Header hell - Nasty Noises

[73Charger]

   I just got done putting on my new suumit headers (since one of mine had a whole in it) and was looking forward to hearing them.
Fired it up and ARGH it sounded horrible! 

Granted the driverside pipe was too short, so there is a giant leak there where I cobbed a couple adapters together before I take it to a muffler shop to have them lengthen the pipe, and I know new headers that arent coated (black paint only) are noisy until they get some good use, BUT something sounds terribly wrong. Not only are these really loud, but it sounds like a metal ticking/rattle.  I drove it for one block last night and thought it was chewing itself up inside or something.  Under the hood it was noisy as well as in the car, but I couldn't pin point the noise like it was coming from a cylinder or anything.  Under the hood it kind of sounded like crazy valve clattering.   Anyone had something like that happen?  The only other thing I did while the headers were off was to put on a flywheel cover plate while the starter was out.  It was in pretty good shape, but had a piece cut out of it, so I welded another piece in place. The engine always was pretty quiet before cept for the popping heard from the hole in the one header (at the bottom) so it was SO much quieter before.  Would having coolant leak out of the rear stud as it was pulled out cause any problems?  I replaced the 2 studs with bolts with black sealer on the threads. The passenger side I left alone since there was so much room anyways.  I didn't put anything on the gaskets. just scraped the surfaces clean, and put them together with the new gaskets. What should I do? 

[dodge freak]

Sounds like the header gasket is leaking. I always use that RTV silicone stuff like red or black on the gaskets. Thats what you need to do and make sure you use a good gasket like fel-pro or the paper might give out in a few weeks. They make copper gaskets too now but are like $40 or so. Think I still would use RTV on those too.

[RD]

look to see if your header is rattling against your frame rail or some other object from underneath

[73Charger]

ok, I'm pretty sure the headers are nice and clear, but I  know one place that is got to be loose is that gap where the driverside header was like 3" shorter than the old one so I turned the adapter around and put it into the header pipe so atleast most of the exhasut would keep  going out the back but that is cobbed together now.  If the gaskets are leaking, is there a specific type sound I will hear? I didnt see any exhaust coming out. I was afraid to torque the bolts too hard. Anyone know how much torque they are supposed to have?  As far as gaskets, the ones that came with the summit headers looked pretty good. Metalic in nature, i'd say.  Would the flywheel cover have a lot of vibration?  I didn't install one of the bolts / screws near the top since I didnt have enough to fit.  Man this sucks. Thanks for the replies guys - it helps to know I'm not alone.
I thought this would sound better! 

[dodge freak]

Get all the leaks that you see first taking care of, then see if its still bad. A small leak can make alot of noise. If the header gasket are leaking it make a ticking noise that can vary with the rpm's. If you drive it for a while it sometimes goes away or gets better but might return the next day when its cold again. As long as you have a free flowing muffler and no cat. converters it should not be too hard to seal.

[Jon Smith]

I suspect you have a leak as well, but have you checked the flexplate to converter bolts aren't hitting your new cover plate? thats if it is an auto

[73Charger]

Its an auto, and it was a plate I was putting over the converter. Two bolts pass through on the bottom and I put nuts on them but the other holes seem to just go into the case, so I don't see how they would hit anything.  The cover was all one piece with a small hole that the starter had to pass through.  Its a standard auto transmission hooked up to a 318, forget what they call it now - the small one.

[dodge freak]

On those header bolts I use Mr Gasket bolts and never reuse them. The ones I can put a socket head on I give it 20 lbs or so never check just till they are good and tight, the ones that need a open end wrench I got a S&K wrench and go as tightest as poss. The better wrench's can get them tighter

[73Charger]

Thanks, I'll put the torque wrench on them tonight. didn't want to strip anything. I had that problem with an intake in my old nova - and a pain in the butt that was - drilling and tapping, and can't figure how i could do that on heads without removing them, so I am being careful.

[Jon Smith]

I wasn't talking about the bolts holding the cover plate on I was talking about the bolts holding the flexplate onto the converter, if one is loose it can cause a hell of a racket, I know a few people who've had this, I was just thinking if your new cover plate isn't perfectly flat then the boltheads might be hitting it, you said you'd welded it, did you grind the weld down? did it warp?

of course it could still be the headers leaking, I'm just throwing in another possible cause

[dodge freak]

Look I just guess at 20 lbs , might be more like 15 lbs. I never used a torque wrench on them just stop when it felt very tight. You are right it be a first class bitch getting a broken bolt out thats why I throw away the bolts each time.

[dodge freak]

Those shields can make noise, thats 1 reason people leave them off, I threw mine away.

[deputycrawford]

I would start by removing the shield and start it again. If the sound is still there then shut if off immediately and check the flex plate to crank bolts. They are known to work loose and it sounds like the earth is ending. The sound your'e describing is not the headers. I agree with John Smith on that one.

[73Charger]

Well,  I torqued the bolts to 20 (the ones I could get the wrench on - and hand tightened the few others.
You were right on the # since I just checked my haynes and thats what it says for manifold bolts.

I checked the plate cover. I only have one bolt in it that is only like .5 " long so its not hitting anything. It then has the two starter bolts and bolt at the bottom holding it pretty well. Doesn't seem to be making any noise when I tapped it.
started the car, and it was quieter.
noise was coming from the one gap area between the one header and the exhaust pipe.
Took it for a drive around the block again, and almost immediately, it got louder, ticking type noise again.
pulled it back in the garage and it was loud buzzing type noise again, now from by the headers, it also was idling faster.

besides the bolts that I could not put the torque wrench on, I'm already at max torque, so I'm guessing  the gaskets are crap or don't line up?
OR - the headers aren't even. or i just dont have enough torque on those few bolts?

I noticed the old gaskets on there overlapped the ports on the back side so they must have stretched.  I never did check to make sure these were perfect to the ports. I guess I should have check the headers to see how even they were too.

[dodge freak]

Thats why the RTV silicone stuff works, it really does. What I would do and I know its a pain is take off the loudest side and get a new gasket for it and put a coating of that RTV black on both sides of the gasket making sure the head and header are clean, you might want to spray it all down with brake cleaner to get the oil and dirt off, not carb. cleaner. You don't have to RTV the head or header just the gasket and bolt the header back on, if you don't have new bolts you can swap the side ones from the middle ones. After you start and run the motor a few mins. re-tighten the bolts, carefull you don't burn yourself. Let the motor sit a few hours so the silicone cures, I have driven it right afterwards and it still was ok but this curing bit somebody told me. Hopefully you won't have to do both sides but you might. It last a good long time and you can get better flange gaskets later on if need be. At least those you don't have to worry if the bolts break, the mounting ring might bend a bit thats ok.

[73Charger]

Thanks, I will try to re-tighten things tomorrow, and if it isn't enough, I'll get some new sealant and try that. Can't I just use the same gasket? Yeah - I'm cheap but I got an excuse, I'm poor. The heads must be pretty good surfaces since the old gaskets worked fine and the engine is like new, so, wouldnt that suggest that any leak must be on the header side?
I'm thinking if tightening the odd bolts and re-torquing does not work, I'll have to pull them off again, and check for uneveness, and maybe have to grind any impurities.  Do people have to do this? Guess I trusted summit too much. :-(

[dodge freak]

Well some headers are flatter than others and sometimes a bit of the old gasket sticks to the head or headers. I use a straight razor blade to clean it up. I guess if the old gasket is not blown out or damage you could reuse it. Thats the nice thing about those copper gaskets they claim you can clean them up and reuse. I tell you I never seen a header gasket seal with nothing on it, might be ok but you will hear a ticking noise sometimes. It depends on how loud your exhaust is, some are loud all the time and then you won't hear it, but my exhaust is only loud when the motors under a heaving load, just cursing is not too loud at all. Oh that RTV stuff is so good some people claim you need no gasket but I allway use one.

[RD]

get a set of percy soft aluminum header gaskets, they are a lifetime gasket and no need for rtv.  they work like a champ.


secondly, just because this is what i do... i run studs on my heads and use a lockwasher and nuts to tighten down my headers.  I never have an issue of them getting loose.

[dodge freak]

That sounds great cause that RTV stuff is a pain to get off, never try those newer type of gaskets they make now. Next time I will, dry - that be so nice not have to clean everything up just cause the header came off.

[73Charger]

$45 for gaskets - (summit) damn - they BETTER be good enough to fix the problems with their own headers!

[Chryco Psycho]

make sure the top of the header flange is NOT hitting the lip on the head where it angles out to the valve cover rail
you definatly have a header leak at the head

[73Charger]

re-torquing quiets things down, then as soon as I bring it over idle like 1500-2000, things loosen up and it gets noisy again.  I guess I'll have to try rtv or fancy gaskets. like anything, they dont build em like they used to.  It does bother me a bit that each time I've tested it, that the bolts have loosened and had to be re-torqued. 
  I did notice that the old header bolts were pretty easy to get off - thought that was wierd but it was always quiet. 

[dodge freak]

They do sell fancy header bolts than can lock in to place but I never needed those, think the RTV helps seal or lock them in place. I would not use thread locker-the drops that go on the threads of bolts cause if the bolt or bolts snap off taking them off you need to pull the head.

PS-you said you did not want to spend alot-thats me also-so I would just get a $5 tube of black RTV and take the header off and if the gasket is not damage yet just put a thick layer of RTV on both sides of the gasket and put it back on. My header been on for 4 years now and only leaks sometimes when the motors ice cold and the noise is gone in 2-3 mins. and stays gone all day, sometimes weeks. But it is a mess to clean up if the header needs to come off.

[73Charger]

Yeah Im going to try that rtv.  now when you put that on, do you just put a thin bead around the ports or do you also need to circle the bolts? How big a bead and do you put the gasket on quick or do you let it sit at all before putting things together?

[dodge freak]

I put it on good and heavy, the exhaust will burn it off if it seeps in to the ports. On that I don't wait but you could. I like to have the motor a little warm to help cure it. I don't think I put any right by the bolt holes on the middle part but the end ports yes. Now I like to start the motor right up-the header might start smoking, thats just the RTV it only do it once, then after 1 min or so re-thighten the bolts. I have let it sit for a few hours afterwards and then I have waited only 15 mins. Either way seems to work. Just make sure the head and headers are clean of any old gaskets and I like to spray brake cleaner to get the oil and dirt off so the RTV seals good. They been doing this for 25-30 years now, long before all these fancy gaskets and bolts came out.