My Latest Disaster With Our Friendly 5 Star Dodge Deaker

[Chris G.]

Not sure if any of you remember a couple years ago when I had my "pulling to the right" alignment problem at the dealer I bought my truck from. Anyway, it was a nightmare dealing with that, but got through it OK I guess.

Fast forward to June '06. My truck was hit hard (there was a thread on it). I bring it to the dealer to get repaired, which went rather well. At the same time I had the front brakes done. I was getting a pulsating pedal which meant I needed rotors or rotors cut. I was told by a bunch of people that most factory rotors are junk and shouldn't be cut. The dealer service guy tells me I don't need new rotors and they can be cut...great. The truck only has 20K miles on it BTW. So they fix the brakes and on I go. It's now July.

Are you still with me? Great! 

So last week I start getting a knocking noise from the left front. It's only when I apply the brakes. It's very loud and it is not a pulsation. Take the truck in today and they call me telling me I need new rotors. WTF? New rotors only a month after they tell me I just need rotors cut. I ask him if they will defer the cost of what they charged me a month ago to cut them...nope, not a chance. I also never heard of needing new rotors when you get a loud knock. Does that sound right to you guys?

I need help before I drive through the showroom floor like that maniac in Florida (or wherever). Any opinions or advice on what to do?

My plan is to get it out of there and take it to another guy I know. Have him diagnose the problem and if it's not the rotors, Chrysler is getting a call. If it is the rotors, I feel they are still in the wrong for not doing the repair in the first place. They are wrong either way (imo), and the 2 weeks I'm gonna lose using the truck is now my problem.

Thanks for any opinions and help. 

[Troy]

That sucks. Don't know much about a knocking noise coming from the brakes but if they are bad (again) already then they should definitely be at fault. Did they tell you exactly why they feel it's the brakes and would it have anything to do with the rotors being thin from being turned? Go in to the service department and make them show you exactly why they feel that way and which parts they are going to replace to fix the problem. If they are just replacing parts without knowing why then I'd bail any way. I'd hate to see you back in there a month from now with the same problem if it's really a suspension component. Do you have ABS on that thing?

Troy

[Chris G.]

I hear 'ya Troy. I'm patient with these guys, but I could lose it at any moment, and that's not what I want. I get the feeling when walking into the place, that they could care less either way about making the customer happy. They have that typical Jersey attitude about things.

The guy who called me earlier wasn't there when I showed up after work. I spoke to another guy who gave me the old shoulder shrug and said the mechanic said it needed new rotors. Tomorrow when I call and speak to the main guy, I will ask him those questions. I will also ask for his last name and his supervisors last name in case I need to call Chrysler. That usually puts a scare into a 5 star dealer. Last time I called Chrysler, they went above and beyond when helping me. I was pleasantly surprised by the actions. I won't hesitate to call them again.

[firefighter3931]

What exactly is wrong with the resurfaced rotors according to the dealership ? I'm assuming that they're telling you that they are now warped. The knocking sound could very well be a badly warped rotor....or something else related to the suspension as Troy suggested. Fwiw, i've heard that the factory Rotors are notorious for warpage and low service life. If the rotors are indeed bad it would be worth looking into the aftermarket for something better to replace them with.

A coworker has had 2 sets of rotors on his 04 Ram in less than 50k miles which suggests that this is not an isolated issue.   I remeber reading on one of the truck websites awhile back about an upgrade but don't remember the site or the product manufacturer. I'll see if i can find it and report back.


Ron

[Chris G.]

What exactly is wrong with the resurfaced rotors according to the dealership ? I'm assuming that they're telling you that they are now warped.

Ron, I think they are under the impression that what I described was pulsating and not a knocking. I will need to correct them tomorrow when I call. It only happens when coming to a stop. I have never heard of warped rotors creating that type of problem. I'm not saying it's not possible, but it would be new to me. You can still hear it at under 5mph...and you can hear it from across the street it's so loud.

I figure if I take it to an outside guy, I will get a much more honest answer at this point.

[firefighter3931]

Chris, i understand what you're saying. I was just in a car awhile back that was doing the same thing....thought the front end was falling out of the car ! It turned out to be a severely warped rotor that had just been installed on the vehicle the week before. 

This was definately not a pulsation....more of a severe knock/vibration that was brake speed related. The harder it braked, the worse it was. It didn't feel like a suspension issue when i drove it.

Here's the link to the truck website and a thread on rotors for 3rd gen Ram pickups. The Bendix stuff seems to be popular with this group.


http://dodgetruckworld.tenmagazines.com/forums/topic.ten-id-134782-s-replacing_rotors



Ron

[Chris G.]

Thanks Ron.  I'll definitely check it out.

[253862656971]

Cripes!  20k on the brakes and they're going out?!  My dad has a pickup with 180K on it with all the original brake pads, rotors, drums, and shoes minus one wheel (rear end seal went out).  I've seen people who have run their rotors down into the cooling fins and that makes a similar knocking noise when the brakes are applied.  This shouldn't be your problem though if the rotors were just turned.  

[dodge freak]

I only go to the dealer for work if its under warranty or its something that is best done by the dealer only, like a computer update. For brakes I do them myself or I would go to a Mr Muffler or some place like that. Dealers are a rip off, people think they are better but its not true. BTW I always replace rotors unless they are some high price aftermarket ones like from NAPA .

Brake rotors are another thing that are cheaper now than 5 years ago, thanks to China.

[Chris G.]

Dodge freak, I hear 'ya. I only went with them because the truck was there getting fixed and time was of the essence.

I'll know better next time around. 

[OttawaCharger]

Dodge definitely seems to have a problem with under-engineering their brakes.  I have went through 4 sets of rotors in 80,000 km.  I've tried Dodge replaces, stainless steel slotted roters and heavy duty bendix all with the same results.  I admit I drive it a bit hard at times but sheesh.  I've also had the upper ball joints replaced under an unwritten warranty which could only be done with a call to Chrysler Canada.  It covers all 2wd Dakotas 1999 to 2003 as far as I know. 
Ball joints clunk going in and out of parking lots.  It could be that.  A loud clunk every now and then could be worn bearings allowing the wheel to twist quickly on the shaft up against the brake.  Mine has had that as well.   

[bluesfool]

Have you actually crawled under there and taken a look at the underneath? It might not even have anything to do with the brake system, especially considering that they just put the front end together last month. Could be that something else came loose and is banging against the frame or something when you apply the brakes. I had a rear shock bolt shear off on my caravan last year and the shock would bang against the leaf springs pretty loud whenever I would go over a bump. Check the bolts holding the calipers on too...if they weren't tightened down then the caliper could be just "hanging on". Don't forget to check each lug nut too.

[Chris G.]

Have you actually crawled under there and taken a look at the underneath? It might not even have anything to do with the brake system, especially considering that they just put the front end together last month. Could be that something else came loose and is banging against the frame or something when you apply the brakes. I had a rear shock bolt shear off on my caravan last year and the shock would bang against the leaf springs pretty loud whenever I would go over a bump. Check the bolts holding the calipers on too...if they weren't tightened down then the caliper could be just "hanging on". Don't forget to check each lug nut too.

I guess I will find out for sure once I pull the truck out of there today. If they didn't touch anything, the noise should still be there. I don't really have space to do any work on the truck at home. Heck, I have to drive my car to my friends house just to take the tires off. It really sucks is what I mean. 

If it is truly a warped rotor, then it's gonna be very noticeable once I see it with the tire off. I was thinking it could be a loose caliper bolt as well. I'm gonna bring it to a guy I use and not even mention it was in an accident and let him find what's wrong. I'm anxious to see what he finds. I know money wise I have to eat it, but it's a lesson well learned about dealers.

[resq302]

Chris,

If you just had them cut the rotors not that long ago, they should have noted the mileage on the invoice.  With that being said, bring that invoice back to them and show them how many miles are on the vehicle since they did the machining of the rotors and ask why it took the rotors to go bad in so little time when they said all the rotors needed was to be machined.  I bet they never machined the rotors and the rotors just warped more.  I know what you are going through with your Ram, remember the problems with mine?

[6pkrunner]

Seems like all the original factory rotors are a hit and miss issue. I've had GM products and the rotors sign off in 20-25K kms. Junk. And really a severely warped rotor  turned will only come back real quick. To knock is a really severely warped rotor ( I had one and it is a knock and teeth rattler).
Take Ron's advice and go aftermarket Bendix

Funny, but when Bendix had the contracts with Mopar in the 60s they turned out cheap calipers.

The factory stuff is so notoriously thin now that they can only be turned once in most cases, if the rotor has much of a warp in it.

[RT DAVE]

I got 19k on my neon and the brakes pulse already.    The intrepid has 60k and the original pads & rotors are still good.      Funny thing is that I often engine brake with the neon, so I would think the brakes would be better in that.   Yeah, i know, I'm wearing the clutch out, I know...   

[Todd Wilson]

Dodge definitely seems to have a problem with under-engineering their brakes.  I have went through 4 sets of rotors in 80,000 km.  I've tried Dodge replaces, stainless steel slotted roters and heavy duty bendix all with the same results.  I admit I drive it a bit hard at times but sheesh.  I've also had the upper ball joints replaced under an unwritten warranty which could only be done with a call to Chrysler Canada.  It covers all 2wd Dakotas 1999 to 2003 as far as I know. 
Ball joints clunk going in and out of parking lots.  It could be that.  A loud clunk every now and then could be worn bearings allowing the wheel to twist quickly on the shaft up against the brake.  Mine has had that as well.   

Doesnt sound to be dodge related in your case.  You have been thru 4 sets of rotors using other brands.


Rotors on all vehicles in the last 8-10 years seem to be made of a lesser steel then the old school units. There is a problem somewhere.

Proven facts that cause warped rotors   are  not using a tork wrench to put a wheel back on.  Old days you put the wheel back on and tightened with the lug wrench and away you go.   Proper tork of the lug nutz is important today. Also the pads used is a big factor in how rotors wear and warp.

Driving style also creates this problem.


My own thoughts to go along with this is I wonder if we arent seeing these problems due to a combination of things along with ABS brakes causing a pulse application of the pad where the pad touchs and relaxes, touchs and relaxes instead of the old skool push down on the rotor and keep holding steady until stopped.

Add all this with a flimsie  rotor and they are sure to warp.


If some one would engineer and build a real rotor again like we had 20 years ago I bet it wouldnt happen. It would be strong enough to stand up to the other issues that could cause a new flimsie rotor to warp.  But that will never happen because we got to have everything made in another country for pennys on the dollar instead of paying  a decent wage for a real machinist to do a good quality job.


The dealerships for the most part have their head in their ass all the time. Theres a few mechanics there that know whats going on but your problem sounds like a typical dealership problem.


Todd

[70charginglizard]

My advise....
Never go to the dodge dealer for anything brake related!
I have another friend of mine who took his ram into the dealer for brake problems recently and they screwed him left and right.
Just a little friendly advise. Pull it outta there quick and go somewhere else.
70charginglizard

[resq302]

I had a good friend that used to work for Kar Parts (now Advanced Auto Parts) and he said that the rotors anymore that come on cars are really cheap metal.   Even the replacements are made of cheap metal unless you get a good brand like Raybestos, Bendix, Wagner, etc which seem to be made of better quality steel.  I had an old beater car (88 Pontiac 6000 4 dr) that I used to go to and from college in.  It needed brakes so I figured I would go with the cheaper rotors as the engine had over 160k miles on it and you needed a tetnus shot just from looking at it (yes it had that much rust).  After 3000 miles, the new rotors warped!  I tossed them and put on a pair of Wagners and didn't have to touch them for another 35,000 miles.  I guess it comes down to the old saying... you get what you pay for.  Car manufacturers today build stuff as cheaply as possible to make them last just past the warranty date it seems and then after 36,000 miles, you are Shi@ of out luck.

Keep us posted Chris as to how your vehicle comes out.

[topduarte]

i just did the brakes on my 04 ram with 30k miles.Not hard to do and only about $45 for the pads!!

When I went in to get a tire replaced under warranty, they gave me a huge list of 30k items that needed to be done.  One thing I remember is $349 for a tuneup!!

I told them I can do it myself!!!

[firefighter3931]

Chris, my buddy Blown68 was just over with his Summit Racing shipment and inside was a new catalog for generic (non race) parts and guess what.....they now carry Bendix    Time to make the call for some new rotors and pads  

Oh, and i just got off the phone with my local dealer ; i've been waiting since March for a "warranty" catalytic conveter that was supposed to be in within a few weeks. Hadn't heard from them and the truck sounds like a coffee can full of rocks everytime it starts up....quite annoying. Anyway i called and sure enough they forgot about me so i pushed the issue and miraculously they found me a Cat. 

So it's going in this week and i ask about them installing my new (Summit racing) catback exhaust....2 pipes,a muffler and 2 clamps....about 5 minutes work max. The labor is 1.5 hrs at $92.00/hr + tax    You're kidding, right...i tell the service adviser ! Nope, that's what the book says and that's what we have to charge. I told the yo-yo at the other end that his brilliant mechanic would spend more time adapting the crusty old extension pipe to the new cat than he would just cutting the old stuff off and installing the new system. They didn't seem to care.....guess i'll be doing my own exhaust install in the driveway and pocket the $175.00  

Unfrickenbelievable  



Ron

[dodge freak]

I am surprise they would even do it for $175 Some places- like dealerships- won't install parts unless they get the parts themself. That must be one of the better dealers, ha ha.

[firefighter3931]

I am surprise they would even do it for $175 Some places- like dealerships- won't install parts unless they get the parts themself. That must be one of the better dealers, ha ha.

They don't call them stealerships for nuthin 


Ron

[andy74]

Chris, mopar parts should carry a 12 month,12000 warranty,if they installed new pads and the rotors are fragged,make sure you point that out.Also,i can get you a contact number for your regional parts and service rep-pm me for more info,Andy

[Todd Wilson]

Hadn't heard from them and the truck sounds like a coffee can full of rocks everytime it starts up....

Isnt that what a 426 Hemi sounds like?       



Todd

[69_500]

I guess I am not the only one who is having issues with a 5 star Chrysler dealership.

I hope you get your situation dealt with too Chris.

[89MOPAR]

 Hmmmn. Knock on wood, no problems on my 03 Ram with 52,000 miles

I don't see how it can be the ABS, since the ABS kicks in with serious pedal pressure. Most people have never felt the ABS "pulse" in their car.

Firefighter 3931-   5 minutes ?   .  C'mon now, you're much more mecahnically savvy than that.
If you really thought it was only 5 minutes, why would you ask a dealership to do it instead just rolling under the truck/car and doing it youself...?

[Arigmaster]

You might want to try contacting AUTOCAP

http://www.nfada.com/autocap.html

I ended up contacting them a few years back. My Grand National was stolen and when it was recovered, the motor and front suspension was ruined. (Joy riders) I brought the car to a Buick dealership where the supposedly went through and completely overhauled the engine and front end. Four weeks later there was consistant problems with leaks, knocks, and the car had really horrible power issues. I gave the dealership several opportunities to resolve the issues and after six trips back where the car was left for them to trouble shoot they told me the motor was as good as it would get. Said there was nothing wrong with it. I appealed to the Service Manager and General Manager but it was to no avail. So, I brought all my correspondence to a case worker at AUTOCAP.

Within a month after they began their investigation into the issue, I was sent to a different Dealership where they had a brand new complete crate motor waiting for my car. The other dealership had sent reimbursement for my rental cars and provided me with one of their loaners until my car was completed. Once the car was done, I agreed to sign a non-disclosure agreement for the first dealership since they made good on all arrangements negotiated through AUTOCAP and reimbursed me and my insurance company for the rental. I still lost time with all the running around but in the long run, I got what I wanted.

[firefighter3931]

Firefighter 3931-   5 minutes ?   .  C'mon now, you're much more mecahnically savvy than that.
If you really thought it was only 5 minutes, why would you ask a dealership to do it instead just rolling under the truck/car and doing it youself...?

Ok, 15 minutes 

The repair is done....new cat is on with the old exhaust. The service adviser said that the mechanic asked if the customer (me) was aware of the condition of the exhaust system. Yep. The mechanic ended up spending 45minutes cuting and flaring/adapting the old pipe to the new Cat. Mechanic's comment ; It would be a whole lot easier and less time consuming to install new stuff. 

I was trying to save the tech some aggrivation but the service dept didn't want any part of that....well i guess they did, but for 1.5hrs at $92.00 per hour plus 14% taxes and shop supplies yadda, yadda. I guess my point is they could have had the truck in and out MUCH faster and had the tech working on the next vehicle instead of screwing around with mine.  The repair was being covered by Chrysler as a warranty issue so either way they were getting paid for the time. They just spent more time on it then they really had too, created more hassles for their employee and ultimately lost productivity. 


Ron

[6pkrunner]

They didn't seem to care.....

[rant on]
-and they have so many customers that they do not care about any individual. You don't like them or their service, there are hundreds in line behind you who will eagerly get taken to the cleaners and thank them at the end of it. The entire society has become beaten down by ripoffs and crappy service and products that it is now the industry standard to rip you for huge bucks and then walk away from you.

[/rant off]

[resq302]

They didn't seem to care.....

[rant on]
-and they have so many customers that they do not care about any individual. You don't like them or their service, there are hundreds in line behind you who will eagerly get taken to the cleaners and thank them at the end of it. The entire society has become beaten down by ripoffs and crappy service and products that it is now the industry standard to rip you for huge bucks and then walk away from you.

[/rant off]

AMEN to that!  I went through the same thing when I was fighting about my 05 Hemi Ram Quad cab.  Chris G knows the entire story about how dealerships and the big wigs at corporate could care less about the little guy.  Only when I decided to bring in a lawyer, is when I had some results.  And even that took a long time.

[twilt]

The only time i have heard front disc brakes make a knocking noise due to a  rotor issue  is when a jack leg improperly resurfaced the rotors. It can happen if the rotors are cut too fast. I`ve seen it happen in the shop i work in a couple times. The jack legs  get in a hurry and don`t bother with a final slow cut. 

[resq302]

Chris,

Any progress with your truck?  We haven't heard anymore.   Hopefully you made out ok.  Keep us posted.

[4402tuff4u]

Hope he did'nt snap and went postal!  Yesterday I saw a few National guard helicopters heading in a hurry towards NJ !

kidding aside I hope you get it resolved. The worst is having a dealer trying to make you pay for his troubleshooting/testing and "change parts" until the problem is solved because of lack of knowledge or experience. Good luck bud.

[resq302]

Chris G,

Any word???  How did you make out with the dealership??

[Chris G.]

Brian, sorry for the delay. The truck is home and I guess OK. Once they heard I just wanted to pick it up, the knocking dissapeared when I went and got it. I'm done with the dealer at this point. If something else happens, I call Chrysler and they can yell at them.

I hate that they are the way they are, because they are a big dealer with a bunch of nice cars on the lot which may be of interest to me down the road. I guess Crig's could get the same car I would want though.

Mike, the choppers weren't for me, but it's nice to know they can be deployed in case I do a Dukes into the showroom window. 

[resq302]

Chris,

got some news for ya.  Corigliano's is probably going to be sold if not been done so already.  Rumor has it that the deal is all done with Johnson Dodge from Budd Lake being the new owners but they will leave the Corigliano name for a couple years.  All of the sales people with the exception of one has either been fired or quit and moved on as they saw the writing on the wall.  The service and parts department in the center of Boonton is now gone and will be sold to Nostalgia Motors ( a high price restoration company) and show room will now be doing all the service for all the cars and trucks they sell instead of it just being the truck division only.

I guess a lot of people are fed up with them as they have been going other places as well.  Perfect example of how one guy can run a personal business but not a large scale business.

[dodge freak]

How very true. One of my everyday car need tires and had a hole in the muffler a 1992 olds  cutlass. Took the car 20 miles to a GoodYear store which has treated me good for years. They said the whole exhaust was shot and it cost $780 ! I said no way and they cut the price a $100 . Said just give me the tires I do it later, they kept tell me just put it on my credit card which I got last year for some mail in rebate. Said no way and left after the tires were on. The next week I went to Mr Muffler and had a new exhaust from the cat back for $160 ! Those asshole at GoodYear knew I had a GoodYear credit card and thought I would just charge it to it. I only got their credit card cause of the  $50 rebate and now a year later they go trying to rip me off