Front suspension what to do?

[cold85]

My front end needs a rebuild. Are certain upgrades worth the money? I know what i can rebuild the stock stuff for i think. I have power steering and would like to get some of the bump steer out of the car. I also like the ride quality of the stock frontend. Are some of the new product worth the money. Like the new rack and pinon kit or the complete bolt on kits that Bill Reily make. Or would I be happy with no power steering and a new steering box. I do not know so i would like some other opinons thanks

[bull]

I can't say much about the steering but if you're considering polyurathane bushings I think most people would agree they are much nicer than the stock rubber.

[daytonalo]

I hear they squeak like hell !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Brian in GA]

I remember a lengthy thread on this forum about the poly vs. rubber debate--seems to me the poly gives you better handling, esp. for strip applications, but the rubber gives you a lot better ride.

This link may work:

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,15396.0.html

If not, search on "complete suspension & steering rebuild"

I saved that one for when I get ready to do the same thing.
Good luck!

[Chryco Psycho]

I guess it depends on your budget & what you really want out o f the car , if you aregoing to Rack & pinion & would recommend Alter K Tion from Bill Reilly
you can get a lot out of the stock suspension as well , by welding plates on the lower control arms , upgrading to C body tierods &  using poly suspension parts

[daytonalo]

I have restored many cars and I always use stock rubber , these cars are worth way to much and irreplaceable to thrash them around in a turn or roadcourse. when I go out for a drive it is all I can do to keep people away from my car or running into it .

[resq302]

I just redid mine recently and chose to go with rubber.  I used to have a Jeep CJ7 that I put polys on and used the required grease and they still squeeked like hell!  I have also heard that on these older cars, the poly unit dont allow for enough flex and I have heard people breaking welds and other pieces on their front suspension such as K frame sections where the lower control arm shaft goes through.

[Ghoste]

I have poly in mine and after three years no squeaking and no broken welds.

[daytonalo]

If you want to burn rubber buy a muscle car ! If you want to take corners at high G loads buy a Porsche!

[Ghoste]

Why not try to have it all?

[daytonalo]

It is what it is , old antiquated technology , accept it for what it is . Show it , cruise it , polish it , don't waste time and money trying to compete with a viper . Go buy one !!!!!

[Ghoste]

I don't think improving the suspension automatically means you want to compete with a Viper.  The drivetrain as delivered in 1969 is also antiquated technology and we have no qualms about improving on that.

[daytonalo]

my point is you have to completely engineer the front and rear susp , independent rear , coil over front and rear or air bags to compete today . Those mods are great for a hot rod or purpose built car , in most case an orig suspended car will bring a higher price .

[Ghoste]

No, I understand where you're coming from Larry.  My point was just that there isn't anything wrong with making the stock stuff better.  Work with what you have.
I know I can't corner with a Porsche but if the guy up the street with the 67 Chevelle has to brake to try and follow me in a corner, that's worth a few grins.

[daytonalo]

Stop it now , Your speaking to like you almost like me !!!!!!! I think any upgrade  that can not be seen is awesome !!!!!!!
                                                                                                             Larry

[Blakcharger440]

From what I have gathered on a few posts of his,NYCMille has a Charger that can keep up with some
of the newer cars like camaros and mustangs...which is a great achievement in a B Body if you ask me.
I am going to try and make mine handle just as well.

If you can adapt some of the newer technology  like updated tire & rims,sway bars,subframe connectors,better brakes then why not do it as these things also add saftey. 

[BlueSS454]

I have 1 car out of 4 with poly bushings in it, my 70 SS454 Chevelle.  If I could do it over again, I would put rubber ones in it.  It does handle better cornering, but how often do I need it to do some serious cornering?  Almost never. They costantly squeak too which is annoying.   My 69 Chevelle on the other hand rides much nice with the rubber bushings in it.  Another reason I chose to go with rubber in the Charger.  They lasted for 35 years once, they'll last for another 35 years.

[daytonalo]

Finally , someone who has been there , done that !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If you guys still go with poly , we told you so!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Ghoste]

I'm there doing it and I'm keeping my poly but thanks very much for your opinion too.

[Blakcharger440]

I had poly bushings in a 69 Mach 1 390 car back in 93 and liked them alot. I didnt here any squeaks!

[is_it_EVER_done?]

I agree that there is no reason not to upgrade the suspension to todays standards, but the stock suspension was so good that it's very hard to improve upon past heavier torsion bars, good shocks, and new bushings.

You really have to start with the car body in order to get substantial improvements. Sub-frame connectors welded to the floor and frame is a huge improvement, but welding all the seams in the front frame rails so that they are boxed in, seam welding the K-frame, adding welds to the suspension mounting points on the front, welding several brackets to the rear shock mount crossmember so that it is tied to the body and frame, and adding several welds to the torsion bar crossmember so that it is tightly tied to the body, will give you truly amazing improvements. However tires are going to be the main improvement you can do.

I have gone on record several times before stating that Poly bushings will decrease suspension performance, As Moog rubber is far superior, but it appears as though the poly squeak is more of a detriment to most than the decreased suspension performance so I will second the fact that it squeaks - no matter how much you grease it, but even if you could get it to stop squeaking, you are still going to be stuck with a harsh riding, sub-par handling car with poly. Try them both and come back and tell us which is better!

I offer up the Lamborghini Countach as an example. It was fast, good looking, and could handle well on an absolutely flawless track, but on a real road it was the most miserable car that ever existed, and could probably get beat by a slant six dart on a normall road due to it's stiff, unworkable suspension. it has never been considered a performance car by the "handling" crowd due it's stiff, harsh suspension. However, some like that and mistake it for performance.

[Ghoste]

How does the poly decrease suspension performance?

[daytonalo]

I like this guy , well said !

[Blakcharger440]

Yes please enlighten on how the poly bushings decrease performance and rubber with more deflections would increase?

[is_it_EVER_done?]

This has been well covered before many times, but you can read my thoughts and experience with poly in this thread  ]http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,9917.0.html

[Ghoste]

Well, you make some excellent points but there were some excellent points made for the opposing opinion in that thread as well.  As for me, as already stated, I have the poly, I like it, and I'm keeping it. 

[Mike DC]

To each his own.

There are probably too many different factors at work in this issue to boil it down to one single answer we all agree on.  Major differences in the amounts (and conditions) that our cars get driven, MAJOR differences in what car owners perceive as "better" or "worse" road feel, etc.

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Another point I'd like to bring up:
In stock suspensions, the factory bushings aren't always being used for purely "bushing" jobs. 

Example:  Look at the rear leaf spring eyes & shackles.  Putting a poly bushing set into the leaves will undoubtedly tighten-up the lateral location of the rear axle, which is a significant source of slop in most live-axle cars on a road course. 

Good, right? Well, yes and no.  In this case, I would argue that the poly bushings are being used to do a job that would be better suited for a panhard bar or watts link. 

So you would indeed get a benefit from installing poly bushings into the rear leaves, but the benefit is not really from the PRINCIPLE of tighter bushings (if all else were equal).  The benefit of the poly bushings is because those O.E. leaf spring rubber bushings were arguably overtaxed from the factory (at least for modern road-course duty with aftermarket springs/shocks/radial tires).  My point is that although poly leaf spring bushings might indeed provide a benefit in this case, that benefit would probably disappear if the car got a panhard bar or watts link added later (to really do the axle-locating job right).

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Conplicated, isn't it?  But I guess all drag-racing mods and no handling mods make Jack a dull boy.

 

[Blakcharger440]

Sounds like poly would be better than rubber in that case also for better overall performance in
handling.

What are all the newer performance cars using like the Viper,Vette,etc....

[resq302]

Sounds like poly would be better than rubber in that case also for better overall performance in
handling.

What are all the newer performance cars using like the Viper,Vette,etc....

I do not see how you can compare these two.  It is like comparing apples to oranges.  Vipers and newer Corvettes have technology on their side versus when our cars were built.  You are also looking at 30+ years of better equipment such as tubular control arms, rack and pinions, and different types of material used.  The metal on todays cars is far thinner than what was originally used back in say, 1969.  Back in 1969, if you sat on the fender of your car, you might pop it in but it would pop back out once you got off.  When I had my new 2005 Dodge ram, I leaned on the fender with my hand to wash the hood and creased my fender!!!!  With lighter parts, you will get better performance no doubt.  Now if you were comparing a chevelle to a charger, yeah, you might get better results coparing the two because of similar technology and materials used.  But to me, comparing a new car of today to what our Chargers are is like comparing a horse and buggy to your charger.

[Blakcharger440]

We are comparing material used. Rubber vs. Poly. You also have people upgrading their Chargers to have tubular front K-memberrs, 6speed transmissions,aluminum heads,etc....are you trying to tell me that the stock parts are better than those from strictly a performance and driveability standpoint also?

I think it comes down to those who want their cars to handle like factory and those who want their cars to perform
to a much higher degree with cornering and braking being improved.

We will agree to disagree as everyone has their idea of what performance and handling is.

Plus, I was not comparing the two just merely asking what the newer cars use.

The aftermarket sometimes looks to newer technology being used on newer cars in order to make the older
cars perform better is all that i was saying.

[resq302]

I guess then it really just comes down to what you want to do with your car and what your personal preferences are.  Like you said, performance is in the eye of the beholder.  To me, performance is about horse power and speed, not cornering ability.  (If I was worried about cornering ability, I would certainly not be running the repro bias ply tires on my car at this point).  My preference is originality.  Granted, there are some things on my car that are modern improvements on the car such as electronic ignition for reliability reasons.  But again, it all comes down to personal preference in the end.  When I had poly bushings and mounts in my 85 Jeep CJ7, they squeeked like hell and gave the vehicle a harsh bumpy ride (more than a Jeep is normally noted to have).  Since then, I have just gone with OE rubber ones as it gives a smoother ride and won't transfer an impact of hitting a pothole or a bump in the road to the driver.  The rubber allows it to do its job and absorb the energy instead of transfering it to someplace else.  Just my .02.