Another Timing Question

[RT DAVE]

Let me start off by saying I've read through all the posts on timing and am posting this new thread because I need some clarification because I am confused about some things.   

I was going through an old Mopar Action article "A Stitch in Time" because the mechanic that I brought my car to thinks that vacuum advance is non-adjustable.      Anyhow, I had the thing set to 35 at 3000 rpm and asked him to retard the vac advance.  His solution was to retard the initial timing because he said the vac advance couldn't be adjusted. 

Well, my question involves the following last step of Mr. Ehrenberg's article:

"with revs at 3000 rpm again connect vacuum hose from distributor directly to manifold vacuum.  Spark should now be at least 50-55 deg. if less, adjust vacuum chamber"

My question involves the bold portion.  Is he saying connect the distributor to the carbuerator fitting you would under normal driving conditions or his he saying connect it to some other source of vacuum?   Basically, which two things need to be connected to check this spark reading?  Please help.  Thanks in advance.

Sorry if I am sounding like too much of a Noob.  I've been trusting and paying others to work on my car because I'm looking for a job and watching my one y.o. son & three y.o. daughter about 14 hours a day right now.   No time to work on the car or really research it enough on my own.   Thanks guys or gals (there's a couple out there, I think). 

[firefighter3931]

Dave, fwiw i always disable the vacuum advance. I'm sure i've written those words here at least 100 times 

Just plug it up and adjust the total timing to 36-38*. After that has been done take a look and see how much timing you have at idle. It should be in the 12*+ range (at idle) depending on what cam you have in the motor.


Ron

[RT DAVE]

Dave, fwiw i always disable the vacuum advance. I'm sure i've written those words here at least 100 times 

Just plug it up and adjust the total timing to 36-38*. After that has been done take a look and see how much timing you have at idle. It should be in the 12*+ range (at idle) depending on what cam you have in the motor.


Ron

I had the thing at 35*@3000 and it was pinging pretty good at half throttle under load.   I'm running the MP Purple shaft with the .474 lift on a M1 DP intake.  I got 2.18/1.81 valves with a three angle valve job.   I'm in the 10:1 range for compression and am running a stock converter with 3.23 gears.   I hope my combo isn't too far out of wack.   

I'll do what you say soon and report back. 

[Chryco Psycho]

you will have to lenghten the curve a little & reduce teh initial / idle timing to reduce pinging & dial in some vacuum advance
generally it will only ping at low RPM & not at higher RPM
the vacuum adjusts with a small allen wrench in the vacuum port  counter clockwise reduces the advance

[RT DAVE]

Well, me and a new pal of mine from the MOPARTS board farted around with it today and tried a range of 32-36 at 3000 and the thing still pings like a mofo even with the vac advance disconnected/plugged.  Limped it home on the highway with the advance disconnected.   We also tried to decrease the vacuum advance and the thing wouldn't adjust down.   Had 65 total timing at 3000 with advance connected so we disconnected when it wouldn't adjust out.   In fact, with the vac advance connected, the timing light was jumping all over the place.  That wasn't happening with the advance disconnected.  Anybody else have this problem?   How far can I retard this thing to get rid of the pinging and not worry about hurting the motor.  I already know I'm not doing it any good as it is.    Some other variables to consider:

-Ten of the twenty gallons of gas in the tank are two years old.   The gas that sat in the tank had stabilizer in it, however
- We put some octane boost in the tank and topped it off with no result.   
-Motor has between 10:1 & 10.5:1 compression
-Cast iron heads with bigger valves, mp purple shaft .474 cam, mopar m1 dual plane, edelbrock 800 cfm carb.   

[TylerCharger69]

just a thought...but   could your timing chain be worn?....Or maybe misplacement of the distributor?   The solutions posted should've solved your problem between all the posts that are on this topic.  It's possible your balancer is not accurate.....the outer ring may have spun......that's a shot in the dark though.

[firefighter3931]

Dave, make sure the carb isn't jetted lean. A lean mixture will cause the motor to ping. Have you looked at the plugs ? If so, what color were they ? Also, have a look at the advance weights and the plate in your distributor...make sure the weights aren't sticking and that both springs are intact.


Ron

[RT DAVE]

Dave, make sure the carb isn't jetted lean. A lean mixture will cause the motor to ping. Have you looked at the plugs ? If so, what color were they ? Also, have a look at the advance weights and the plate in your distributor...make sure the weights aren't sticking and that both springs are intact.


Ron

What would the plugs look like if a lean condition existed?  Is there anything else I need to look at to make this determination?  I'll take some pics of the plugs when I get around to this.   

How much can I retard this thing to get rid of the pinging? 

Also, do you think I did/could have done much damage driving this thing 15-20 miles on the highway?  Basically, would I know if I've hurt the thing or will I have caused damage that will gradually get worse over time?   I don't know why I'm worrying because there ain't nothing I can do about it now.   

[firefighter3931]

The plugs will be white or light grey if it's lean. Tan/light brown is good. Black/charcoal is too rich. A plug with too warm of a heat range can also create issues, basicly you want to run the coolest plug that won't foul.

If you keep driving it while  it's detonating, the engine will be damaged. I doubt that you've ruined the motor at this point but don't push it until it's fixed. As far as ignition advance/retard....you can go either way as long as the engine runs well. Try retarding the timing to see if you can eliminate the ping.

Map out your ignition curve in 200 rpm increments starting off at idle and record the numbers right up to the point that the ignition no longer advances. Report back with your findings.

Here's some good reading material on tuning. Doug was having similar issues which were resolved with some hard work :

http://1970chargerregistry.com/70messageboard/viewtopic.php?t=1207



Ron

[RT DAVE]

The plugs will be white or light grey if it's lean. Tan/light brown is good. Black/charcoal is too rich. A plug with too warm of a heat range can also create issues, basicly you want to run the coolest plug that won't foul.

If you keep driving it while  it's detonating, the engine will be damaged. I doubt that you've ruined the motor at this point but don't push it until it's fixed. As far as ignition advance/retard....you can go either way as long as the engine runs well. Try retarding the timing to see if you can eliminate the ping.

Map out your ignition curve in 200 rpm increments starting off at idle and record the numbers right up to the point that the ignition no longer advances. Report back with your findings.

Here's some good reading material on tuning. Doug was having similar issues which were resolved with some hard work :

http://1970chargerregistry.com/70messageboard/viewtopic.php?t=1207



Ron

Thanks for the link and the suggestions.  I will report back shortly.  I've come to find my tools are inadequate for some of the most basic mechanic work at this point. 

On a related subject, I need to buy a timing light as I've been borrowing using other peoples tools to this point.  Can you suggest a readout style model to purchase?  I am currently considering this model below.  Cost is an issue to consider. 

http://www.sears.com/sr/javasr/product.do?cat=Mechanics+Tools&pid=00920927000&vertical=TOOL&subcat=Automotive+Testing+Equipment&BV_UseBVCookie=Yes

[firefighter3931]

Dave, that is an excellent timing light with all the good features. The built in tach & LEd readout is sweet ! Believe it or not, i still use my 25year old dc inductive Sears timing light. Of course it doesn't have an led screeen, dialback feature or tach readout, but it still works. 

If that light is in the budget go ahead and order it up. I would also suggest you order a vaccum guage while you're at it. 


Ron

[RT DAVE]

Dave, that is an excellent timing light with all the good features. The built in tach & LEd readout is sweet ! Believe it or not, i still use my 25year old dc inductive Sears timing light. Of course it doesn't have an led screeen, dialback feature or tach readout, but it still works. 

If that light is in the budget go ahead and order it up. I would also suggest you order a vaccum guage while you're at it. 


Ron

Any recommendations on the gauge or will any old gauge do the trick? 

[firefighter3931]

Any quality vac guage will be sufficient. Sears should have something available.


Ron

[Ghoste]

A fresh tank of high octane isn't going to hurt your efforts either.

[RT DAVE]

Here's two pics of the #1 plug.  Please advise at your earliest convenience.  Please note that I drove on these plugs for fifty miles with mild detonation and then made things worse and drove it fifteen miles.   I realize that's a bad thing.   Just putting that out there in case the plugs are showing inconsistent things.   Thanks in advance.

[myk]

The plug's burnt, obviously from the lean condition and the detonation you said you were having...

[RT DAVE]

Silly question, but can I correct the lean condition and run the same plugs or do I need to replace them?  Should I put bigger jets in now or try to adjust the air/fuel mixture first?

[firefighter3931]

Dave, the plugs are showing a lean condition. You should jet up before driving it again. Take it out for a short cruise after you jet up and pull a plug or two to see what they look like (color). Try to stay out of the secondaries....just run it on the primaries during the cruise test to see how close the primary jetting is.

How does the timing curve look ? Initial (base) timing ? Total timing ?


Ron

[RT DAVE]

Dave, the plugs are showing a lean condition. You should jet up before driving it again. Take it out for a short cruise after you jet up and pull a plug or two to see what they look like (color). Try to stay out of the secondaries....just run it on the primaries during the cruise test to see how close the primary jetting is.

How does the timing curve look ? Initial (base) timing ? Total timing ?


Ron

Would you recommend jetting up more than one size?  I'm running the stock jets on a 800 cfm carb.    I'm still working on checking the timing but will definitely check that as well before road testing.   Thanks again. 

[firefighter3931]

Would you recommend jetting up more than one size?  I'm running the stock jets on a 800 cfm carb.    I'm still working on checking the timing but will definitely check that as well before road testing.   Thanks again. 

Dave, go up at least 2 sizes. You're better off being a little rich rather than lean. What plugs are you running ? Are those autolite 85's ?


Ron

[dodge freak]

What size jets are in there now ? I would think 74 would be close but I would first see what you got in there now, seems like Holley put different size jets in the same model carb depending on the year

[RT DAVE]

Would you recommend jetting up more than one size?  I'm running the stock jets on a 800 cfm carb.    I'm still working on checking the timing but will definitely check that as well before road testing.   Thanks again. 

Dave, go up at least 2 sizes. You're better off being a little rich rather than lean. What plugs are you running ? Are those autolite 85's ?


Ron

Should I change the metering rods and step up springs at the same time or just the jets?  Also, the fuel mixture has not been adjusted to the best of my knowledge.  Should I try that first/in addition?  Unsure on the plugs as they were installed by my builder.   They are autolites.   Is that bad?

What size jets are in there now ? I would think 74 would be close but I would first see what you got in there now, seems like Holley put different size jets in the same model carb depending on the year

Not sure on that.  I'll have to find out when I get the thing apart. 

Thanks in advance...   That's a bad pun but I just had to... 

[firefighter3931]

Should I change the metering rods and step up springs at the same time or just the jets?  Also, the fuel mixture has not been adjusted to the best of my knowledge.  Should I try that first/in addition?  Unsure on the plugs as they were installed by my builder.   They are autolites.   Is that bad?

Dave, try making one change at a time. I allways start with the ignition first and get that straightened out before moving onto the carburator. Making a bunch of changes simultaneously can lead to further frustration and head scratching.

Autolites are ok....i was more interested in the heat range of the plug. The 85's are correct for your combination. Personally, i prefer NGK's but run those for now or until they need replacing.

Edelbrock carries a "strip kit" for their carbs....it would be worth getting. The website also has detailed tuning info as well.


Ron

[myk]

So....Will he be changing out the primary and secondary jets, or just the primaries?  Also, he'll be changing the step-up rods also, right? 

[Ghoste]

If you check the Edelbrock tech site, you'll find that there is range of jets to each rod.  Depending on where you are trying to be at you may or may not have to change the rods.  But get the kit that has the rods and jets and then go from there.

[myk]

I've got the kit, the calibration charts and stuff, but I was told that those were very generic tunes and wouldn't necessarily apply to any given car.  Testing, testing and more testing is the only way to do it, I suppose...

[grouseman]

How much timing is coming from each of initial, mechanical, and vacuum?  10 initial and 24 mechanical is ballpark, vacuum can add another 15-18. 

If you aren't getting a good steady reading on your balancer, that could be a big part of your problem.  Perhaps your balancer has spun itself out of phase? 

What are your primary jet and rod specifications, so we can figure out your jetting?  Give us either dimensions or their part numbers (it seems you're running an AFB or AVS?). 

grouseman

[RT DAVE]

I've found some other bone-headed mistakes I'm going to correct before I change any of the rods/jets/springs.  I've noticed the fuel line is not only being pinched by my drop base cleaner but it's also routed over (and touching) the valve cover.  In addition to that, I called the guy who did the work on my car and he did not adjust the air/fuel mixture.  The initial timing is set at three (3) degrees at idle.   I didn't do any of this myself, I actually paid a friend's alleged mechanic to do some work and this is the best he could do.  I'll report back for real when I know more.  Thanks to all who are posting/checking in, I appreciate all the help I've received from y'all...   

[myk]

The fuel line's travel over the valve cover shouldn't be adversely affecting the engine.  As for initial timing, I can't believe any of our engines could run 3*, heck mine's set at 19*...

[RT DAVE]

The fuel line's travel over the valve cover shouldn't be adversely affecting the engine.  As for initial timing, I can't believe any of our engines could run 3*, heck mine's set at 19*...

Unless the timing marks are wrong on my car, that's where it's at now.  Others can opine as to if it is possible to be running at 3 degrees initial timing.   Your's is at 19?  Isn't that a hella lot?  What do you idle at for it to be 19* at idle? 

[myk]

Unless the timing marks are wrong on my car, that's where it's at now.  Others can opine as to if it is possible to be running at 3 degrees initial timing.   Your's is at 19?  Isn't that a hella lot? 

I thought so too, but both Chryco and Firefighter told me a while ago that sometimes the best way to tune or time an engine is by ear and "feel."  I was told to disconnect and plug the vacuum advance, then retard or advance the timing until the engine started to pick up RPM.  Once the engine started to pick up ide, then I was supposively on the right track.  I settled on 19* initial timing and I've been satisfied with the results.  My total timing is........well, I forget, but it's like 60* at 2500 RPM or something.  My engine will run on 3* also, but not as well as it does at 19*.  Also, without leaded gas and with our engines at lower compressions, I was under the impression that 10* is usually the lowest you can go with initial timing. 
I really wish that timing thread from the old boards had made it here...

[Chryco Psycho]

if you have a total timing set at 60* & it runs well the timing marks Have to be off 

[Ghoste]

This is probably a dumb question Neil but when the timing marks are off like that, is the damper basically junk?  Do the marks continue to move once they start doing that?  Do they move very gradually over use or hop quickly all over the place?

[myk]

if you have a total timing set at 60* & it runs well the timing marks Have to be off 

Did I say 60?  I probably meant something like 38-it's been awhile since I've high-RPM timed my motor.  Where's it supposed to be at?  38, right?

[Ghoste]

Yeah, 36 or 38.  In there someplace depending on what your engine wants.

[Chryco Psycho]

generally a damper that far off is not in good condition although getting a replacement can be tough , especially if it is a cast crank /balanced damper , oftent eh cover can be off too with the timing marks not in the correct place to match the damper used , this is a big part of why I time by ear & do not use a light

[myk]

Time by ear?  I'm assuming that you merely rotate the distributor until the RPM's start to kick up to a satisfactory speed, and then lock down the distributor? 

[myk]

Yeah, 36 or 38.  In there someplace depending on what your engine wants.

Right.  Oh, but what speed are you supposed to time it at?  I've heard reports of everything from 2500 to 4000 RPM...

[Ghoste]

Ah, well that part depends on how quickly you are trying to accelerate.  For most of us on here, the 2500 figure is where you want it all in by.

[myk]

So, we want our timing in by 2500 because we want the motor to be "woken" up by at those speeds, right?  4K seemed a little late to me...

[firefighter3931]

So, we want our timing in by 2500 because we want the motor to be "woken" up by at those speeds, right?  4K seemed a little late to me...

That is correct....the faster the curve, the better (stronger) the engine will feel.


Ron

[RT DAVE]

Well, this is as far as I got before the wife complained about me stinkin up the house.  Will have to get at it again this weekend after some input.   Here's what I got so far:

First off, I'll attach a picture of the timing tab so maybe you can tell me what I'm looking at.  First off, I'm assuming the hole in the timing cover corresponds to zero.  Is that correct?   Previously, I assumed the mark that somebody put on there was zero and that's why I thought the thing was running at 3*.  My mistake.  I'm a noob.   
Anyhow, assuming that hole is zero, the thing made maximum vac of 14hg at 17 degrees.   When I went to set the idle mixture, the screws were four plus turns out from closed.  If I recall correctly, you (Ron) mentioned not to go more than 1 1/2 turns, which is what I did.   The thing made 14 hg at that amount of turns and didn't make any more beyond that.    I took a road test and brought my wrench and retarded the timing down to 10.7 and it still pings, but not as bad.   It's a dog, however.   Time to jet up or should I do a timing curve first?  How much further can I retard the timing without worrying about damaging the motor?  I want to get the vehicle to a friend's house but don't want to wreck it on the way there. Sorry about all the jibber-jabbering.   Let me know what you all think.   

[firefighter3931]

Dave, the hole in the tab corresponds to zero. The lower white line should be 10* btdc. Try mapping out the timing curve like we discussed in the pm's and see what you come up with. It could be advancing too much at higher rpms or advancing too quickly. The other issue i see is the cam. The street hemi grind is a little on the big side for a stock converter and 3.23 gearing.


Ron

[RT DAVE]

Dave, the hole in the tab corresponds to zero. The lower white line should be 10* btdc. Try mapping out the timing curve like we discussed in the pm's and see what you come up with. It could be advancing too much at higher rpms or advancing too quickly. The other issue i see is the cam. The street hemi grind is a little on the big side for a stock converter and 3.23 gearing.


Ron

Well, I only took three readings.  I think the distributor is the problem.   I set it at twelve* @850 and only took the following measurements.    25*@1500 and then 40*@2000.   Is it safe to assume this dist is advancing way too much and too soon?   I didn't take any other measurements because I thought 40* was beyond what I wanted even at 4000 much less 2000.  Let me know where to go from here.   Thanks much.   

[firefighter3931]

  I think the distributor is the problem.   I set it at twelve* @850 and only took the following measurements.    25*@1500 and then 40*@2000.   Is it safe to assume this dist is advancing way too much and too soon?   I didn't take any other measurements because I thought 40* was beyond what I wanted even at 4000 much less 2000.  Let me know where to go from here.   Thanks much.   

Bingo ! Yes the distributor has too much mechanical advance built in and the advance speed is too fast....both of which are contributing to your problems. Dave, try it one more time and keep increasing the speed until it stops advancing. I'd like to know how much mechanical advance is built into this distributor.

Is this an MP distributor ? If so, how old is it ? The New MP dist are built be Mallory and can be tuned fairly easy with their tuning kit...


And the answer to the question you're thinking of right now....Yes it can be fixed 


Ron

[RT DAVE]

  I think the distributor is the problem.   I set it at twelve* @850 and only took the following measurements.    25*@1500 and then 40*@2000.   Is it safe to assume this dist is advancing way too much and too soon?   I didn't take any other measurements because I thought 40* was beyond what I wanted even at 4000 much less 2000.  Let me know where to go from here.   Thanks much.   

Bingo ! Yes the distributor has too much mechanical advance built in and the advance speed is too fast....both of which are contributing to your problems. Dave, try it one more time and keep increasing the speed until it stops advancing. I'd like to know how much mechanical advance is built into this distributor.

Is this an MP distributor ? If so, how old is it ? The New MP dist are built be Mallory and can be tuned fairly easy with their tuning kit...


And the answer to the question you're thinking of right now....Yes it can be fixed 


Ron

I called MP and they claim the way to tell is the Mallory Unit will have an allen head screw under the rotor.  Mine doesn't, so I assume this is the MP piece.  Can you confirm from this pic?  Is this the only way to distinguish the two?  The tech said if it is an MP piece, modifying the curve would require welding & grinding, which is beyond what I have skills/tools to do.  I bought this thing four years ago. 
I'll check to see where it stops advancing, but is there a point where I should stop for safety's sake (for instance, if it goes beyond 50*)?  I would have actually gone further with it today if it weren't also for the tornadoes coming this way.  I was outside with the car because I didn't want to give my family carbon monoxide poisoning doing it in my attached garage.   
I'm considering just getting another distributor.  Would you recommend the new MP unit made by Mallory or something else?  I want to replace it with something that will be a direct replacement.   I don't want to rewire anything other than the connections at the distributor itself, if possible. I really want to get this thing on the road soon.  I haven't made any happy memories with this car since 1993 and need to make up for lost time.  My three year old daughter keeps asking for rides and wants to see a burn out.   Thanks again. 

[firefighter3931]

Dave, if you don't want to get into welding up the slots then the new MP distributor built by Mallory is your best bet. It will drop right in and plug into the existing wiring. Mallory also sells a kit to tune the mechanical advance but you probably won't need it because the "new" MP distributors are set up much better with less mechanical advance.

There's no problem checking the advance with the car in park or neutral under a "No load" condition but you wouldn't want to drive it with 50* advance.


Ron

[RT DAVE]

Dave, if you don't want to get into welding up the slots then the new MP distributor built by Mallory is your best bet. It will drop right in and plug into the existing wiring. Mallory also sells a kit to tune the mechanical advance but you probably won't need it because the "new" MP distributors are set up much better with less mechanical advance.

There's no problem checking the advance with the car in park or neutral under a "No load" condition but you wouldn't want to drive it with 50* advance.


Ron

The Mallory unit is just the normal MP piece now and not the Billet One piece dist, correct? 

[firefighter3931]

Dave, if you don't want to get into welding up the slots then the new MP distributor built by Mallory is your best bet. It will drop right in and plug into the existing wiring. Mallory also sells a kit to tune the mechanical advance but you probably won't need it because the "new" MP distributors are set up much better with less mechanical advance.

There's no problem checking the advance with the car in park or neutral under a "No load" condition but you wouldn't want to drive it with 50* advance.


Ron

The Mallory unit is just the normal MP piece now and not the Billet One piece dist, correct? 

Yes, that is my understanding. Maybe a call to MP to confirm is in order. 


Ron

[RT DAVE]

Dave, if you don't want to get into welding up the slots then the new MP distributor built by Mallory is your best bet. It will drop right in and plug into the existing wiring. Mallory also sells a kit to tune the mechanical advance but you probably won't need it because the "new" MP distributors are set up much better with less mechanical advance.

There's no problem checking the advance with the car in park or neutral under a "No load" condition but you wouldn't want to drive it with 50* advance.


Ron

The Mallory unit is just the normal MP piece now and not the Billet One piece dist, correct? 

Yes, that is my understanding. Maybe a call to MP to confirm is in order. 


Ron

I actually called them yesterday and the guy I talked to didn't know. 

[firefighter3931]

I actually called them yesterday and the guy I talked to didn't know. 

Why is that not surprising 

Dave, give Mancini racing a call. If they can't give you an answer, i will find out for sure from a buddy who works for MP. 


Ron

[RT DAVE]

I actually called them yesterday and the guy I talked to didn't know. 

Why is that not surprising 

Dave, give Mancini racing a call. If they can't give you an answer, i will find out for sure from a buddy who works for MP. 


Ron

I called them again and talk to the same guy (Evan).  He said they weren't sourced from Mallory but wouldn't divulge the manufacturer.   I'll try mancini.  Thanks .

[firefighter3931]

Dave, if Mancini can't give you an answer, try contacting this guy. Rob worked as an engineer for Mallory before starting up his new business. He will have the answers.

http://robbmcperformance.com/index.html


Ron


Ps. I sent a message off to my buddy at MP...we'll see what he has to say 

[firefighter3931]

Ok, just got a message back and here's the scoop :

For the last 3-4 years, MP has been using the Mallory advance mechanism in their MP distributors. Dave, your's might have the Mallory mechanism allready installed given it's age. You need to pull the relucter and breaker plate off to see if there are any torx screws underneath. The torx screws can be adjusted to limit the mechanical advance and there is no kit required per say, unless you want to speed up or slow down the curve with lighter or heavier springs.

I'd have a peek underneath to see what you've got before ordering anything. 

Fwiw, i haven't used one of the newer style MP distributors and mine is an older model with the welded up plate. My next MP dizzy will be a whole lot easier to work with, though. 


Ron

[RT DAVE]

Ok, just got a message back and here's the scoop :

For the last 3-4 years, MP has been using the Mallory advance mechanism in their MP distributors. Dave, your's might have the Mallory mechanism allready installed given it's age. You need to pull the relucter and breaker plate off to see if there are any torx screws underneath. The torx screws can be adjusted to limit the mechanical advance and there is no kit required per say, unless you want to speed up or slow down the curve with lighter or heavier springs.

I'd have a peek underneath to see what you've got before ordering anything. 

Fwiw, i haven't used one of the newer style MP distributors and mine is an older model with the welded up plate. My next MP dizzy will be a whole lot easier to work with, though. 


Ron

The guy I talked to said the newer style dist would have an allen-head screw underneath the rotor that would change the advance rate.  He said that both today and yesterday when I talked to him.  Not saying you or your buddy at MP are wrong, just wondering how both scenarios could be correct.  He also said if there was no allen-head screw under the rotor that it was an old style unit.  Maybe there's a third style of dist now?  Who knows.  I've already ordered another one at this point and I guess I'll just have to be POd if it's the same dist I already have.  I'll let you know how things work out.  Thanks for your and everyone's help to this point. 

-Dave

[Ghoste]

Then again, the guy you talked to at MP also knew nothing about Mallory.