Upper half rebuild time! Recommendations? *edit* - total rebuild?

[defiance]

Ok, I'm tired of question marks, I'm tired of dealing with crap, I'm done with it - I'm going to rebuild everything I can without removing the engine from the car, and do it RIGHT this time. 
Having said that, I really know very little about engine configuration, so I need a little help.  I plan on ordering all the parts in about 2 weeks and getting started.  For reference, the 440 in there now makes 212hp/357ft-lbs at the rear wheels... pretty dismal... and overheats like nobody's business.  I'd almost come to the decision to stick with what I've got and try to get it working, but when I really started doing the math, I might as well just do the whole top end right this time...  So.

To start with - what's NOT going to change...
The engine is a 440 from '76.  The block is bored .030 over.  The pistons are slightly dished, but I dont' have specs... Seems pretty minor, though (I'm guessing a <10 cc's?).  I'll try to get specifics on the pistons prior to finalizing these plans, but let's work on the assumption that they're, say, 8cc dished.  The crank is standard stroke. 

Now, onto what will be changed:

I've read LOADS of good reviews about Edelbrock Performer RPM heads.  So, I plan on going with a pair of those with an 88cc chamber.  I'll use .039" thick gaskets. 

If I'm doing my calcs right, that should put me just over 9.5/1 compression.  Considering that this is alum, which I'm told reduces the effective compression a bit, I think that be OK running on 93 octane pump gas, right?


Next is the intake, I'm thinking maybe a performer RPM?  I've got a bulge hood, so I could probably fit a torker II, but I'm guessing a perf-rpm would be better for the low end...

For the cam, this is where I really know very little, but this one sounded attractive to me:
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=LUN%2D60304&N=700+4294908110+4294840062+4294887637+4294887598+115&autoview=sku
The numbers *seemed* like they'd give a bit of a boost from stock without sacrificing too much idle stability and driveability.  This is where I'll probably need the most help...

I'll probably be using erson roller lifters, roller rockers and pushrods from 440source.

so...

What am I doing wrong with this config?  I'm SURE I'm missing something, but I don't know enough to know what yet. ..

[Rolling_Thunder]

dude - there is something wickedly wrong there...     212 rwhp out of a 440      my stock(ish) 383 makes 272...    so there is definately something wrong there....        nice to hear ur building plans...       i would find out the piston info - then select the heads based on that - 88 or 84cc...     the performer rpm is a good manifold (so i hear) and know people who put down 700 tq  with it....         your main concern should be cam ----    take advantage of the edelbrock heads with a nice cam....        should be running headers as well.

[Chryco Psycho]

Umm with the already low compression , the 88cc heads would be the wrong choice , at least use the 84 cc heads & you lose effective compression with alum heads too

[Rolling_Thunder]

hey psycho...    should he go with a .030" compressed gasket thickness as well ?       

[defiance]

On the 212 hp - I kept repeating to myself over & over that it's ok, no problem, hp numbers are always lower than you think....  but yeah, thats crappy

What kind of compression should I be targetting for 93 octane pump gas?  9.5/1 was what I was thinking...  I did a quick search on alum heads and several people said that it loses an effective 1.0 from the numerator, so I'm thinking I should target about 10.5/1 (which would effectively by 9.5/1) - does that sound OK?
As I noted earlier, once I've positively identified the pistons (probably a couple days) I'll adjust my plans, but bottom line is the edelbrock head & gasket combo that gets me closest to target compression, right?


As for the cam, I'll do more searches on here and see what looks good, but recommendations are VERY appreciated.  Especially if you're willing to explain why a particular cam's numbers are more desireable... I'm trying to learn the stuff. 

Headers...  Hm...  I'll do some searching on those as well; Not really sure what to look for in headers.

The input so far is MUCH appreciated, Thanks!

[defiance]

Chryco: I stumbled on your cam posts on cuda-challenger - GREAT stuff!!!

So with my newfound (probably scratching the surface) cam info, I now realize that cam wouldn't work with the mechanical roller lifters I had picked out.  I'd really like to stick with the mech roller lifters, so on to another cam...

Duration: I'm thinking I probably want an advertised duration in the 260-270, @.050 (not sure what that means) in the 220-230 range - The car is mostly going to be driven on city streets, so low-to-mid performance is most important to me; If it ever hits the interstate, it won't be much.  That's why I chose the performer-RPM intake, as well.

Lift: Ok, so lift is what has the most effect on idle, but the higher the better as far as intake/exhaust airflow - so this should be as high as I can stand the idle, right?  I would prefer a pretty nice idle - not quite stock-smooth, but still pretty smooth.  Is the upper .5xx to .6xx range too much?  That's pretty much the lowest available mech-roller cams.  I get the idea of what effect it has now, but not really sure what the scale is...

Overlap: I don't really see specs for overlap anywhere, so I'm lost on this one.... 

Centerline: I'd like a pretty wide power band rather than a single peak; Once again, it'll probably see low-mid rpm quite a bit (yeah for stop lights), so spreading the power out will probably be beneficial to me.  Probably 112 or so?



Ok - with all that in mind, I'm doing some quick looking for what's available... Mechanical roller cams don't seem to be available with relatively low durations, so I may have to either give up a bit there, or give up on the roller lifter/cam setup.  This crower, for example:
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=CRO%2D32412&N=700+4294908110+4294840062+4294887637+4294887246+4294838315+115&autoview=sku

Lunati voodoos come a little bit lower, such as this one:
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=LUN%2D60130&N=700+400421+314473+4294887246+4294838256+115&autoview=sku

So, is this too high a duration for what I want to accomplish?  Or, more to the point, do I need to give up on roller lifters?

Sorry if this has already been covered elsewhere; I'm still searching/reading/learning!

*edit* - I keep finding more info!

So it looks like these numbers are pretty close to what had been recommended for other people using the edelbrock heads, but they actually had recommended slightly longer durations.  I think I'm going to go with those recommendations and get this crane:
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=CRN%2D688521&N=700+4294908110+4294840062+4294887637+4294887246+115&autoview=sku



Now for headers --- Everybody recommends TTI, and similar configurations have had recommendations for the 2" setup.  Ok, that's what I'll do as well, then, unless anyone recommends otherwise.

[firefighter3931]

To really take advantage of an aluminum head you will need to upgrade the pistons. The static compression will be too low on a late model 440 to work properly. Ideally, you want 10:1 min with a flattop piston. The speedpro 2355 six-pack pistons are cheap and very durable. Do it right and you'll be much happier with the result.


Ron

[defiance]

Just to clarify (making sure I understand this all) - You advise changing the pistons because late-model ('76) 440 pistons are severely dished?

The pistons have been replaced, but it seems to have been built specifically for very low compression, so these are probably pretty dished, too...

I guess if I'm pulling this much of it apart anyway, I might as well take the engine out and do it all the way...

[grouseman]

Your current low compression engine needs a cam with very short duration, or it will be a dog.  Even a mild performance cam will kill your dynamic compression. 

[firefighter3931]

Just to clarify (making sure I understand this all) - You advise changing the pistons because late-model ('76) 440 pistons are severely dished?

That is correct. When you pull the heads bring the piston up to the top of the bore and take a measurement. If the piston is within .020 of the deck then it could work. This is also asuming you have a flattop piston with no dish. If the pistons are cast replacements for a 76 engine then they will be a poor choice for any type of performance build....especially with aluminum heads.


Ron

[Chryco Psycho]

I agree , you need to run 10:1 compression minimum , up to 10.5 with pump gas is fine , , use the Cometic gaskets so you do not have head gasket failures in the future
I really do not recommend roller lifters for a street engine I have a number of solid lifter grinds that with 1.6 ratio rockers will be very similar to roller grinds & will be more street friendly , I still use Ultradyne grinds for the best solid cam performance , there is no listing for these cams but they are still available from Lunati  

[defiance]

Is the reason you don't recommend roller lifters for street just because cams for them are really only available with high lift, or is there another problem with rollers?

Thanks for the assistance guys, this is GREAT stuff!

[defiance]

Alright - the combo I'm coming up with now is the 88cc heads:
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=EDL%2D60189&N=700+4294908110+4294840062+4294888798+4294925232+4294838998+400065+4294867081+4294867028+115&autoview=sku

along with a set of 1.8cc domed K.B. pistons:
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=UEM%2DKB236030%2D8&N=700+4294908110+4294840062+4294888798+4294925232+4294839001+4294791085+4294891096+4294774635+4294890201+115&autoview=sku

And a cometic .040" head gasket:
http://www.cometic.com/da_viewimage.aspx?da=315

If I'm doing my math right, that should put me PERFECTLY on 10.5/1 compression.

This, with the performer RPM intake, a set of the tti headers mentioned above, roller rockers, and a good cam (still trying to figure that one out )

[firefighter3931]

You want a closed chamber head (84cc) with a flattop piston....this is the BEST combination for pump gas.

84cc edelbrock heads
2355 speedpro 6-pack pistons or something similar from Ross or Diamond (your choice)
17/8in TTI headers
Comp xs282s solid lifter cam
Crane ductile Iron rocker arms....cheap and bullet proof. If you want to go Roller it's Harland Sharp at 3 times the price. You don't need a roller rocker with a flat tappet cam and it won't make any more power anyway. 

This combination will put you in the 520hp range and be quite streetable. Idles at 850 rpm in gear. Here are the dyno numbers from Vegas Mike who is running this exact combo which i helped spec out.


Ron

[defiance]

Those are nice numbers!  I'm convinced

One question, though - on the pistons - Summit shows those to be 9.37 compression on 88cc heads.  I did the math backwards and came up with summit figuring based on a .059 gasket distance and 7cc added chamber volume from the pistons.  Based on that, I recalculated with 84cc heads and .040 gaskets (thickness of the Cometics), and it's still just barely 10/1 calculated (which would be somewhere in the 9's effectively since this is an aluminum) - is that good enough?  Some of the earlier discussion indicated I should shoot for 10.5.

If that's a good ratio (and if I'm doing all my math right), great!

Oh, actually ... I saw some notes that Cometic gaskets were available in different sizes; is it possible that could go down as far as .020?  That would  put it 10.5 on the dot!

I'm starting to get pretty excited about this engine 



Actually, you know, I'm basing all this on the assumption that my block hasn't been decked before, which may or may not be true...  That would change everything...

Is there a good way to check for previous block decking?

[4402tuff4u]

I'm not a mechanic, but just from common sense, why would'nt you remove the engine and boil it out and hone the cylinder walls and make it right? You are putting all this good money on the engine but falling short on the prep!! What is so hard in removing the engine?

[defiance]

Yeah, that's in the plans - I was hoping to get by without removing the block, but once I started considering pistons, removing all that became pretty necessary, so it only makes sense to take the relatively simple prep steps you mentioned

[squeakfinder]

Is there a good way to check for previous block decking?




Bump...

I was just looking for an answer to that last question about previous block decking.

[Challenger340]

Is there a good way to check for previous block decking?




Bump...

I was just looking for an answer to that last question about previous block decking.

"Visually"  ?       None that I know of.  Measurement of the Intake valley pan rails has proven "ballpark" only, due to factory casting variances. BEST WAY is still to "mock-up" with a known Comp. Distance Piston, Rod & Crank, if you're a home guy.

I use a Block True fixture on my Bockmaster mill, when I'm ready to deck the block, a "luxury". Corrects 90 degrees, as well as parallel to the mains.

Side Note;
DO NOT use cometic gaskets, unless you provide the CORRECT rms finish to both the heads and block surfaces, check with your machinist. Either CBN cutter(high rpm), or VERY slow traverse speeds for carbides.

For "street" use of a Roller lifter on a Roller Cam, try for spring pressures at/below 170 seat pressure, otherwise, not "if" but rather "when" you've got an Oilpan full of broken lifter trunions. 
"Street Roller" type Cam Profiles ONLY !  And, they really DON'T make much more power, than a properly spec'd, and installed Solid Lifter Cam on properly prepped EDDY's.

EDDY'S provide excellent port & seat velocity for the street. The "bigger" flow numbers that they CAN produce, IS NOT their greatest "asset". The "area", under the "useable curve", or flow @ ALL lifts for the Cam being used is their strength, and the "quality" of the Air/Fuel charge maintained for combustion.
While ROLLER Cams will make more power, THEY DO, all I'm saying is I can't justify the extra $ $ involved, when compared to a Flat tappet Solid Cam using the EDDY's.

Personally, for a "street deal", On the EDDY's, I like the Cam duration, "time spent", at all lifts from .250" - .550" lift.

Just my 2 cents, MY OPINION ONLY, no flamers wanted.
Apologies if I offended anyone.

Bob out.

[defiance]

Heheh - back from the dead

Yeah, since this thread's heyday, the plans have changed quite a bit.  Body work went WAY more expensive than I thought, so the timeframe changed a lot (I still haven't really started on the engine), but current plans are a 440source stroker, Modern Cylinder Heads CNC'd eddys, and a solid tappet cam.  I came to the same conclusions about rollers - Nice idea, but you end up paying for more expensive springs, lifters, rockers, etc; by the time it's all said and done you end up paying over $1k more - then anything that ever breaks is just that much more expensive to replace...
Still, the way my current plans are layed out, I've still got another month or so in the body shop, (I'm still shocked every time I look at the pictures of all the rust that was hiding underneath the paint  ), then probably 3-4 months working on suspension, and I'll finally *start* on the engine

[squeakfinder]

After making that last post I was taking a closer look at my 440 block. And I found a pentastar symbol and some numbers stamped very faintly on the deck on each side in between the center cylinders. I'm assuming that if this block had ever been decked all that would have been shaved off.