Why are our resto parts so expensive compared to others?

[TK73]

Exactly , mostly because of ultra high  union costs !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yeah, GD unions fighting for a living wage... Why The F*** would somebody want to work for twice the money, and benes, than the guy working non-union jobs??  Union idiots...

TK, WFSE/AFSCME AFL-CIO

[Corellian Corvette]

  That makes sense, ,  good explanation of the situation,  the demand thing I am confused about though:

                       1965 - 1966 Ford Mustang Production = ~1.17 million             =higher demand
                       1967 - 1969 Chevy Camaro Production = ~700 Thousand        =much lower demand
                       1968 - 1970 Dodge Charger Production = ~ 215 thousand      =even lower demand         right?

Yes, for the most part. Demand can be independent of the total market size (in this case the 1.17M, 215K, etc.), but to simplify the discussion I'm making them the same. So yes, you could say that the larger the market, the larger the potential demand.

There's this idea of the "law of large numbers" which basically says that whenever you're talking about a giant population of something, similar patterns will exist in similar ecosystems. So you could say that, for something like a front valance panel, since there is this HUGE ecosystem of cars, the percentage of people that need it for one car will mirror the need in others.

Think about it like this. If I'm in a stadium of 100,000 people and I count that there are 50% women and 50% men, the law of large numbers would say that I could extrapolate the population of the whole world is 50% women and 50% men. The bigger the observed number, the greater your accuracy. Basic statistics.

I say that because most businesses will use the same laws when trying to figure out demand for something - and it's usually pretty accurate.

Let's say that Goodmark knows that the industry sells 60,000 front valance panels for a 65-66 Mustang. Goodmark can then say that 5% of all Mustang owners need a front valance panel. Since the number of Mustangs is pretty large, they could assume that the number of people who need a 68-69 Charger front valance is about the same. Well, 5% of Charger owners is only about 10,000. So they need to figure out if they can make money selling that few. And as I said above, since the costs of making the part are the same, they have to charge a lot more for the same part. (I have no idea how many of these really sell i'm just making these up). That's why things like Door Handles, Trim, etc. is so much more for our cars.

Now, the challege is on unique things like Grilles. I'm sure they sell VERY few grilles for a Mustang beacuse that part is rarely damaged or lost. Also, it's very small and easy to make. Now, I'm sure the demand for 68-69 Charger grilles is MUCH higher than for Mustang grilles because the piece is so often damaged and very suseptible to damage. So in that case, the DEMAND for a Charger Grille is probably higer than demand for a Mustang Grille.

But that's another area where our small number of cars hurts us. Beacuse it's such a big and complex part, and there are so few cars, making something like that would be very expensive, it would have to sell for a lot of money, and therefore the number of units you'd sell would be much lower. At $100 - I bet most of us would buy another grille just for a spare! But at $1000 - I bet very few could buy it even if we really needed it!!

Again, I only say this beacuse I think we should go easy on these guys who are making parts for our cars and support them when we can. If there were a million Chargers I'd feel gouged. But there aren't. Think about that 68 Guage Bezel from P&G classics - that's a 1 year only part. Only good on 68's. That thing probably cost $250K in TOOLING and there are only 96,000 cars made that can even use them. How many of those cars are left? How many need them?! At $250 each those guys need to sell 1000 pieces before they've even made any money!!! And yet, I can get the same part for a 65 mustang for $50.

Anyway, I'm just really thankful they are making some of these parts. 

[TK73]

Agreed, it is very cool that vendors are making these parts... 

[Corellian Corvette]

One more thing since I'm in a mood to write tonight

There is another fallacy where people believe that competition is *always* good for the consumer. "If more people were making parts, the prices would be lower! More people should make parts!!"

That's not always true. The *threat* of competition is good and keeps people honest. But I think in the case of our hobby more competition could be bad in the long run.

Let's use that Gauge Bezel for a second. Very expensive to produce. 1 Year only part. The part is expensive at $250, but actually not bad given the fact only 96K cars can use it vs. 1.17m on that $50 Mustang part.

What if Laysons started making that same bezel? Costs the same to make. Same number of cars it works on. So the market has NOT grown, you have 2 companies competing for the same share. Laysons comes in a little lower at $199 for their part. P&G responds and lowers to $199. Competion works! Great for the consumer! Right?

Wrong.

We saved $50 so yay us! But not one person who needed that part at $250 is going to change their mind and buy it at $200. And a million more 68 Chargers didn't suddenly appear out of thin air. So Laysons and P&G split the sales, at a lower price. P&G wouldn't make as much money as they expected. Maybe they break even or made a little. But if every sale had gone to P&G, they would have made enough money to have some profit and re-invest in another part. So now you don't get that automatic console lid you wanted, or that Grille, because the profits from the Gauge bezel weren't enough to make a new part.

That's one way competition can actually hurt us. We may save $50 now but not get that other part we really want.

[twilt]

Sorry, but I`m not buying that competition is a bad thing. Its not always about the price, but sometimes about quality and service. I can tell you first hand, that there are quite a few reproductions on the market, that would not survive in a competitive market.
Example- Accuform plastics makes all the 3rd Gen repro seatbacks, lower door panels, kick panels, and A-pillar trim. I have bought the seat backs and lower door panels and in my opinion they are rubbish.   I`d rather spend more $$ for good used, than use the crap they make.   However, they have no competition..... So, it causes a catch 22 situation. You buy the trash they make and as a result they continue to make the trash, OR you don`t buy the trash and the lack of sales "proves"  that there is not a viable market. Whats real sad is that it probably wouldn`t have cost anymore to reproduce them accurately.
Using Laysons as example is a joke. They are one company that could use some competiton. They would either go belly up and die, or improve their business model. I tend to believe that they would not survive in a more competitive environment. I`ve always been amused by their "pay us now and maybe we will make it in 5-10 years philosophy" (Its been almost 3 years since they updated their website, LOL)
If i recall correctly, havent the 2nd Gen Charger rear valance corner peices been made very poorly for quite some time? wouldn`t some good old fashion competition be a good thing?   

[BronzeOnSteelies]

I go to a large car show and there are 3 Chargers there. Miine, my friend's , and maybe another one.

[Corellian Corvette]

Don't get me wrong. I never said competition was a bad thing - I said it wasn't ALWAYS a good thing.

In the case where service or the prodcut is bad, then yes absolutely someone should come in and do a better job and be rewarded. A company that makes crap prodcut should not be rewarded.

My case was merely an example where, arguably, the prodcut and service is good, and 2 companies are splitting the sales for one limited product. It was an example to make a point.

I'm not clear on your frustration with Laysons. I was talking with Dave a few weeks ago about his business, and there are pieces that he's made because people were "demanding" them, yet he's still sitting on quite a few. Because this happens he makes limited runs of, say, 1000 pieces. If they sell out he has start another run which can take months.

I don't think people really grasp how difficult this can be sometimes.

But your point is correct - if a part is poorly made or incorrect, then yes competition is good.

[twilt]

I'm not clear on your frustration with Laysons. I was talking with Dave a few weeks ago about his business, and there are pieces that he's made because people were "demanding" them, yet he's still sitting on quite a few. Because this happens he makes limited runs of, say, 1000 pieces. If they sell out he has start another run which can take months.

Here is a link to a recent thread on Moparts in regard to Laysons. 
http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=2992769&page=0&fpart=1&vc=1