there was extensively damaged and needed serious work to repair it, cost exceded $30k in REPAIR costs. you can imagine the  costs had he actually made it from scratch. All this is costs out of pocket before the first part is sold to begin recouping cash flow.

Do you really think he is gonna sell more than 1000 pieces. ??
I seriously doubt more than  500 MAYBE. So you have to consider costs on making the part, material costs, AND be able to make a living at it once it's done.

Yes, the costs to tool up to make a die to produce said part are generally similar if not the same, but the projected sales volumne is what sets retail costs.

[SeattleCharger]

 
  mass production

   supply and demand


 

[Corellian Corvette]

Don't confuse "Supply and Demand" with "Available Market Size". *Demand* for a 69 Charger Fender may infact be exactly the same as for a 65 Mustang. But if you're in the manufacturing business, you need to understand your available market size, or the total base of people you COULD sell to.

First, let me say we should all be extremely thankful that ANYBODY makes parts for these cars. If not for the sheer AWESOMENESS of our B-bodies there wouldn't be much business justification. Let me explain.

Let's assume that the fixed cost of manufacturing any given part for a Charger is exactly the same as for a Mustang or Camaro, like the valance panel or console lid. Costs the same to tool, to ship, to market, etc. Well, how many people could I sell that valance panel to?

1965 - 1966 Ford Mustang Production = ~1.17 million
1967 - 1969 Chevy Camaro Production = ~700 Thousand
1968 - 1970 Dodge Charger Production = ~ 215 thousand

I won't even get into the fact that the 1970 car, things like bumpers, fenders, hoods etc. go out the door because those cars are dramatically different. The similarities between 65 - 66 mustangs and the three years of Camaros are much more similar than our cars.

Now, if the costs of making the part are the same, they have to amortize the cost across each part the can sell. Based on production numbers, a manufacturer would have to charge about 1.5X more than a Camaro Valance, and about 5.5X more than a Mustang Valance to make the same amount of money. Tooling and Testing costs can be over $1M. $1m spread across 1.2M cars is about $.83/part. $1m spread across 215K cars is about $4.65 part.

So, quick price check on Front Valance Panels.

Charger Valance = $240
Camaro Valance = $85
Mustang Valance = $40

Well, that lines up pretty closely. Charger valance costs about 5.6x the cost of the Mustang one, and about 2.8x more than the Camaro one. Now, I'm all about doing things for the love of the hobby, but these people have to make money and recoup their investment just like any of us would.

It's even a little worse for us, because of the rarity of our cars there is even a higher value associated with being original or using NOS parts. If I restore a nice little 1965 Mustang Coupe and 50% is using repro parts, the "value" would be about the same as if the car was nearly original. (I'm taking super rare Shelbys and GT's out of the equation).

For my Charger, which has almost all repro sheet metal from the doors back, the value of my car would be MUCH less than the same car that was completely original. So, in general, the MOPAR fan would rather restore original parts than buy a repro so that makes it even worse.

The point being, this has nothing do to with Demand, unions, being made in China, etc. It has everything to do with the fact there just aren't that many of our cars. So even if the exact same percentage of people need them, there just aren't enough of us to get the prices any lower.

Right now, I'm just glad that parts are being made. I was well aware there is a cost to having the coolest muscle car ever made  

[SeattleCharger]

  That makes sense, ,  good explanation of the situation,  the demand thing I am confused about though:

                       1965 - 1966 Ford Mustang Production = ~1.17 million             =higher demand
                       1967 - 1969 Chevy Camaro Production = ~700 Thousand        =much lower demand
                       1968 - 1970 Dodge Charger Production = ~ 215 thousand      =even lower demand         right?

[TK73]

Exactly , mostly because of ultra high  union costs !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yeah, GD unions fighting for a living wage... Why The F*** would somebody want to work for twice the money, and benes, than the guy working non-union jobs??  Union idiots...

TK, WFSE/AFSCME AFL-CIO

[Corellian Corvette]

  That makes sense, ,  good explanation of the situation,  the demand thing I am confused about though:

                       1965 - 1966 Ford Mustang Production = ~1.17 million             =higher demand
                       1967 - 1969 Chevy Camaro Production = ~700 Thousand        =much lower demand
                       1968 - 1970 Dodge Charger Production = ~ 215 thousand      =even lower demand         right?

Yes, for the most part. Demand can be independent of the total market size (in this case the 1.17M, 215K, etc.), but to simplify the discussion I'm making them the same. So yes, you could say that the larger the market, the larger the potential demand.

There's this idea of the "law of large numbers" which basically says that whenever you're talking about a giant population of something, similar patterns will exist in similar ecosystems. So you could say that, for something like a front valance panel, since there is this HUGE ecosystem of cars, the percentage of people that need it for one car will mirror the need in others.

Think about it like this. If I'm in a stadium of 100,000 people and I count that there are 50% women and 50% men, the law of large numbers would say that I could extrapolate the population of the whole world is 50% women and 50% men. The bigger the observed number, the greater your accuracy. Basic statistics.

I say that because most businesses will use the same laws when trying to figure out demand for something - and it's usually pretty accurate.

Let's say that Goodmark knows that the industry sells 60,000 front valance panels for a 65-66 Mustang. Goodmark can then say that 5% of all Mustang owners need a front valance panel. Since the number of Mustangs is pretty large, they could assume that the number of people who need a 68-69 Charger front valance is about the same. Well, 5% of Charger owners is only about 10,000. So they need to figure out if they can make money selling that few. And as I said above, since the costs of making the part are the same, they have to charge a lot more for the same part. (I have no idea how many of these really sell i'm just making these up). That's why things like Door Handles, Trim, etc. is so much more for our cars.

Now, the challege is on unique things like Grilles. I'm sure they sell VERY few grilles for a Mustang beacuse that part is rarely damaged or lost. Also, it's very small and easy to make. Now, I'm sure the demand for 68-69 Charger grilles is MUCH higher than for Mustang grilles because the piece is so often damaged and very suseptible to damage. So in that case, the DEMAND for a Charger Grille is probably higer than demand for a Mustang Grille.

But that's another area where our small number of cars hurts us. Beacuse it's such a big and complex part, and there are so few cars, making something like that would be very expensive, it would have to sell for a lot of money, and therefore the number of units you'd sell would be much lower. At $100 - I bet most of us would buy another grille just for a spare! But at $1000 - I bet very few could buy it even if we really needed it!!

Again, I only say this beacuse I think we should go easy on these guys who are making parts for our cars and support them when we can. If there were a million Chargers I'd feel gouged. But there aren't. Think about that 68 Guage Bezel from P&G classics - that's a 1 year only part. Only good on 68's. That thing probably cost $250K in TOOLING and there are only 96,000 cars made that can even use them. How many of those cars are left? How many need them?! At $250 each those guys need to sell 1000 pieces before they've even made any money!!! And yet, I can get the same part for a 65 mustang for $50.

Anyway, I'm just really thankful they are making some of these parts. 

[TK73]

Agreed, it is very cool that vendors are making these parts... 

[Corellian Corvette]

One more thing since I'm in a mood to write tonight

There is another fallacy where people believe that competition is *always* good for the consumer. "If more people were making parts, the prices would be lower! More people should make parts!!"

That's not always true. The *threat* of competition is good and keeps people honest. But I think in the case of our hobby more competition could be bad in the long run.

Let's use that Gauge Bezel for a second. Very expensive to produce. 1 Year only part. The part is expensive at $250, but actually not bad given the fact only 96K cars can use it vs. 1.17m on that $50 Mustang part.

What if Laysons started making that same bezel? Costs the same to make. Same number of cars it works on. So the market has NOT grown, you have 2 companies competing for the same share. Laysons comes in a little lower at $199 for their part. P&G responds and lowers to $199. Competion works! Great for the consumer! Right?

Wrong.

We saved $50 so yay us! But not one person who needed that part at $250 is going to change their mind and buy it at $200. And a million more 68 Chargers didn't suddenly appear out of thin air. So Laysons and P&G split the sales, at a lower price. P&G wouldn't make as much money as they expected. Maybe they break even or made a little. But if every sale had gone to P&G, they would have made enough money to have some profit and re-invest in another part. So now you don't get that automatic console lid you wanted, or that Grille, because the profits from the Gauge bezel weren't enough to make a new part.

That's one way competition can actually hurt us. We may save $50 now but not get that other part we really want.

[twilt]

Sorry, but I`m not buying that competition is a bad thing. Its not always about the price, but sometimes about quality and service. I can tell you first hand, that there are quite a few reproductions on the market, that would not survive in a competitive market.
Example- Accuform plastics makes all the 3rd Gen repro seatbacks, lower door panels, kick panels, and A-pillar trim. I have bought the seat backs and lower door panels and in my opinion they are rubbish.   I`d rather spend more $$ for good used, than use the crap they make.   However, they have no competition..... So, it causes a catch 22 situation. You buy the trash they make and as a result they continue to make the trash, OR you don`t buy the trash and the lack of sales "proves"  that there is not a viable market. Whats real sad is that it probably wouldn`t have cost anymore to reproduce them accurately.
Using Laysons as example is a joke. They are one company that could use some competiton. They would either go belly up and die, or improve their business model. I tend to believe that they would not survive in a more competitive environment. I`ve always been amused by their "pay us now and maybe we will make it in 5-10 years philosophy" (Its been almost 3 years since they updated their website, LOL)
If i recall correctly, havent the 2nd Gen Charger rear valance corner peices been made very poorly for quite some time? wouldn`t some good old fashion competition be a good thing?   

[BronzeOnSteelies]

I go to a large car show and there are 3 Chargers there. Miine, my friend's , and maybe another one.

[Corellian Corvette]

Don't get me wrong. I never said competition was a bad thing - I said it wasn't ALWAYS a good thing.

In the case where service or the prodcut is bad, then yes absolutely someone should come in and do a better job and be rewarded. A company that makes crap prodcut should not be rewarded.

My case was merely an example where, arguably, the prodcut and service is good, and 2 companies are splitting the sales for one limited product. It was an example to make a point.

I'm not clear on your frustration with Laysons. I was talking with Dave a few weeks ago about his business, and there are pieces that he's made because people were "demanding" them, yet he's still sitting on quite a few. Because this happens he makes limited runs of, say, 1000 pieces. If they sell out he has start another run which can take months.

I don't think people really grasp how difficult this can be sometimes.

But your point is correct - if a part is poorly made or incorrect, then yes competition is good.

[twilt]

I'm not clear on your frustration with Laysons. I was talking with Dave a few weeks ago about his business, and there are pieces that he's made because people were "demanding" them, yet he's still sitting on quite a few. Because this happens he makes limited runs of, say, 1000 pieces. If they sell out he has start another run which can take months.

Here is a link to a recent thread on Moparts in regard to Laysons. 
http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=2992769&page=0&fpart=1&vc=1