Alt. Fuel

[Duey]

Duey, for my own research, has anyone provided a cost analysis of what it actually takes (in time and fuel) to go pick up the used vegetable oil? Is this included or is it considered "free"? I suppose that I can't really try it until I buy a diesel vehicle.

Troy

Troy, to be honest, we really haven't looked at the additional fuel to go pick up the oilm but it's not much compared to the chemicals.  The most expensive ingredient is the methanol and then the potassium hydroxide.  I'll have to dig into the numbers from my buddy but in Canada, we're looking at about 25-30 ¢/Litre based on getting the used oil for free.

Guys in my local area (SE Ontario/N NY) usually run B50 in the winter, but there are some hardliners that fill their tank with about 5% PowerService and run straight BD, even down to -20c/0f...(brrr)

Cheers,
Duey

[The Mad Scientist]

What about blends like E85?

[Duey]

Mad, E85 can be run by gassers but I don't think they are any cheaper than straight gas (if not a bit more expensive...where I livem anyway).  The attraction to biodiesel if for folks who a) don't mind tinkering a bit, b) are a little bit "out there" (as evidenced by owning a diesel car in the first place), c) hate paying socialist governments huge amounts of taxes that aren't turned back into the roads  , etc.....  Still likely to remain a small niche of people helping the local restauranteurs reduce costs for used cooking oil... 

Cheers,
Duey

[SirNik73]

OK... so let me get this... if i just strain the Veggie Oil (VO) and then put it in a tank in the car with a heater (a coil in the tank that has engine coolent running through it) then have a tank changer that will switch from the VO tank to the current factory fule tank, so i can bring the eingie up to operating temp and then go to the VO and then when i get to where i'm parking switch the car back the the Diesel in the factory fule tank and let it purge the fule lines.

i don't have to distill the VO in a drum or anythign like that. just strain it?

also some one said that the knew someone who did this convercion to their Benz diesel? can you PM me that guys e-mail? if its that simple it sounds like its time to convert Sades over to a Oil Burner.

[Duey]

OK... so let me get this... if i just strain the Veggie Oil (VO) and then put it in a tank in the car with a heater (a coil in the tank that has engine coolent running through it) then have a tank changer that will switch from the VO tank to the current factory fule tank, so i can bring the eingie up to operating temp and then go to the VO and then when i get to where i'm parking switch the car back the the Diesel in the factory fule tank and let it purge the fule lines.

i don't have to distill the VO in a drum or anythign like that. just strain it?

also some one said that the knew someone who did this convercion to their Benz diesel? can you PM me that guys e-mail? if its that simple it sounds like its time to convert Sades over to a Oil Burner.

...or you as some chemicals to make the veggie oil almost like dino diesel and don't do anything to your car to use the stuff...BTW, a by-product of the transestherization is glycerine which lots of huggy, felly natural soap makers will gladly accept, if not actually pay you for...

Duey

[Charger_Fan]

This whole VO thing is very interesting...I'm half tempted to go find a beater diesel pickup! Hell, I could carry tanks large enough to fill most of the bed & drive all month long on that stuff!
I could easily see this whole VO thing getting out of hand soon if the fuel prices keep going up the way they are...there will be people assaulting others behind resturants for their fry oil.

TCP All I have to say...

This TCP thing is pretty friggin' interesting too. I wonder if they have stock available yet?

I like this quote from their FAQ page...

After a decade of intensive development, the first commercial-scale waste-to-oil plant based on the Thermal Conversion Process (TCP) of Changing World Technologies is successfully processing up to 270 tons of poultry offal into 300 barrels of oil daily in Carthage, Missouri. “Unfortunately, while the science works, political technicalities are preventing our company from meeting the demand to expand our U.S. operations,” says CWT Chairman & CEO Brian Appel.

Yeah, I bet there are some "political technicalities".

[MichaelRW]

There is an outfit called Eco-Tours in Hawaii that runs a fleet of boats that uses diesel or VO for fuel. While on one of the tours the Captain explained they choose to use the VO for ecological reasons and of course, it is also to live up to their name. He said the VO costs about twice that of diesel.

On another note, why not a car that runs on natural gas? You could fill up the tank right at your own home.

[Duey]

There is an outfit called Eco-Tours in Hawaii that runs a fleet of boats that uses diesel or VO for fuel. While on one of the tours the Captain explained they choose to use the VO for ecological reasons and of course, it is also to live up to their name. He said the VO costs about twice that of diesel.

On another note, why not a car that runs on natural gas? You could fill up the tank right at your own home.

Mike, there are a number of makers that provide LNG mods to vehicles right from the factory in Canada, DCX included.  As well, propane works up until -23c/-10f then it turns into a non-pressurized liquid...i.e. propane carb doesn't feed anything to the motor... 

Cheers,
Duey

[generalfan01]

MOONSHINE like the duke boys used its efficant and good for the enviornment

[Mopar440+6]

This TCP thing is pretty friggin' interesting too. I wonder if they have stock available yet?

No stock yet CF. Still a privately traded company as of right now.

Yeah, I bet there are some "political technicalities".

"Political technicalities" or Oil Companies whatever you want to call them...

[purple70rt]

From what I have read and seen on the news, the use of Veggie Oil goes something like this..

1) Diesel vehicle must be fitted with a second fuel tank. This tank can be as big or small as you can fit.   

Example:         The guy on the local news had a Benz with a small tank in his trunk, (mounted), and two 6 gallon plastic cans to pick up used oil. Another guy I saw on TV was part of a group that proved it's use by driving across the country on veggie oil.. He had a late model Dodge 4 door duelly with about 7 or 8 55 gallon plastic drums full of veggie oil.. He made it and had plenty to spare..

2) The tank must be fitted with a heat exchanger to heat the VO over 115*. The hot water to the heat exchanger is a byproduct of the running engine.. Simple!!

3) From the VO tank and the diesel tank must be diverter valves. The valves are used to switch from diesel to VO and back. + it is a good idea to set up your fuel gauge to switch at the same time for obvious reasons.

4) You will also need a place to set up a few barrels for straining and storage... Keep in mind, this is vegetable oil, not rocket fuel.. Most of us store much more potent stuff now!!


It works like this:   

1) You make a deal with your local Mc Dammits or Drunkin doughnuts for their used frier oil..

2) You carry the VO home in the best way you see fit.

3) Once you get it home you start straining it into another drum or barrel. (The better you strain it the less trouble you will have down the road).

4) Let it settle as long as you can and pump the most clear VO into your VO tank in your vehicle.


Using VO as a fuel:

1) Start your engine on diesel.

2) Drive as normal until your engine temp gets to about 150-160*. By this time you should be able to switch over to VO. This will take some getting used to. It could take a bit longer or shorter...

3) Before shutting down your engine, switch back to diesel to flush your system out.

There are many people doing this basically the same way. 2 people here in Florida, (that I know of), are not using any heat at all and never use any diesel fuel.. Of course the warmer weather here plays a big roll in that.. Where you live plays a big part in it respectfully..

So,,,,, who's got a diesel truck for sale cheap??

Sounds like a pain in the ass.

[Shakey]

I heard about this car this morning on the radio.  A car that runs on air.

http://www.theaircar.com/

[MichaelRW]

There is an outfit called Eco-Tours in Hawaii that runs a fleet of boats that uses diesel or VO for fuel. While on one of the tours the Captain explained they choose to use the VO for ecological reasons and of course, it is also to live up to their name. He said the VO costs about twice that of diesel.

On another note, why not a car that runs on natural gas? You could fill up the tank right at your own home.

Mike, there are a number of makers that provide LNG mods to vehicles right from the factory in Canada, DCX included.  As well, propane works up until -23c/-10f then it turns into a non-pressurized liquid...i.e. propane carb doesn't feed anything to the motor... 

Cheers,
Duey

Thanks, never heard of that before.

[Duey]

There is an outfit called Eco-Tours in Hawaii that runs a fleet of boats that uses diesel or VO for fuel. While on one of the tours the Captain explained they choose to use the VO for ecological reasons and of course, it is also to live up to their name. He said the VO costs about twice that of diesel.

On another note, why not a car that runs on natural gas? You could fill up the tank right at your own home.

Mike, there are a number of makers that provide LNG mods to vehicles right from the factory in Canada, DCX included.   As well, propane works up until -23c/-10f then it turns into a non-pressurized liquid...i.e. propane carb doesn't feed anything to the motor...  

Cheers,
Duey

Thanks, never heard of that before.

Mike, just did a bit of research and noted that Daimler Chrysler no longer produces CNG/dual-fuelled vehicles anymore...just E85-powered Minivans (with the 3.3L V6).  Up until the early 2000's, you used to be able to order dual fuel CNG/gasoline versions of utility vehicle (Ram p/u and vans) with the 5.2 and 5.9L engines.  Maybe with rising oil, they may come back.  There used to be a lot of fleet operators with the dual-fuel trucks.

Duey

[SirNik73]

that air car... what is it, a Huge impact gun? i don't unterstand how you could store ehough compressed air to run a car in the little toy looking vehicle.

[Steve P.]

From what I have read and seen on the news, the use of Veggie Oil goes something like this..

1) Diesel vehicle must be fitted with a second fuel tank. This tank can be as big or small as you can fit.   

Example:         The guy on the local news had a Benz with a small tank in his trunk, (mounted), and two 6 gallon plastic cans to pick up used oil. Another guy I saw on TV was part of a group that proved it's use by driving across the country on veggie oil.. He had a late model Dodge 4 door duelly with about 7 or 8 55 gallon plastic drums full of veggie oil.. He made it and had plenty to spare..

2) The tank must be fitted with a heat exchanger to heat the VO over 115*. The hot water to the heat exchanger is a byproduct of the running engine.. Simple!!

3) From the VO tank and the diesel tank must be diverter valves. The valves are used to switch from diesel to VO and back. + it is a good idea to set up your fuel gauge to switch at the same time for obvious reasons.

4) You will also need a place to set up a few barrels for straining and storage... Keep in mind, this is vegetable oil, not rocket fuel.. Most of us store much more potent stuff now!!


It works like this:   

1) You make a deal with your local Mc Dammits or Drunkin doughnuts for their used fryer oil..

2) You carry the VO home in the best way you see fit.

3) Once you get it home you start straining it into another drum or barrel. (The better you strain it the less trouble you will have down the road).

4) Let it settle as long as you can and pump the most clear VO into your VO tank in your vehicle.


Using VO as a fuel:

1) Start your engine on diesel.

2) Drive as normal until your engine temp gets to about 150-160*. By this time you should be able to switch over to VO. This will take some getting used to. It could take a bit longer or shorter...

3) Before shutting down your engine, switch back to diesel to flush your system out.

There are many people doing this basically the same way. 2 people here in Florida, (that I know of), are not using any heat at all and never use any diesel fuel.. Of course the warmer weather here plays a big roll in that.. Where you live plays a big part in it respectfully..

So,,,,, who's got a diesel truck for sale cheap??

Sounds like a pain in the ass.

I guess it does to some, but most of us do much more difficult work on a regular bassis.. Besides, if you take a look at what you COULD save in fuel costs I don't think it's such a pain in the ass.

Ex:   If you drive 15,000 miles per year and get 10 miles to the gallon, you will have used 1500 gallons of fuel.. At a cost of $2.50 per gallon you will have spent $3,750.oo on fuel.. If you where to do this and over 5 years you would have spent $18,750.oo... That's allllot of Charger money!!

So it takes some time and money to set it up. Big deal.. It would mean a weekend day away from this board to set it up. Also a little time each week to pick up and strain your next batch.. How long does it take you to make $3,750.oo?? On top of that, straight Veggie oil will not mess up the environment.. Only the political oil whores!!   (Place big smiley here).....

[The Mad Scientist]

"The engine has 4 two-stage pistons, i.e. 8 compression and/or expansion chambers. They have two functions: to compress ambient air and refill the storage tanks; and to make successive expansions (reheating air with ambient thermal energy) thereby approaching isothermic expansion."

That was from theaircar.com

So...   It sounds like what they're trying to do is use compressed air to help with fuel atomization/and combustion/fuel pre-heating???

Those articulated connecting rods really blew me away.   They can keep the pistons at TDC for 70% of the combustion cycle.   And did I read that right?  electromagnetic valvetrain???

Dang!!!

[Steve P.]

I guess it does to some, but most of us do much more difficult work on a regular bassis.. Besides, if you take a look at what you COULD save in fuel costs I don't think it's such a pain in the ass.

Ex:   If you drive 15,000 miles per year and get 10 miles to the gallon, you will have used 1500 gallons of fuel.. At a cost of $2.50 per gallon you will have spent $3,750.oo on fuel.. If you where to do this and over 5 years you would have spent $18,750.oo... That's allllot of Charger money!!

So it takes some time and money to set it up. Big deal.. It would mean a weekend day away from this board to set it up. Also a little time each week to pick up and strain your next batch.. How long does it take you to make $3,750.oo?? On top of that, straight Veggie oil will not mess up the environment.. Only the political oil whores!!   (Place big smiley here).....

First of all I was not attacking you, I simply stated it sounded like a pain in the ass.   I used your quote because it showed everything you had to do.

Furthemore not that it's any of your bussiness it takes me 2 weeks to make the $3,750.00 amount, by the way I don't have weekends off, I take a train to kansas city one day and come home the next, the next day I do it all over again.   I don't have assigned days off, sorry.

I guess it does to some, but most of us do much more difficult work on a regular bassis..

  Not even gonna comment on that.   Also, check my post count, I do not spend nearly as much time on here as you seem to think with the

It would mean a weekend day away from this board to set it up

.

Purple,,,, Take a pill... I was not and did not take aim at you.....  What I said was in general.. I'm happy that you make allot of money.. Many of us DO NOT!! I didn't post this JUST FOR YOU!!! This is a board that reaches out to the world..

If I sounded like I was attacking you, I am sorry.. I surely did NOT mean to..

You stated that it sounded like a pain in the ass.. I made the simple point that most of us do much more difficult stuff to our cars regularly!!

When I said, how long does it take you to make $$$$$.... This was not directed at you personally. It was meant to make people think.. For me, (personally), I cannot work overtime. Nor do I get a bonus.. I get chump change from workmens comp.. Others of us have yet a smaller income.. So if I see something that I think may help people out I write about it.. If you want to try it out or have something to add, Fine.. I certinly wasn't taking aim at you or anyone else...

[Steve P.]

Follow the link to 2 TV news interviews.


http://www.veggiepower.org/news.html

[purple70rt]

Hey steve, check your pm.  All's cool and I apologise!!!!!!!!!

[Andrew]

or, even easier than modifying your car, find yourself a vintage landini tractor
provided you heated the bulb thingy on the front, these would run on anything combustable, it even says that on the gas cap
because once its vaporised, all feul is pretty much the same, these will run on used engine oil, vege oil, possibly even beer.
Plus you get the added bonus of driving a tractor to work.



didnt the '99 charger concept run on natural gas??

[Steve P.]

Well that would certainly be strong enough to tow with but, I'm afraid it would be a very L00000ooooooooooooooooooong trip across the country!!   

[Charger_Fan]

Steering on wet & snowy roads could pose a problem too.

[Steve P.]

Here's a good read on our alternatives.

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-ethanol15jun15,0,3313642.story?track=tothtml


Toward the bottom they show what we produce already.. So WHY aren't we doing the same..  Oil products will allways be in our forseeable future, BUT WHY send all this money to other countries??

[Troy]

Ok, had to bring this back to the top. If any of you watch The Discovery Channel there is a show called "Dirty Jobs" and they had a segment on biodiesel today. Judging by the name of the show you know it's gotta be some fun stuff to produce. The figures they quoted were ~$0.50 per gallon to produce but the guy didn't state whether that included all the gas driving around to collect the used veggie oil, his time to pick all the oil up and to do all the mixing/transferring/testing, or the cost of all the equipment he had in his garage. It also showed that there's 20% waste (I guess) as glycerine but he never said what to do with it. Again, I have to ask what happens when places stop giving away the used fryer oil? I think I like the idea of growing alternative fuel (corn?) a bit better since it can be mass produced and distributed which should help control costs. Would environmentalists fight a corn refinery as much as they do an oil refinery? That would be interesting to see.

Edit: I found the answer to my glycerine question. Thanks Duey!

BTW, a by-product of the transestherization is glycerine which lots of huggy, felly natural soap makers will gladly accept, if not actually pay you for...

Duey

Troy