can someone PLEASE explain the gas price logic to me, without bashing bush/OPEC

[Brock Samson]

Hey Troy, how 'bout some research on good lookin Broads?. 

[Brock Samson]

...an if your tired of typing,. remember one pic is worth a thousand words...
...from this bunch particularly..   

[dodge freak]

In 2000 gas by my house in Michigan was $1.40 now its over $3 thats a 110% increase. How do we know how much the oil compays are making per gallon ? You think they would be honest with us ? Everybody forgot Eron and World Com. these company's play with the book's   I did not say they were making 75 cents a gallon I just guess, nobody really knows. I seen that BP made 6 billion last quarter-a quarter is 3 months. Thats was a record profit for them and many other oil company's.

[dodge freak]

I just found a gas receipt from 4/2005 and I paid $2.16 a gallon. Now gas is over $3 at the same station , thats a 40% increase in 16 months, what the heck else has gone up that fast. My paycheck sure heck hasn't.

Remember these oil company's own the oil in the ground, so when oil goes to $75 a barrel thats how much the oil company's get for it, not how much they pay for it. They have these big shot tax lawyer's doing the book keeping so it show's they make a few cent's a gallon but why are all their profit's each quarter keep breaking record's ? Somebody is getting very rich but its not any of us at least its sure isn't me thats for sure.

[Troy]

What a waste of time...

No Strat, as I said before, if you can't find porn on the internet...

Troy

[Lowprofile]

I feel your pain, Bro. 




BTW, Thanks, as always , for all the good info.

[dodge freak]

Nobody is wasting their time , everybody does have some good points. I am not disagreeing with everything people have said. Some things are very true.

One thing is clear -gas has double or gone up 100 % since 2000, WHY thats open for debate but it has gone up. Since we are posting links heres one :
www.democrats.reform.house.gov/Documents/20060505111004-39714.pdf

[Sledge57]

I can explain it. Did you quit buying gas because the price went up?
No? There ya go. Supply and demand............................................

[Brock Samson]

[Troy]

One thing is clear -gas has double or gone up 100 % since 2000, WHY thats open for debate but it has gone up. Since we are posting links heres one :

You're reading propaganda from the Democrats. Try the Department of Energy (and also try something where you can read the numbers instead of the title). The prices have almost doubled - but not quite. All the reports I see put us about 25-30 cents lower than a double of August 2000 prices. Remember to compare month-to-month in your prices as gasoline tends to go up in the summer and heating oil in the winter. Also realize that this is a worldwide problem and not just here in the US where we've been getting sweet deals on gasoline for a very long time.

Why people insist on comparing completely different scenarios is beyond me. We have more cars, more drivers, more construction from that little housing boom, and a bigger economy but production (especially refining capacity) has hardly improved at all. Why would anyone expect the price to be the same? Even if the oil companies gave it away at $0.00 profit you'd still be paying at least $2.50 per gallon.

Back to the original topic... I have a perfect example of this whole free market idea. I love Mountain Dew. I drink it way too much. Now, over the last couple of years it's been getting more expensive. However, I can find it on sale pretty regularly - especially around the holidays. So, why - when the demand is higher - can I get the stuff at a 60% discount? Also, why can I get a 20 oz bottle at work for $1.00 but it's $1.29-$1.50 at a convenience store?

Troy

[1970440RT]

     

In 2000 gas by my house in Michigan was $1.40 now its over $3 thats a 110% increase. How do we know how much the oil compays are making per gallon ? You think they would be honest with us ? Everybody forgot Eron and World Com. these company's play with the book's  I did not say they were making 75 cents a gallon I just guess, nobody really knows. I seen that BP made 6 billion last quarter-a quarter is 3 months. Thats was a record profit for them and many other oil company's.

     Publicly traded corporations are just that, PUBLIC.  Their financial statements are available.  They do not hide or expose any more information than the law allows.  Some companies do try ( Enron ) but we can see the results.  BP's responsibility is to their shareholders.  They try to make as much profit as possible, which is usually between 5 and 10 percent.  If that was not their goal, how long do you think they would be in business?   

     I hate to burst anyone's bubble but their is no secret tycoon that controls all the oil pricing, raking in profits to keep all to himself, in cahoots with any government to keep the price up... etc

     I am not happy about paying $3.00 a gallon for gas but I do understand the mechanics behind the pricing. 

Nobody is wasting their time , everybody does have some good points. I am not disagreeing with everything people have said. Some things are very true.

One thing is clear -gas has double or gone up 100 % since 2000, WHY thats open for debate but it has gone up. Since we are posting links heres one :
www.democrats.reform.house.gov/Documents/20060505111004-39714.pdf

     Actually, it is not open for debate.  Troy just did an excellent job of explaining why prices went up and what causes the prices to fluctuate.

Is there any other product out there that the handlers of which raise and lower the prices based on emotional responses? Does the price of milk and cheese go up due to fears that the alfalfa supply might not quite be adequate six months from now?

A serious answer is gold and another answer is muscle cars. There is no logical reason for the price escalations. It is supply and demand based on the emotional reasoning "I gotta have one too". Look at the price spike in Chargers simply because of the DOH movie.

Other energy commodities like natural gas and electricity fluctuate based on future production and storage but since you don't pay for them on a daily basis like you do gasoline and they are somewhat weather related you probably don't notice the impact as much. Natural gas prices have been going up for various reasons since 2001.

     Great point, oil prices are a commodity and based on a futures market.  Oversimplified: If there is a flare up in the middle east, suppliers are worried about future supply shortages and raise the price on current shipments to cover the future expected costs.  Any product priced in this way is subject to the same "whim" escalations in price.

     Gas stations must raise their price immediately if prices rise to cover the cost of their next tanker coming in, even though the fuel in the tanks was purchased at the old price.  If the gas stations kept their prices at the old lower pricing, they would not be able to afford the next shipment of fuel.

    Lizzard, incomes do adjust but at a tremendously slower rate than gas prices.  That gives me an idea, I can negotiate my next raise for my salary to be based on a futures market...    

[dodge freak]

Well you go the the feds site's which side on they on? I not going to nick pick about a few cents, the past few years gas has went way up after being fairly steady for 15 years. Why has it gone up so fast-the war ? suppy ? greed ? thats  IS  open for debate and I am not going to start guessing, you guys want too go ahead.

I think what everybody like to know is how come gas goes up some days 15-20 cents? Nothing else in this world has been going up as fast as gasoline, in % terms . its only logical to think that we are getting rip off, the whole world is expect the country's that have lots of oil and own it too, like some Arab states.

Pop goes on sale and you don't NEED it, gas is never on sale and most everybody needs it to live. Wheres its going to stop , $4 , $5 it always has stop before and after a few years went back down, why not this time, or hopefully it will someday, Maybe this is the peak but thats what I thought before.

I think one or two posters said it the best-the only logic to gas prices is greed, the oil companys know this can't go on forever so they are trying to make tons of profits well they still can and doing a very good job BTW.

Now if we only owned our own oil feild

[bull]

I can explain it. Did you quit buying gas because the price went up?
No? There ya go. Supply and demand............................................

STOP buying gas? How exactly do you do that without becoming a bum, hermit or mountain man? Maybe I'll just stop working altogether and live off you guys.

[1970440RT]

Well you go the the feds site's which side on they on? I not going to nick pick about a few cents, the past few years gas has went way up after being fairly steady for 15 years. Why has it gone up so fast-the war ? suppy ? greed ? thats IS open for debate and I am not going to start guessing, you guys want too go ahead.

I think what everybody like to know is how come gas goes up some days 15-20 cents? Nothing else in this world has been going up as fast as gasoline, in % terms . its only logical to think that we are getting rip off, the whole world is expect the country's that have lots of oil and own it too, like some Arab states.

Pop goes on sale and you don't NEED it, gas is never on sale and most everybody needs it to live. Wheres its going to stop , $4 , $5 it always has stop before and after a few years went back down, why not this time, or hopefully it will someday, Maybe this is the peak but thats what I thought before.

I think one or two posters said it the best-the only logic to gas prices is greed, the oil companys know this can't go on forever so they are trying to make tons of profits well they still can and doing a very good job BTW.

Now if we only owned our own oil feild

    oh my...

1. What "sides" are you talking about?  You talk as though it is us against the govt against the oil companies.  WE are the govt.  WE are the oil companies.  The few cents we are nitpicking about adds up to billions.  I am not guessing.  Please read the previous posts.

2. It is not " logical" to think we are getting ripped off, it is a knee jerk reaction.  The fed. government convened a bi-partisan commitee about six months ago amongst much fanfare and headlines about getting to the bottom of all the "windfall" profits and price gouging.  The commitee has concluded their investigation.  Anybody see any headlines about the results?  Me either.  Their conclusion was that the profits were in line and only isolated incidents of gouging occurred in New Orleans.

3.  I get gas on sale here all the time.  Every time I spend money in Giant Eagle, I get money off gas at Getgo.  Whose fault is it that people are dependent on gasoline?  If I was really concerned with gas prices, I would sell my cars and move close to where I work so I can walk.  I CHOOSE to live where I am.  I CHOOSE to drive big block muscle cars, a Ram and a Jeep.  America is grand, I can choose to do many things that I want.  There are many countries you can't.

4.  It is the corporation's job to make the shareholders money. ( I already posted this ) Please do not mistake greed for capitalism.  

5.  The great thing about America is that you CAN buy your own oilfield.   

[bull]

Wondering how many people actually bother to research anything before pulling "facts" out of their rear... 

First off, I don't think this is necessary.

Bull & partly RD: the American Dollar fluctuates thousands of times per day almost solely based on emotion/fear/uncertainty. The supply of oil from the Prudhoe fields has been decreasing for years. It isn't how much is in the ground but how much they can refine. Oil reserves are in good shape - even a little high right now. I know we've covered this before but where has it been proven that alcohol is a viable fuel source (ie. that it can be produced efficiently)?

Second, the potential for using alcohol for fuel is within the realm of reality but I think even you will admit there is no real money being spent on research (in modern times) because the money and political power is behind big oil. It's not about finding alternative fuels it's about jobs and money. Oil companies (and the politicians in their pockets) will not allow alternative fuels because it's not good for business.

[1970440RT]

     Bull, try not to take this the wrong way but I think you have already made up your mind on why gas prices are high.  I don't think we are going to change your mind. 

     The govt has spent a ton of money on fuel cell vehicles and research.  If alchohol was any more viable, the money would've went there.

     The "Big oil with politicians in their pockets" is a trite overgeneralization.  Many organizations and industries have political action committees ( PAC's ) .  Big Soda also has politicians in their pockets,  as well as Big corn.  I could go on but I think you get my point. 

     The main reason alternative fuels have not come into the mainstream is because of the efficiency of the modern gasoline internal combustion engine.  If you sit back and think about the strides that have been made in this technology, it is amazing.  Gasoline did not become our main fuel for engines by accident.  It is simply easier and more efficient than the next best thing.

[bull]

I just don't think that disseminating "facts" created by the oil companies and their scientists is any more credible than me disseminating "facts" of a conspiracy theory to quash the research and development of alternative fuels. And I don't think I'm any more biased on the side of those who oppose the oil companies than those who support them are on the opposite side. I can understand why the oil companies (and those who are financially supported by them) don't want this country to become self-sufficient but I cannot for the life of me understand why the average American would go along with that.

My generalization may be trite but you can't deny the truth in it. Gasoline engines are only efficient now because they have had a century's worth of improvements made to them and there's a need to ramp it up now that some of the people who supply it are trying to make nukes. R&D follows the money, no matter how efficient the product. Beta tapes were more efficient than VHS but look which one we got.

Big soda companies and corn farmers may have politicians in their pockets but there are alternatives to corn (carrots, beets, peas, etc.) and soda (water, jiuce, etc.) so that example is obviously flawed. There is next to nothing than you are legally allowed to put in your fuel tank but gas.

[dodge freak]

These E 85 cars are proof that we do not need as much gasoline that we are using everyday.

Gas engines are wasteful , they put out not even 50 % of the energy of gasoline, most goes off as heat, the other is wasted motion of the crank and pistons. Fuel cells are in theory use  90 % of the energy, this is why all the research is being done on fuel cells. Gas engine are cheap and easy to make thats why we have them not cause they are so great, as soon as some comes along like fuel cells the gas motor is finish. When will it happen, most likely not in our live time but it will, maybe some of us will get to see it happen.

[RD]

most recent profits based on income statements:

exxon/mobil - 157,678,000,000 dollars
BP - 57,174,000,000 dollars
conocophillips - 16,200,000,000 dollars

coca-cola - 14,909,000,000 dollars
pepsi-cola - 5,632,000,000 dollars

mcdonalds - 1,775,300,000 dollars
burger king - 745,000,000 dollars
wendy's - 924,919,000 dollars

tyson food's - 149,000,000 dollars
National Corn Grower's Association (http://www.author-works.com/media/media-16403.pdf) - 1,460,448 dollars [total assets]


MONEY IS POWER, and somehow I do not believe that the corn grower's have as much push and pull as the oil companies do.

[dodge freak]

Anybody has the profits those company's made 5 and 10 years ago ?? Like to see whose profits have gone up the most

[Troy]

Uh... E85 is subsidized by the governmet at something like $0.60 per gallon to make the price competitive. Where do you suppose they get the money?

Wondering how many people actually bother to research anything before pulling "facts" out of their rear... 

First off, I don't think this is necessary.

Why not? Read the whole thread and notice how many people reference where they got the information or have a shred of evidence to back up their argument. We go through this so many times and it is so predicatble that I could script the entire conversation beforehand so forgive me for pointing it out. As an educator it grates on my nerves when people are too lazy to check the facts - the very facts that they will argue to the death over just because someone else told them. It also doesn't take a whole lot of effort to verify/refute someone else's position yet even that is obviously too much to expect. I don't care if someone disagrees with me because I may actually have based my opinions on incorrect information at some point. However, I will look it up and modify my thinking based on newer, better information. Is that too much to expect from adults? Again I must point out the difference between fact and opinion. You can believe there is a gasoline conspiracy and I can believe there are aliens reading this site but neither can be proven. The firing order of a 440, however, is irrefutable. See the difference?

As for fuel, 150 years ago no one had even heard of gasoline. Needless to say, they weren't worried about a shortage. Thank goodness for electricity too or we'd all be living in the dark when all the whales were dead. Technology is always moving forward. There will be other sources of energy and, amazingly, BP is one of the companies most involved in alternative fuel research. I can bet that someone will be unhappy with the price the day they come up with something new. I'd also be that the government will find a way to tax it at roughly the same time. I do realize the price of gasoline is high but I can also look around and see the many factor involved. Crying about it isn't going to solve the problem. Blaming someone or some group isn't going to solve the problem. Doing something about it will certainly garner better results than either of those.

I believe I've covered the original topic fairly well. From now on I'll just post completely biased, uncomfirmed drivel.

Troy

[Troy]

Anybody has the profits those company's made 5 and 10 years ago ?? Like to see whose profits have gone up the most

Yes, they are called financial statements and they are freely available. I already did a comparison between different market segments. It's linked previously.

For what it's worth, Walt Disney's profits are up 40% from last quarter. Where's the outcry?

Troy

[1970440RT]

I just don't think that disseminating "facts" created by the oil companies and their scientists is any more credible than me disseminating "facts" of a conspiracy theory to quash the research and development of alternative fuels. And I don't think I'm any more biased on the side of those who oppose the oil companies than those who support them are on the opposite side. I can understand why the oil companies (and those who are financially supported by them) don't want this country to become self-sufficient but I cannot for the life of me understand why the average American would go along with that.

My generalization may be trite but you can't deny the truth in it. Gasoline engines are only efficient now because they have had a century's worth of improvements made to them and there's a need to ramp it up now that some of the people who supply it are trying to make nukes. R&D follows the money, no matter hoe efficient the product. Beta tapes were more efficient than VHS but look which one we got.

Big soda companies and corn farmers may have politicians in their pockets but there are alternatives to corn (carrots, beets, peas, etc.) and soda (water, jiuce, etc.) so that example is obviously flawed. There is next to nothing than you are legally allowed to put in your fuel tank but gas.

     If you think the oil companies are against America becoming self sufficient, how do explain the American govt blocking efforts to drill and refine domestically?  The oil corporations are just that...corporations.  If they can't drill and refine here where do they go?   Painting the oil companies as greedy evil monsters is ignorant.  At the head of these companies I really think you guys imagine a Mr. Burns ( Simpsons ) type character. 

     I am an average American and I support the American way- that is what made this country great and how we will move forward.  A free market will always prosper...just ask the USSR and Cuba

These E 85 cars are proof that we do not need as much gasoline that we are using everyday.

Gas engines are wasteful , they put out not even 50 % of the energy of gasoline, most goes off as heat, the other is wasted motion of the crank and pistons. Fuel cells are in theory use 90 % of the energy, this is why all the research is being done on fuel cells. Gas engine are cheap and easy to make thats why we have them not cause they are so great, as soon as some comes along like fuel cells the gas motor is finish. When will it happen, most likely not in our live time but it will, maybe some of us will get to see it happen.

    I enjoy it when people make my arguement for me:  "Gas engines are cheap and easy to make"  EXACTLY!!!
When an alternative that comes along that is cheaper and easier to make, we will use it.   For now, gasoline is the best.

most recent profits based on income statements:

exxon/mobil - 157,678,000,000 dollars
BP - 57,174,000,000 dollars
conocophillips - 16,200,000,000 dollars

coca-cola - 14,909,000,000 dollars
pepsi-cola - 5,632,000,000 dollars

mcdonalds - 1,775,300,000 dollars
burger king - 745,000,000 dollars
wendy's - 924,919,000 dollars

tyson food's - 149,000,000 dollars
National Corn Grower's Association (http://www.author-works.com/media/media-16403.pdf) - 1,460,448 dollars [total assets]


MONEY IS POWER, and somehow I do not believe that the corn grower's have as much push and pull as the oil companies do.

    Please post profit as a percentage of total revenue.  Without that info, the above numbers are meaningless.  My brother in law's software company made 65% profit last year, he must be gouging the consumer.

[HAZZARDJOHN]

Troy, I must thank you for making the arguement I was about to make! Good show ole man!

There are laws that limit what a store can charge for my milk, why can't they do the same for my gas?

Jim Price controls were tried before and they don't work with gasoline. A matter of fact they were part and parcel to the oil embargo of the early to mid 70's. Just to make it so I show my true colors, I am a Conservative. That being said it, price controls were one of the most misguided knee jerk reactions that Nixon ever did.

Read the article below as it is well written, But id you google Price controls and Oile embargo you will come up with a ton of hits to support why Price controls are not only Wrong but could have a reverse effect.

http://www.buyandhold.com/bh/en/education/history/2002/arab.html

Now in my opion you all who are blaming the Oil companies are being a little hypicritical. They don't set the price of oil the Stock market does. Oil futures are traded Publicaly and they are at the mercy of you and me <----That's right I said it! The same people who are reaping the benefits of their particular sector of the marketplace are the same people that were forced to lay off employees and cut back hours in the mid to late 90's when the pirce of their commodity fell and they were experiancing record losses. This is America and like it or not, it is still a free market system and small businees and big business' are still at the mercy of the consumers. How would you like it if the government stepped in and said you could only sell you widgets here for $1.00 and you can get $5.00 over seas? You will pack up your marbles and go home! and the consumer will be left standing with cash in one hand and no marbles in the other.

A little thing to keep in mind to, we have been through this before. Before the oil embargo we were driving gas hogs and boats as well as muscle cars. The 1973 killed that and the marketplace struggled to keep up. This is where the Crappy eighties cars came from, a drastic and violent marketplace correction. Now we have spent the past 20 years forgetting our past and building peppier more fun, gas guzzling monsters. And guess what happened? The marketplace spanked us. Now I am willing to bet that gas prices won't go down, but rather the wages creep up to meet the current spike, and we will forget and we will demand Gas guzzlers again, and we will be spanked again. With no recourse other than to sit here an B**** about it and demand that our government take care of us! It is not the answer folks! The government is not our parent, it is us. We control our destiny.

~HJ

[HAZZARDJOHN]

Oh and BTW we haven't even came close to experianceing the pain of the Oil embargo.

According to that article I posted above gas shot up to $1.20 a gallon and adjusted for inflation that equals=

"What cost $1.20 in 1974 would cost $4.99 in 2005."


http://www.westegg.com/inflation/infl.cgi