Flush/fill that migrated into blown head gasket and plugged up radiator. Read on

[myk]

And that Orange crap!...don't bother, it enhances electrolysis, over time rotting metal parts.

Death-Cool, I tell you.  Death Cool!

[70charginglizard]

I think we're getting away from each other here, I'm not trying to discount your train of thought on the cracked head scenario, on the contrary I agree with it 100% I'm just calling it an exhaust leak, whereas you're calling it a water leak. We are essentially both correct....A crack in the head  between the combustion chamber and water jacket or port will be a two way street. water will leak down into the combustion chamber when the pressure will allow it, which is why you would typically lose pressure with the engine off... but , when you start the engine it will become a path for exhaust gasses to leave the combustion chamber, because of the substantial pressure difference. this is where we get to my earlier point about the bars leak, in a cracked head scenario between water and exhaust, anything short of a weld will not withstand the pressure.

Very interesting with the vacuum gauge for checking for a cracked head. Grandpa never passed down that information to me, but there is another way. most shops out there have some sort of emissions equipment that will have a device for sniffing exhaust. they are great at detecting stuff like hydrocarbons, a byproduct always found in exhaust, but not in cooling systems....So if you take the "sniffer" and instead of sticking it in the tail pipe. hover it just over the water in the radiator, engine running , of course. if you get any hc reading at all! then you can be assured you have a need to remove your heads.this procedure is not new, magic or involve Quantum physics. I would be surprised if this test will cost you more than 20 dollars, my shop does this for me for free.....

I hope this clears up what I'm talking about.

about my misunderstanding of the" pressure hopping up" to mean a gradual thing, oops my-bad! but really unimportant, as a very, very! small crack can reek havoc on your cooling system, in the form of small air pockets that will cause overheating very quickly, though hardly noticeable at the rad cap..A gradual pressure/volume increase would be normal, since heat creates expansion in everything, that I know of. in your car only to a certain point though. water only expands so much. volcanoing,that you mentioned earlier.. is caused by gas or air escaping, bringing the water along with it. this indicates the water is boiling, or releasing gas.When this happens and you wait a good long while for the red hot motor to cool down, and then refill the system with water again, engine running , so you don't crack the heads. you only end up back at square one again with the air pocket problem.. vicious cycle!

So this is realy just my humble opinion, do with it what you will!

And that Orange crap!...don't bother, it enhances electrolysis, over time rotting metal parts.

Whole heartedly now. and with everything else I've searched upon I can see now that I don't have much choice. The heads are coming off. There has got to be a crack between between one of the head exhaust ports and a water passages in the one of the heads. That's all it can possibly be at this point.

Now the only question I have left now is.....WHICH ONE?

There's has got to be a way to tell. Obviusly with a crack like that the cylinder chambers are not going to tell me anything because the problem doesn't feed into them. Thats probably why my spark plugs all look completely normal (no water jet cleaning on them at all) so thats pretty much so useless as of narrowing the culprite head.

That emmisions sniffer proceedure your talking about isn't going to zero in of the bad head either it looks like. All it's going to do is tell me from the radiator, there are gasses intering the coolant system. Pretty much so know that now.

So is there any way to zero in on that head? If you use this Vacuum pressure proceedure thing. Where do you plug it in at? I can see how it might be able to track a leak or crack between and exhaust port and the chamber but I don't quite see how it can find a leak or crack between the exhaust port and a water port??? (which I'm sure is what my problem is now.)

So the big question of the day is....Is there a way to specifically zero in on a head that has a exhaust port (not exhaust chamber) to water passage crack in it while it's still on the motor? and if so, How?

This motor only has less than 5000 miles on it and if I don't have to remove one of those heads I sure would like to avoid that senerio if possible.

Thank you so much for the comments. It really logically explains what I am sure of is now is going on with my car.....Excellent feed back.


(god Im glad I didn't get jumpy and throw that Barr's leak stuff in there)

(How much you want to bet that when those heads were ported and polished. That the machine shop ported them too much and weakened one of the exhaust ports close to a water passage)

[MorePwr]

C mone, you work for the lazy B don't ya? you must have heard of DyePen... Dye penetrant inspection? a process used to find minuscule cracks.  most machine shops use the same process, because the crack can be so small you can't see it.

Determining which head without close inspection? sorry can't help you there. not a road I would travel. with the recent overheats coupled with extra machining done to the heads for porting, even if I found the culprit to be a head gasket, I would still have both heads gone through. to a machinist, your heads are a matched set, they should go to the doc's together.

ps just added this
Now that I have some coffee in me and re read your question, I see that I missed the question of how to distinguish between a port or a chamber leak?.........I don't know, other than less likelyhood of of exhaust entering the cooling system. the end result to me would be the same anyhow

[70charginglizard]

C mone, you work for the lazy B don't ya? you must have heard of DyePen... Dye penetrant inspection? a process used to find minuscule cracks.  most machine shops use the same process, because the crack can be so small you can't see it. Yeah I know....I was just testing ya...lol That's basically the magnaflux process on cars right? (Test 2)
Determining which head without close inspection? sorry can't help you there. not a road I would travel. with the recent overheats coupled with extra machining done to the heads for porting, even if I found the culprit to be a head gasket, I would still have both heads gone through. to a machinist, your heads are a matched set, they should go to the doc's together. Good point. It's just not something I'm looking forward to. I'm going for the driver side first because it's the biggest pain in the rear.
ps just added this
Now that I have some coffee in me and re read your question, I see that I missed the question of how to distinguish between a port or a chamber leak?.........I don't know, other than less likelyhood of of exhaust entering the cooling system. the end result to me would be the same anyhow

Either way. Thanks again for all the input. I really appreciate it. Better go get that gasket set ordered up and put my overalls on. Gonna be an interesting couple of months here. Wish me luck.


How much you want a bet that I probably had a small fracture on one of the exhaust ports where I had all the port and polish done in close proximedy to one of the water ports in one of the heads and when doing the flush on the system, I didn't allow enough time for the engine to cool off between flush and water and finished off the fracture into a nice little crack.

Boy we got a nice little book here now. Someone should really store this in the arcives somewhere for other with this kind of problem to enjoy. 

[MorePwr]

keep us apprised

[firefighter3931]

Kelly, when you flushed the cooling system out did you pour some neutralizer in afterwards ? The flush additive is highly corrosive and if not neutralized will eat head gaskets....FYI. You seem convinced that it's a cracked head, but that might not be the case. Baking soda is a good neutralizer for future referance. 

Assuming you pull the heads and have them magnafluxed and pressure tested ; If the crack is in the port it can be epoxied by a machine shop and sealed up.


Ron

[70charginglizard]

Kelly, when you flushed the cooling system out did you pour some neutralizer in afterwards ? The flush additive is highly corrosive and if not neutralized will eat head gaskets....FYI. You seem convinced that it's a cracked head, but that might not be the case. Baking soda is a good neutralizer for future referance. 

Assuming you pull the heads and have them magnafluxed and pressure tested ; If the crack is in the port it can be epoxied by a machine shop and sealed up.


Ron

Yep
Pretty convinced. Unless some miricle guy comes over to my place and pushes some magic button that fixes the problem I'm sticking with the conclusion I've come to.
I did do the baking soda thing, if anything, to protect the radiator and heater core while it sits around doing nothing for the next two months or how ever long it takes me to fix this problem.

Thanks

[GT]

Try removing the exhaust manifolds - you may be able to tell which port/head is leaking.

[firefighter3931]

Kelly, when you flushed the cooling system out did you pour some neutralizer in afterwards ? The flush additive is highly corrosive and if not neutralized will eat head gaskets....FYI. You seem convinced that it's a cracked head, but that might not be the case. Baking soda is a good neutralizer for future referance. 

Assuming you pull the heads and have them magnafluxed and pressure tested ; If the crack is in the port it can be epoxied by a machine shop and sealed up.


Ron

Yep
Pretty convinced. Unless some miricle guy comes over to my place and pushes some magic button that fixes the problem I'm sticking with the conclusion I've come to.
I did do the baking soda thing, if anything, to protect the radiator and heater core while it sits around doing nothing for the next two months or how ever long it takes me to fix this problem.

Thanks

Dang, i was hoping it might have been something simple that you might have overlooked. Sounds like you did everything right Kelly. Guess it's time to pull the top end and have the heads pressure tested.


Ron

[70charginglizard]

Try removing the exhaust manifolds - you may be able to tell which port/head is leaking.

Interesting idea. I'll scope that real good when the manifolds are off. but even if I find the crack that way they will still have to be removed to repair it.

Thanks again

[Steve P.]

Quit screwing around on the key board and pull your heads. They have been equally hot and equally exposed to the flush. Pull them both. Find the problem. Fix the problem and put new head gaskets on. It's that simple.

No drinking till they are on the bench... 

[70charginglizard]

Quit screwing around on the key board and pull your heads. They have been equally hot and equally exposed to the flush. Pull them both. Find the problem. Fix the problem and put new head gaskets on. It's that simple.

No drinking till they are on the bench... 

I'm on it Steve. Just needed the weekend to get here. Gotta pull all the BS off today and pull the actual heads next weekend

Now where are my overalls

[deputycrawford]

Somebody mentioned earlier in this post to stay away from clutch fans. Just the opposite, the clutch fan alleviates the jerking of the water pump bearing. This keeps it from breaking in half and sending the fan into the radiator. Mine only cost me $300 to get re cored. My seven blade fan with a fan clutch runs really cool. I can barely get it to the 180 degree mark. I run a 180 thermastat also. A clutch fan also allows the waterpump to spin faster than the engine at high RPMs. This allows more HP to get to the rear wheels. Less drag, more power. "It can't take much more power captain."Just my 

[Steve P.]

Quit screwing around on the key board and pull your heads. They have been equally hot and equally exposed to the flush. Pull them both. Find the problem. Fix the problem and put new head gaskets on. It's that simple.

No drinking till they are on the bench... 

I'm on it Steve. Just needed the weekend to get here. Gotta pull all the BS off today and pull the actual heads next weekend

Now where are my overalls

Hahaha...   (YOU DON'T NEED NO STINKING OVERALLS)...  Once you get started working on that nice clean motor you will go all the way. I would venture to say you should have both heads off in under 3 hours..

Drain coolantwhile getting out your tools.

Remove exhaust from heads.

Remove only accessory bolts that need be.

Remove throttle linkage.

Remove intake with carb still attached.

Remove valley pan.

Remove heads.

Inspect gaskets for leaks.

Inspect heads for cracks. (look very closely between the valve seats).

Clean up while having a few cold ones.   

[70charginglizard]

Parts are ordered and being shipped-

DCC-3690175 Gaskets, Teardown Set, Mopar Big Block RB, Set  $49.95 1  $49.95


DCC-4529792 Spark Plug Wires, Restoration, Carbon Suppression, 7mm, Orange, 90 Degree Boots, Chrysler, Big Block, V8, Set  $35.95 1  $35.95
Nice new pretty spark plug wires while Im at it. 


LCT-37467 Sealant, RTV 598, Silcone, Black, 80 ml, Each  $3.75 1  $3.75


MRG-5936 Exhaust Gaskets, Header, Ultra-Seal, Stock Port, Mopar, Big Block, Pair  $14.88 1  $14.88


SUM-900037 Gasket Scraper, Alloy Steel Blade, Black Plastic Handle, Each  $7.88 1  $7.88

[Plumcrazy]

Just throw a set of aluminum Edelbrocks on there and be done with it. 

[Steve P.]

Just throw a set of aluminum Edelbrocks on there and be done with it. 

Stop doing this>

[70charginglizard]

Aint got no 1300/1400 dollars to shell out.

On another note. I got the exhaust manifold off on the driver side and ran into something very interesting.

Head ehaust Ports 1 3 and 5 looked very dry and only showed typical carbon buildup on the insides of them but head exhaust port no 7 had this apparent wetness at the aft edge, close to the aft exhaust manifold stud.

You don't think that perhaps the stud had a leak path from the water port it goes into to the exhaust there do you?

It looks very suspicious to me. Here is the pic of No 7

[70charginglizard]

Here is the pic of no 3,5 and 7 for comparision

Took the driver side exhaust manifold off too but it showed no sign of leaking or visible cracks anywhere inside the exhaust ports or around the manifold studs.

[firefighter3931]

Well, the outside bolts are "wet" so this could very well be your problem. It might be worthwhile to put a bolt in the end holes and re-test the cooling system with a pressure tester to see if it holds. If it does then you've found the source of your water leakage.


Ron

[Steve P.]

Now that we are into 4 pages, I don't remember for sure what you had said about water loss. I thought you said it was staying full!!

I would do just what Firefighter said and seal the bolts in the head. Then pressure test it with the exhaust manifold off. This will tell you for sure.

[70charginglizard]

Little hard to do when the pressure tester is at the radiator shop. Can't drive it there now. Would probably get arrested for excessive noise.

But Firefighter. That is a brilliant idea. You's da Man!!!

Anyone gots a coolant pressure tester I can borrow.....anyone?

Sure would be nice if I didn't have to take these heads off. 

About the water again. I wasn't loosing water that I could tell but it could be because this problem was mainly working on the exhaust gas going into the system and not much on the way of coolant traveling back out. I noticed that the stud didn't have any sealant on it so perhaps the exhaust manifold was super heating the stud that instals directly into the water port. This is that pesky stud that is a real pain in the butt to get to because of the steering column and it has that weird long nut that goes thru the manifold.

Very suspicious.

[70charginglizard]

OK. Thru screwin around. I just ordered up me a collant pressure tester from Summit. It's being shipped Monday with my other stuff.

Need one anyway if I'm going to be running into these kind of problems.

Another thing I forgot to show you guys last night were the pictures of the exhaust manifold studs that go into the head on cylinders 5, and 7.
As I found when initially building the motor 4 years ago these studs screw directly into the head into water ports so you have to seal them up with high temperature rtv sealant or a leak path with generate from them.

As you can see by the picture, the stud on the left is from the aft most stud location on cylinder 5 and did have sealant on it when I pulled it.
The one in the middle was the forward most stud location on cylinder 7 and also had sealant still on it when I pulled it.
But that aft most stud on cylinder 7 didn't have any sealant residue on it at all it looked like it was completely free of sealant as if it had been completely washed off.

But again...note, I was watching the exterior very carefully everytime it was overheating and saw not exterior leakage. Interesting hu

(ignore the apparent wetness. Thats just penetrate spray I put on them to break loose the nuts. There stuck)

Unfortunately I'm now on hold till my new pressure tester shows up so this is all for now.

Later

[firefighter3931]

Sure would be nice if I didn't have to take these heads off. 

About the water again. I wasn't loosing water that I could tell but it could be because this problem was mainly working on the exhaust gas going into the system and not much on the way of coolant traveling back out. I noticed that the stud didn't have any sealant on it so perhaps the exhaust manifold was super heating the stud that instals directly into the water port. This is that pesky stud that is a real pain in the butt to get to because of the steering column and it has that weird long nut that goes thru the manifold.

Very suspicious.

Yep, it would be nice if the heads didn't have to come off. Sealing up the bolts and pressure testing will tell you if that was the source of your leak...or not. If it still leaks (doesn't hold pressure) then you know to look elsewhere.

The leak doesn't have to be big or noticable for there to be problems as you know....once the system can't be pressurized it wll cause overheating. The coolant would be vapourized as it was being sent out the tailpipe and on a leak this small it would be difficult to detect because the leak is not in the chamber and mixing with the air fuel mix and creating white smoke out the back.

Good call on the pressure tester....it's a good tool to have in the box and will come in handy for future diagnostic work. Nice detective work Kelly 


Ron

[70charginglizard]

Colling system pressure tester showed up today.
Sealed that head exhaust stud back into the head again real good yesterday.
Just got finished re-pressure testing it to 16 PSI.

Low and behold.....5 minutes later. 16 PSI and holding.


HURRAY!!!!

So let summarize:

If your cooling system isn't holding pressure, don't ever pull the heads off untill you check those exhaust manifold studs for sealant loss. If there is sealant loss on them. Seal them all back up real good and recheck you cooling system for pressure loss after sealant cure.
It may be a source of your radiator pressure loss and overheating issues.

Thanks god I didn't pull those heads.


soooooooo Happy. 

happy happy joy joy, happy happy joy joy.