Charger1970's world famous headlight relay upgrade

[myk]

Where does the voltage regulator fit into this schematic?
An un-regulated alt can put out 15+ volts, what does this do to the life of a 12V bulb??

Also, doesn't that high of a un-regulated voltage going to the battery cause problems?

Thanks

Are you talking about the charging system?  I, and I'm pretty sure 2Gunz and the rest, are running voltage regulators-an electronic one from a '70 and up Mopar charging system of course.  Naturally, you should never run without a 'VR.  As for the accessories, the point of these high 'amp upgrades and relay installations isn't to give them 14 or 15 volts, but to give them a rock solid, constant 12 volts, even if the lights, brake, AC, radio, or whatever is running even during idling, which is what automotive electrical systems need to be happy and which is something the stock system couldn't do fresh from the factory...

[2Gunz]

The voltage regulator is not part of this circuit.

And as MYK stated I do have one, its a 70 and up electronic one.

The mopar electronic system IMHO was junk when new and just passable as able to do the job.

Add in 40 years of wear and tear and a few modern things such as electric fans or sound system and its in way over its head.


My goal isnt high voltage readings, just a car that charges at idle and able to handle some modern stuff in it.

[jlatessa]

I understand, but I see so many of these schematics showing a direct wire from alt. output terminal to a terminal that goes directly to the batt. positive.

I know later alts. were internally regulated but none of these diagrams address that distinction.

What am I missing?

Thanks, Joe Latessa

[jlatessa]

I have done a relay upgrade in another car, but ran the high-current carrying wire from batt. positive to relay.

This was in an 80's car for brighter headlights and was very effective.

Thanks
Joe

[b5blue]

By feeding anything off the battery no matter what you charge it with, you basically trick the car into thinking your battery is discharged. The battery is there to start the engine, not run components. The charging system is not designed to charge a dead battery, just top off the amp drain from starting. I spent a lot of time working out what is wrong with these old Mopar systems. I have very good friends, one who owns a battery supply company and another who owns a starter and alternator rebuilding shop and along with help here I came to find the weak point is the old alternator ability to charge at idle speed. The design is old school and very limited, the fix is a modern Denso unit. Which one depends on what you have in the car, a 60 amp is fine for a stock set up, add electric fans, big stereo amps or any other added draws and you go to a 90-120 amp Denso, not so much for total output but greater idle output capacity. I am running a Denso 120 amp (Mancini's kit) on my Charger now for 2-3 months with no other modification to the wiring system, no extra wires or relays anywhere and I have bright lights, fast blower and wipers at idle with all on maximum. I was careful to clean, check and repair the bulkhead, dash and all other wiring connections. Yes even the stock Amp gauge works, my radio is out so I can literally reach in my dash and put my hand on the wiring and gauge to check heat build up. The Denso I'm using can and will throw 40 amps on idle at the gauge and on to the battery if it is low from cranking too much. It heats up fast then cools down, the studs for the Amp gauge are clinched not clinched and soldered and I think on an old gauge that is a factor. Anything added to any system needs to be added off the alt. not the battery, before reaching the gauge. I have decided as I do any repairs or add on/modifications they will not only be crimped properly but soldered. It is also important to know the loads and size the wires and connections for that load. The main feed in the bulkhead is a size 10 wire that is attached to a connector the same size as all of the other connectors in the bulkhead, it is at best small and undersized for it's job. Find Nacho's upgrade solutions and apply them to your car so you don't fry anything.     

[jlatessa]

OK guys, be patient with me, it's been a long time since I've actually been into the engine compartment of a 70 RT.
Ours (my son's and mine) is ready for paint soon and is but a shell.

We've been collecting necessary parts for about 8 years.

Regarding my questions on all these mods;
           1. On a '70, does alt. voltage go directly to the batt? And is 15+ volts too much?
           2. What does regulated voltage supply, instruments and everything else?
           3. If my alt. is pushing 15 volts to the battery, is the battery output what goes through the voltage reg.?

Thanks Joe Latessa

PS bear in mind this is an externally regulated alt.

[b5blue]

OK Joe here we go. 1:No and it depends on condition of battery. Once started power comes from alt through bulkhead and to main splice feeding the "run circuits" of the fuse block just after the main splice that same (black) wire ends at the + side of the amp gauge. The other side of the amp gauge has a (red) wire that runs back through the bulkhead to the Hot post on the starter relay, from there to the battery. If your battery is not charged up to full capacity it will draw power from that red wire and your amp gauge will sense it and show a + amp reading till stabilized. Keep in mind the amp gauge reads - when or if the car is drawing power (any) from the battery greater than the output of the alt. like when something is on with the engine off. (12 volts is kinda misleading it's more like 13.5 or 14 volts needed actually so 15 is high...but not much) 2: The voltage regulator on the firewall controls alt output voltage/amps, The voltage REDUCER on the back of the gauge cluster drops volts to 5 volts for fuel, temp and pressure gauges only. 3: No, the voltage regulator is triggered by low voltage to send tiny fast pulses of electricity to the diodes in the alt that excite the alt to increase output. Battery output SHOULD only be for starting the car or powering something if the motor is off. My system, working proper now, it acts like this...I start my car, the amp gauge reads + amp flow till the power I used starting the car is replaced, then it settles back to center. Now my car is running and I turn something on, there is a jump to + and as the regulator and alt. react to this new demand for more power it drops back to center rather quickly. I can keep turning things on and the same thing happens every time, always ending up with my gauge reading centered. With all things correct (the factory set-up) all the amp gauge is doing is letting me know is that my system is reacting to my demand for power and I am not drawing power from my battery to feed that demand. Like I use to with the old factory alt. at idle with anything on other than lights, the gauge would read - as the battery tried to supply power that the alt. could not keep up with. Increase RPM's and alt output now increases, the gauge now jumps up into + as the system will try to not only power whats "on" but also replace the power the battery "gave up" running stuff at idle. That back and forth interaction is what cooks amp gauges and bulkhead connectors/wire as they just keep getting hotter and hotter. A weak battery will never top off and give a constant + reading at the gauge, the weaker the battery the greater the reading. Crappy connections anywhere overwork the system as they make heat as a resister would and as the heat increases the resistance grows. There is nothing "wrong" with the system as designed other than old alt design was very low output at low RPM's. Age of the system is the biggest problem now, corroded connections, baked wire, poorly done repairs, improper modifications and misunderstanding the concepts applied give it all a bad name. Nacho has some well explained, illustrated upgrades that can make use of the factory system and if done carefully and properly make the whole thing bullet proof. The key is a good battery and an alt that charges well at idle RPM.     

[jlatessa]

Much clearer now thanks to you, for some reason I had the wrong understanding of the regulator's job.

I have been absorbing everyone's input on these forums and wish to thanks everyone for their time and expertise and willingness to share.
I was an original owner of an A12 RR and did a bunch of drag racing in the 70s sponsored by a Willoughby OH dealership.

A lot of my knowledge is now obsolete regarding cam grind theory etc., and, as you can tell, electrics.

We have a 71 440 HP engine with the big rods and steel crank. We finished putting together with a original 69 6 bbl manifold, reworked carbs, the old purple cam (284/284, .485 lift) Larger valves with a bowl contour and Hooker Supercomp headers.

Have all the chrome done ,except for buffing the front and rear window and wheelwell trim.

Rebuilt the heater box, made a solid state voltage reducer from Digikey parts and welded the ammeter studs.
Rebuilt ticktoc tach and a lot of other little pieces.

Hoping to get the chassis back soon so I have some good weather to put the pieces together.

Again, thanks loads!!!

JOe

[2Gunz]

I think part of your problem is there are two schools of thought on how the charging system should work.

I'm going to break them down real fast for you and others.



1. Alternator is connected to the AMP gauge which is then connected to the battery.  (This is the stock charging setup)  
           All accessory's MUST be connected on the alternator side of the charging system for the gauge correctly.
           This is Nacho's setup.


Pros -          
                   
Amp gauge works correctly.
Car retains its stock look.


Cons-

After jump starting it may be possible to fry the AMP gauge and/or wiring in the car.      (Basically a 90+ amp alt suddenly trying to charge a battery on wiring that was designed to handle 40 or so.)
Wires and connections need to be is perfect shape.
If your amp gauge stops working so does your car.
Possible amperage output from the alternator exceeds the amount it was designed to handle.


2.   Alternator is connected directly to the battery.  Amp gauge is bypassed and a voltage gauge is installed.   This is my setup.


Pros-

A dead amp gauge wont leave you stranded. (if the amp gauge dies you lose all power to the car).
Easier wiring of addons because they can be connected to the battery. (please add fuses!)
Brighter headlights.
Jumping a dead battery isn't an issue.
Less headaches with old wiring as your only asking the wiring to do what it was designed to do.


Cons    

Car loses the stock look.
No amp gauge.  (to me this really isn't a much of a con. All you really need to know is if the alternator is working. A volt gauge will do that.  You lose how much its charging, but
                       if its charging 10 amps or 30 ....... who cares, and its difficult to turn that into real world useful information)





Im sure there are more.



Hope this helps.

[NHCharger]

Just to update my issues.
Tonight my son and I installed the front bumper assembly. i plugged the headlight motor in. With the floor switch for the headlights on low the doors stay open, even with the headlight switch off. If you have the floor switch on high beams the headlight motor works normally.
gotta love the electrical system in our old cars.

[b5blue]

It is a "feed back loop" check lights for burnt out bulbs or bad connections. I'm running a 69 440 block .060 over with an early 70 (aluminum) six pack set up also. Stock 346 heads and a Mopar "Resto" cam, (the old Road Runner grind) mine is a 70 Charger too. I'd like to point out that one wire alternators have a main drawback not mentioned, this is they have "no remote sensing" of voltage drop, fine for a tractor or a car that is engineered for that but our Mopar's are actually kind of between true remote sensing of load and a one wire set up. check out this sight:  www.madelectrical.com     

[femtnmax]

1. Alternator is connected to the AMP gauge which is then connected to the battery.  (This is the stock charging setup)  
           All accessory's MUST be connected on the alternator side of the charging system for the gauge correctly.
           This is Nacho's setup.


2.   Alternator is connected directly to the battery.  Amp gauge is bypassed and a voltage gauge is installed.   This is my setup.

Correction:  OEM is your number 1 as you have stated, and that's why it needs upgraded.  Nacho's is your number 2.

[b5blue]

  Get your headlight doors working?

[squeakfinder]

   I didn't see any point in starting a new thread. I used circut breakers instead of fuses.
Soldered all the connections.

[Ghoste]

Clever update and smart on the soldering too.  Got a make and model number on the breakers?

[Nacho-RT74]

1. Alternator is connected to the AMP gauge which is then connected to the battery.  (This is the stock charging setup)   
            All accessory's MUST be connected on the alternator side of the charging system for the gauge correctly.
            This is Nacho's setup.


2.    Alternator is connected directly to the battery.  Amp gauge is bypassed and a voltage gauge is installed.   This is my setup.

Correction:  OEM is your number 1 as you have stated, and that's why it needs upgraded.  Nacho's is your number 2.

correction, I keep the OEM setup, just reinforcing it to save the weakness of stock bulkhead conectors, So thats my setup too.

( wow, this reply is old... never read before )

[squeakfinder]

    Part number on breakers is CBC30HB. I bought everything at a local car parts store.

   The name on the bag that they came in is "Cooper Bussmann Inc." St. Louis, MO.

[AKcharger]

OK I hope some of you guys that did the mod are still around. I plan do do this on both my '72 and '70. Ive read though this post completely and REALLY like the idea of installing the relays via the dimmer switch to avoid cutting into the harness. BUT it seems a majority of people that went that route had problems as opposed to those just putting the relays under the battery.

Feedback?

[myk]

Hmmm...I'm one of the ones that put the relay "under" the battery, as you put it, and I've had no issues.  I can't imagine why anyone would have issues installing the relays via the dimmer switch, unless there're issues with your switch and/or related wiring...

[squeakfinder]

     I thought one of the cons to placing them under the kick panel or dash was that your still running the currant threw the bulkhead connector. As far as splicing at the radiator support, I haven't had any issue's.

[myk]

Yeah, yeah, yeah you're right-I totally forgot about that; I guess mounting at the dimmer switch would defeat the purpose of bypassing the bulkhead connector.  Yes, IMO 'AK you'd be better off mounting that stuff at the radiator support...

[AKcharger]

    I thought one of the cons to placing them under the kick panel or dash was that your still running the currant threw the bulkhead connector....

That is spot on! and pretty much makes up my mind...thanks guys!


Oh, one more question, it just dawned on me. Does power running though the AMP guage power EVERYTHING except the starter??? (headlights, Fan, wipers ect) If so that's a messed up design!

[squeakfinder]

I'm not going to google info for a reply. Just going by memory. I believe Ford and GM did away with that design by the early 1960's. Mopar on the other hand kept the design until 1978-79? 

  All those problems at the bulkhead connector to the amp gauge probably allowed some dealership mechanics to make some easy money. I just run a 10 gauge wire through a grommet on the firewall to the amp gauge. Bypassing the weak link at the bulkhead. Allthough the volt gauge conversion sounds like a better idea.

[A383Wing]

    I thought one of the cons to placing them under the kick panel or dash was that your still running the currant threw the bulkhead connector....

That is spot on! and pretty much makes up my mind...thanks guys!


Oh, one more question, it just dawned on me. Does power running though the AMP guage power EVERYTHING except the starter??? (headlights, Fan, wipers ect) If so that's a messed up design!

wires in & out of ammeter power everything on my cars

Bryan

[Brock Lee]

I did this mod 6 years and many thousands of miles ago and all is fine. I did the headlight and alternator mod at the same time. Before this I would go through an alternator or a battery a year. I am still on the ones in the car 6 years ago I bought just before the mods.