Engine Break in.

[deputycrawford]

Many of you know my 383 repair thingy. I am planning to use 8 qts of Rotella Diesel Oil for break in. It has one of the highest percentege zinc additive. My question is, do I have to continue to use high zinc stuff permanently or do I change to something else? If so, then how many miles do I have to wait before the switch? I just hope the cam breaks in. My engine builder says he never removes inner springs for break in and I have 160 lbs on the seat. OOF. I will pray for a seamless break in. I hope this works.

[firefighter3931]

Replace the oil and filter immediately after you breakin the cam and again at 500 miles. Throw a can of GM EOS in there while you're at it. I would continue to run a high zinc/phosphorus oil forever. Another oil that has both of these additives is Valvoline Racing vr-1 20/50. The racing oil also has anti-foaming agents for high speed operation. That is what i will be running in mine.

Good luck on the breakin. Personally, i would pull the inner springs....just to be safe. The other thing you should check is lifter rotation in the bores when everything is lashed to spec. If you can't see the lifters moving when you rotate it over with a breaker bar then you will wipe the cam. Of course after you've done this the lifters all need to come back out for some fresh moly lube on the lifter faces because it will be scrubbed off during the rotation check. After it's all back together then it's pre-lube time....then say a prayer. 


Ron

[deputycrawford]

Ok, thanks. I remember you once talked about the GM EOS. I wrote everything down. I will be taking the day off tomorrow to get the engine ready for break in.  I have to fix a broken trans cooler line. Then its bolt on the extras and start up. I will go to the VR-1 after break in and switch to a WIX filter or something. Anything is better than the ORANGE thing i'm using for break in.

[RD]

i would not even use the fram for break in.  it is better to buy a good filter and spend the 3 extra dollars, instead of spending hundreds to thousands later because your filter decided to let loose and get sucked up into your oil pump.

$3 for $1000 insurance is worth it in my opinion.

[deputycrawford]

Ok, I just checked my bank account and I just received the lump sum I was expecting. Well, its not THAT much but, while I am parts running for the EOC and  other things I will go to my "expensive" parts place, aka NAPA, and pick up 2 WIX filters. Is there another recomended brand I could use? I am open to any suggestions.

[deputycrawford]

Two things Firefighter. One; If I find all the lifters rotating during a manual check, does that almost guarntee the cam will not wipe? Second; I removed a spring before I installed the heads and could not get the inner spring to come out of the outer spring. Does that mean they like each other too much? If the lifters rotate with full spring pressure then should I be safe? Well, that's two more questions but oh well....lol

[Chryco Psycho]

A cam can wipe for a # odf reasons other than rotation , do your best & it should be fine
the inner springs will come out of rotated , 160 PSI is not excessive though

[firefighter3931]

   Dep, if the lifters don't rotate it will wipe for sure. There's no guarantee that lifter rotation will keep everything happy inside. The 160lb seat pressure doesn't concern me as much as the open pressure over the nose with a dual spring would.  I don't know what the open pressure on those springs are though.....hopefully less than 400 lbs.

The wix or Napa Gold fillters are excellent.....get rid of that orange thing asap !


Ron

[deputycrawford]

Thanks guys. I have the EOS in it and the Rotella oil. I have primed it three or four times until my drill starts to smell..lol  It works really hard with all that oil pressure. I should be able to start it late on Sunday morning. I am also using the WIX silver flilter for the break in and the 500 change. I will go to Gold after that. I will let everybody know.

[cuda66273]

Quote from John Mingas, Sales Manager Lucas Oils:

"Lucas Racing Oil does have Zinc content by virtue of being oil - all oil contains some Zinc.  It's a traditional anti-wear element in additive packages but its level is being reduced by mandate.  Our Racing Oil and Oil Stabilizer Products all have very capable anti-wear additives that are, if anything, more effective than the traditional Zinc."

Quote from Callies Cranks:
"If you use Diesel Oil in your engine you warranty is null and void."

Quote from Clevite Bearings tech dept:
"We do not recommend you use diesel oil in any gas engine application."

Quote from Drummond Auto Machine:
"Are you freakin nuts?"

....need I continue?

In the past month or so I have pursued the truth about motor oils vigorously, we have known for a few years now about the mandated reduction and the intended elimination of Zinc in Motor Oils by the EPA.

High quality Racing motor oils are now using a Polymer to replace the Zinc, surprisingly they actually work better than the zinc did.  A company out of Washington State, Power Punch, has marketed these polymers in a near pure form for years.  I've used it for years with great success but until now I didn't realize what made it work so well.  Why does this stuff reduce oil temps in engines and rear ends by 20-30*?

Now I know, it's the polymers and the shear strength of the molecules.  There's way more to my research and way to much to type in a post, but it works and I now understand why and how.

Motor oils are rated by their capacity to maintain molecular structure under pressure, this is referred to as "Shear Strength"  or simply put, the amount of pressure they can withstand before the molecules fracture and release from the metal surface they're intended to protect.

Conventional Motor oils 1500 PSI
Conventional Motor Oil with 3.5% Zinc (Racing Oil) 3000 PSI
Most Synthetics 4500 PSI
Conventional Oil with 15-20% Power Punch 30,000 PSI

All petroleum based oils use a base referred by most in the industry as to as Chevron 600 most refinery's offer the same thing under different names but it's all the same stuff, pure base oil.  Additives are used to make trans, rear end, motor oils etc., everyone has a little different secret group of additives to produce their "Better" oil. 

But, Unless you can stop the oil from fracturing it won't protect the steel mating surfaces.  These new long life blah blah blah oils simply have a tiny amount of these polymers added to the same old 600 base that we've used for 50 years....now with nearly all the zinc removed from the recipe.

When it comes to breaking in a cam EOS is an excellent choice, when we built steel lifter motors we would use 2 of the 16 oz bottles with a good straight 30W Motor Oil and the best oil filter money can buy, WIX or the NAPA GOLD.

In reading over your post I have to wonder why you have 165# seat pressure on what I assume is a steel lifter flat tappet cam?  If it's a hydraulic motor the seat pressure should be around 115-120, solids take a little more .....around 135-140.  You should consult with the cam manufacturer or look at your cam card for recommended seat and open pressures.  Exceeding the max seat pressure is looking for trouble and it's something I would never attempt, I believe that's why your engine builder has told you to remove the inner springs.  I have derived from my research that off the shelf motor oils have no place in our flat tappet engines, unless, the magic ingredient is added (Power Punch).  In the last few years we have noticed that core engines and customers engines coming in for rebuild are showing massive cam wear, this is something we very seldom saw 6-8-10 years ago, something is causing this and I can only surmise that it's the oil, that's the only thing that has changed.  So it's not just break-in you need to worry about

Schubeck Composite lifters really like 220-250 seat and 400+ over the nose in either solid or Hyd. and you don't have to break them in, fire it up, set the timing and carb and go racing.  You will NEVER-EVER have a cam failure.  You can swap cams, use old cams, swap lifter bores around, put them in another engine, no problem.  The only thing that can hurt them is valve float. 

We have not built a steel lifter motor (Hyd. Solid or Roller) in 3 years, we have not had a cam failure on a Schubeck Lifter motor ever.  They are the absolute best lifter made, all the benefits of a roller and none of the failures, valve spring issues or moving parts dropping in the engine.

I don't know who started all this Diesel oil stuff on the internet but I'd like to find that person and ask them where they got their tech data. Show it to me in writing that diesel oil is recommended for gas engines and it has zinc in it.  The MSDS sheets on Delo 30 and 40 do not mention Zn content anywhere.

[firefighter3931]

Rotella has a bunch of zinc and phosphorus.....1200ppm + on both elements last time i saw the data. Valvoline vr-1 20-50 racing is even higher. Mobil 1 15-50 also has high levels of both. Royal purple racing had the highest levels that i remember seeing. The lighter weight passenger car oils (dino and synthetic) have almost none to conform to the epa requirements for emission control.

Lots of racers are using the Rotella in high horsepower, high rpm combinations with excellent results. Take that for what it's worth and run whatever you want. For me, in a dino oil it'll be rotella or vr-1 valvoline 20-50 with a flat tappet cam, period. 


Ron

[cuda66273]

1200 PPM is .12%

Rotella from their 2003 MSDS

Mixture         90 - 98.99 %volume        Highly refined petroleum oils
68649-42-3    1 -   4.99 %volume        Zinc Dialkyldithiophosphate
Mixture           1 -  4.99 %volume         Proprietary additives


Name CAS no

Zinc O,O-di(C1-14-alkyl) dithiophosphates  68649-42-3
Zinc (mixed O,O-bis(sec-butyl and isooctyl)) dithiophosphates 113706-15-3
Zinc-O,O-bis(branched and linear C3-8-alkyl) dithiophosphates 133628-63-4
Zinc O,O-bis(2-ethylhexyl) dithiophosphate 4259-15-8
Zinc O,O-bis(mixed isobutyl and pentyl) dithiophosphates 68457-79-4
Zinc mixed O,O-bis(1,3-dimethylbutyl and isopropyl) dithiophosphates 84605-29-8
Zinc O,O-diisooctyl dithiophosphate 28629-66-5
Zinc O,O-dibutyl dithiophosphate 6990-43-8
Zinc mixed O,O-bis(2-ethylhexyl and isobutyl and isopropyl) dithiophosphates  85940-28-9
Zinc O,O-bis(dodecylphenyl) dithiophosphate  54261-67-5
Zinc O,O-diisodecyl dithiophosphate  25103-54-2
Zinc O-(6-methylheptyl)-O-(1-methylpropyl) dithiophosphate  93819-94-4
Zinc O-(2-ethylhexyl)-O-(isobutyl) dithiophosphate  26566-95-0
Zinc O,O-diisopropyl dithiophosphate  2929-95-5
Zinc (mixed hexyl and isopropyl) dithiophosphates  68412-58-8
Zinc (mixed O-(2-ethylhexyl) and O-isopropyl) dithiophosphates  68909-93-3
Zinc O,O-dioctyl dithiophosphate 7059-16-7
Zinc O,O-dipentyl dithiophosphate  7282-31-7
Zinc O-(2-methylbutyl)-O-(2-methylpropyl) dithiophosphate  94022-84-1
Zinc O-(3-methylbutyl)-O-(2-methylpropyl) dithiophosphate  94022-85-2

The Products Register lists about 30 different substances/groups of substances of this type. The total quantity of ZnDDP (1998) is about 1,500 tonnes, distributed between some 1,000 products.

ZnDDP is usually manufactured by first forming dialkyldithiophosphates by a reaction between phosphorus sulphide (P4S10) and alcohol. These are then neutralised by adding zinc oxide, whereupon ZnDDP is obtained.

Zinc dialkyl- and diaryldithiophosphates are used in many lubricating oils as anti-wear agents. These compounds are multifunctional because they are also anti-corrosive and anti-oxidative. They have been used since the 1930s and today are the dominant anti-wear agent, occurring in virtually every motor oil on the market.

ZnDDP is used in motor oils, hydraulic pumps, gear boxes, transmissions and metal machining. Usually ZnDDP constitutes about 1% of these oils, and it acts by creating a protective layer on metallic surfaces at elevated pressures and temperatures. Anti-wear agents functioning in this way are usually called EP additives, EP being short for "extreme pressure". The characteristic of substances of this type is that at a certain given pressure and temperature they disintegrate and, with their functional groups (sulphur and/or phosphorus) react with the iron in the metal.

These inorganic ironsulphides and/or ironphosphides which are formed provide extremely strong layers on the metallic surfaces, added to which, they give a lower coefficient of friction.

So you can see that there is many configurations of this chemical. All have different characturistics but all are mandated by the EPA as to how much actual Zinc is in the product.

The facts are simple....Zinc has been drasticaly reduced.

Polymers have replaced Zinc as an anti-wear agent.

[firefighter3931]

Here is a virgin oil analysis done by an independant laboratory for Catepillar. I will post the results so members can see how much Zinc certain oils have, or don't have. The first one is your typical passenger car dino oil : Mobil 1 10w30 which has low zinc and phosphorus levels. Zinc and Phosphorus are part of the EP (extreme pressure) additive package that our flat tappet cams/lifters need to survive. The more EP protection the better 

Zinc = 858
Phosphorus = 750

[firefighter3931]

Ok, next one is Mobil 1 full synthetic 15w50 which has a higher level of protection and EP additives. This stuff is fairly expensive compared to a dino oil but might be worth it for some people for peace of mind. The numbers :

Zinc : 1376
Phos : 1223

[firefighter3931]

Here's the one you're waiting for : Shell Rotella 15w40 Diesel oil. Designed for exteme working conditions with a nice EP additive package. A relatively inexpensive dino oil available at Wallmart. Here are those numbers :

Zinc : 1218
Phos : 1115

[firefighter3931]

And finally, for the ultimate in protection : Royal Purple Racing 10w40 with the EP additive package and superior protection, but with it comes a significant increase in price. I haven't priced RP oil but i know it's expensive ! Here are those numbers :


Zinc: 1901
Phos : 1171

[firefighter3931]

To follow up on the above posts : I've read and heard that some of the diesel oils will be losing the EP additives in the near future.  That is something that we need to keep an eye on, for sure ! 

I couldn't find the data for the VR-1 racing oil but i do remember it being in the 1300-1400 ppm range for both Zinc and Phosphorus. I'm thinking that because VR-1 is a "race" oil it won't have to conform to the EPA requirements because it is for "off road" use only. That is something else we'll have to closely watch. 

Hopefully this helps clear up any confusion or questions.....


Ron

[dodge freak]

Great info guys thanks.

[NorwayCharger]

I sendt This mail to RP

Hi.
What kind of RP oil is best for my new build mopar 452 V8.
The engine has an hydraulic flat tappet camshaft, and i am aware of the reduction of ZDDP is bad for us who has this kind of "old" tech.
I see a lot of people running Shell Rotella diesel oil.
I was thinking of the w15-40 RP oil, is this a good choice?


This is the answer i got:


The reduced anti-wear additives (ZDDP or Zinc and phosphorus) came about in the API SM oils which were developed primarily for emissions reduction.

The RP API Street Motor Oils are built to the API SL classification and still offer excellent wear protection along with our proprietary additive technology called Synerlec, which increases the oil film's ability to resist metal to metal 3-4 times better than traditional lubricants.

For you big block with flat tappet technology, we recommend the use of the RP 10W40, RP 15W40 or RP 20W50 in our street oils.
You might also consider our XPR 10W40 or XPR 20W50 Motor Oils (Extreme Performance and Racing Oils formerly called Racing 41 or Racing 51).

These oils have a more robust additive system as they were designed for pure racing applications but are fully formulated and can be used in high performance street applications and can even be run extended drains as well.

Cheers and thanks for thinking of RP in Norway.

David

David Canitz
Tech Services Manager
Royal Purple Ltd
1 Royal Purple Lane
Porter, TX  77365
281-354-8600 x202
281-354-7335 fax
713-725-7207 cell
dcanitz@royalpurple.com

[deputycrawford]

Oh, man. I didn't know I was opening a can of worms with my original post. I did the engine break in and it seems to run fine. It sounds like its missing on one cylinder. I finally got to drive in around the block and sure enough. The engine comes alive like it flipped a light switch or something. I notice a little raw fuel type smoke from the driver's pipe. I will change the plugs and hopefully fix it. It deffinately sounds like a plug that pops on and off. The break in went mostly seamless. It started extremely fast when it fired. I checked the timing and I had it at 16 degrees at break in. That was about perfect. To answer one question, it has been reported by my engine builder that I have 160lbs on the seat and around 380 open at .555 lift (after lash). My engine builder put them in himself to make that much pressure. That's what he wanted. I did use the Rotella oil as recommended in, I believe, Car and Driver magazine, or something like that. They did an article on the oil industry. I am planning to go to Valvoline VR-1 racing oil for my next change. it will be around 100 miles and I will continue to use the WIX filters I get at NAPA. I know we all have our own opinions ans they are all different sometimes. Thats why I like posts like this. We get many tests and sources to make our conclusions. Keep em coming.

[firefighter3931]

Congrats on the successful fireup ! That was the purpose of this post originally, wasn't it  I'd swap that oil out asap...like right now ! Get some fresh VR-1 in there with a new filter and cut the old one up to see if there's any major metal inside. There will be some and that is normal so don't panic.  Pull the valvecovers and re-check the lash to see if anything has loosened up.

So, how do you like it so far ? How does it idle compared to the old XE hydraulic ? Inquiring minds want to know ! 


Ron


Ps. Don't worry about the oil hijack....it's all good. Fwiw, Comp Cams recommends Rotella for beakin with their cams. 

[deputycrawford]

I am confused by the post you just put in Firefighter. You said you run Rotella in all your stuff. I was only going to run the Rotella for the next 100 miles or so and change it for the VR-1 stuff. This engine hasn't even been half throttle yet so I thought I was safe so far. No worries on the hijack. I like the extra info and the new sources for info. I still have the plugs popping in and out with the firing thing. I have to find the flutter. Then I will be good. The car runs great other than that.

[dodge freak]

Did you change those plug wires ? I would try to get that taken care of fast you have unburned gas being draw in to the crankcase. I would changed that oil and filter also, not sure if I cut it open who cares whats in it can't do anything now but to run it and hope it be ok.

[deputycrawford]

The wires are Taylor wires. They make the MSD wires. The wires have only around 2000 miles on them. The wires look good and were not touching anything too hot. I will check them anyway, and also check the MSD distributor rotor again. Its gotta be something really simple. I will get it figured out.

[dodge freak]

I had a set of wires with less miles than 2000 miles -MSD supers and was getting a miss when the motor was hot with my MSD 7 al box. I switch boxes to a old MSD 6a that I used to run and the miss firing went away-drove it for almost a hour everything was fine so it had to be my 7 box right ? NO after 3 weeks the box came back from MSD all they did was to change 1 power lead and said it was run for 4 hours its perfect. I hook it back up and 10 min. later the missfire was back ! To make a long story short it turn out to be a bad plug boot -it had a tiny rip in it and was just touching a header. Seem like when the header was cold it was ok and when the header was hot the spark leak out. Why was the 6 box ok ? Cause the spark was not strong enough to jump out even with the header hot.

Always check those wires out no matter how new, I think I swap  just about everything before I check those wires.