How Does Flipping Affect This Hobby?

[chrisII]

all this talk is getting me more and more tempted to flip my charger, even tho ive sworn that ill die owning it. a gallon of bondo an a gallon of cheap paint an i could make about 5 grand on that thing. new coat of wax an i could make about 2 on my duster. then if i wanted i could buy a charger in about the same shape mine is in, or a really nice duster

[skip68]

I'm sorry but I have to say this.    IT'S JUST A CAR  If I come across a killer deal, am I supposed to pass on making a buck ? It could be a charger, a 55 chevy, or a mustang. A deal is a deal and it's all the same to me. THINGS ARE ONLY WORTH WHAT SOMEONE IS WILLING TO PAY!!! I think (Flipping) may make a small part but look at it like this, If you can't find these good deals on your own but the guy (Flipping) can, well that makes him a dealer.  SO, you are paying for his time and leg work. That's the way I look at it. ...............Chuck

[Alaskan_TA]

Flipping has it's good and bad points.

If someone lets a car sit, people complain because he is "going to restore it some day".

If someone shows up one day with cash and makes an offer when the guy has bills he needs to pay, and the owner says yes, the buyer is congratulated for getting it away from the guy.

If the buyer then sells it and makes money on the deal, everyone complains again.

Then buyer #2 buys it and restores it and is congratulated.

Viscious cycle if you ask me. Like any group of people, there are good and bad "flippers". But some of them have a rare talent to find these cars, show up with cash and get them to someone who can and will restore them.  It is the way they do it and carry out their business that makes them good or bad, not the act of "flipping" itself.

Honest businessmen reap the rewards and so do their clients.

Barry

[bull]

I don't have any major problems with it unless the goal is to take advantage of someone's ignorance or desperation. Of course there are ways to protect yourself if you're in the buying market but there seem to be two types of people in this hobby. One type I have met will do anything for you. They will send you ads of local cars for sale, they will go and look at cars for sale for you in their area, they will tip you off on potential sales or send you to the right people to talk to, etc. And they do it because "Mopar guys look out for each other." (Almost an exact quote from two guys up in Michigan who looked at a car for me). Then there's the other kind of Mopar guy who pays lip service to the above but loves to pressure someone into selling them a Mopar cheap and then pressures the flip buyer to pay $4k more than he just paid. That I think is an example of questionable if not poor ethics. There are better ways to go about doing it than that IMO. For example, If I went out and got a fair deal on a '68 and than sat on it for 6 months to a year, doing nothing to it in the meantime, and let the market increase during that time I would have no problem selling it for a profit. And if I actually did some work for that profit (like clean it up, get some paperwork squared away, bolted down some trim, whatever) all the better. Some people don't have a problem taking advantage of others but I think it's better on your conscience and reputation in the long run if you don't. This community is fairly small and it doesn't take long for so-and-so to talk to such-and-such and you suddenly find your reputation in the crapper. I could have easily charged a guy recently to look at a Charger for him here in Portland but I remembered what those guys in Michigan said and how they took care of me without any obligation, and enjoyed it. To me that is worth a lot more than money.

[Brock Samson]

those are some great points barry

[TheGhost]

Flipping doesn't bother me, UNLESS they start asking crazy money.  Or they do the whole "Buy it from a little old lady for a song and dance, while claiming that they will take good care of the car, then list it for sale a week later, asking a helluva lot more than they got for it" routine.

[bull]

I think some people have blurred the line in their minds between this being a hobby and it being a business. So what if you like Mopars when you're using them to take advantage of people? Most people who run a small business enjoy the type of theme they choose, be it a golf shop, a restaurant or a theater, but the bottom line for those people is profit. If there's no profit there's no business. So if you're main goal from an interest in Mopars is to profit, it's not really a hobby.

hob·by1    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (hb)
n. pl. hob·bies
An activity or interest pursued outside one's regular occupation and engaged in primarily for pleasure.

[skip68]

    AN HONEST DOLLAR IS AN HONEST DOLLAR !!!  No matter where it comes from. Like I say,  supply and demand..................

[Ghoste]

Bull makes an interesting point.  Not so long ago, this was just a hobby and that was all it was.  Very suddenly it became a business as well.  A large business at that.  When you get into the realm of Hemi cars you quickly end up in dollar figures that most of us never ever dreamed of needing in order to participate in the hobby.  Even the vintage Ferarri and Duesenberg crowd didn't trade so often in the millions of dollars.
Like any big business, there will be the ethical and the sharkical (yes, I know that isn't really a word).
Bottom feeders like our buddy Hans have always been in every type of business from the first caveman who opened up a club making shop so you can't even really factor Hellpigs in.  They are shady, two bit used car con artists who unfortunately use Chargers as the means to their con.

[694spdRT]

I don't really consider dealers to be "flippers".  They are operating a business where the whole point is turning cars for a profit. While the business practices of each dealer vary the goal of each is to profit.  The majority of classic car dealers I see rely on all sorts of makes and models to keep the business going. It just happens that Mopars are hot right now and command the highest prices. In my mind the word "flipper" better defines an individual who finds a deal privately and then purchases it with the sole intent of selling it again. Whether the product is a car, house, antique, etc. the goal is to resell the item at a gain.

IMO Ebay and Barrett Jackson are the biggest contirbutors to price inflation because it is available for the whole world to see. The opinion whether it is a good or bad effect really depends if you are trying to sell or buy a car right now.

[Old Moparz]

I think I've posted something on this subject before at Moparts, & maybe here too. I agree with the comments about supply & demand being the biggest factor, but the definition of a flipper is just as clear, or unclear, as the definition of a re-body. Once people can agree on the definition, the rest will fall into place. Buying a car cheap & selling for more is fine in my opinion, but it's the people who use an underhanded approach who've tacked on the negative aspect.

I've bought cars & parts at times & ended up selling them later for a profit. I've also lost a bunch of money too, but my intent wasn't to buy & resell at all, so the thought of being a "flipper" never entered my mind. I've changed projects, ended up bored or more interested in a different car & decided to get rid of something. I got lucky sometimes, like buying things cheap & having the market for the same thing go up to an insane price.

I've been taken advantage of before thinking I was doing someone a favor who had no intention, other than to resell at a big profit. It doesn't have to happen more than once or twice to have a deal like that sour my feelings on giving someone a break later on. I have though, but usually to someone I know well, or a good friend. If someone can find a good deal, sell it for more to someone else that is glad to pay more, then I see nothing wrong at all.

It's mostly when the intent is truly to screw the seller, or a potential seller, like seeing a car in a yard & telling them "My favorite deceased uncle had one of those, & I just have to have it to remember him by" that bugs people. It doesn't take long to earn a rep as a flipper, but I guess if they have the nerve to do that in the first place, they just don't give a rat's ass about anyone but themselves & could care less if that's what they get called.

[dodgecharger-fan]

Here's a "fer instance" for everyone to ponder.
I'm not making an argument for either side of the discussion. This is just an opportunity to discuss this topic based on an "in the moment" event.
These are facts.

I just bought a car at what I think is a pretty good price.

I'm going to have some work done to it to clean it up and get it safetied.
Then I am going to enjoy it for at least the rest of the summer. Unless it sells sooner.
I will put it on the fun field at a big MOPAR show. I will have a for sale sign in the window.

The NADA guide says that my car in a "20 footer" condition is worth about 4 or 5 times what I paid for it. After I pay for the work done, it'll be more like 3 times.

The person I bought the car from is very knowledgable in the hobby, has several other MOPARs including a HEMI cuda. So, there's no way I pulled a fast one on anybody and "stole" the car.

If I get what I've got into it, I'll be happy. If I get more, does that make me bad?
If it ends up needed a lot of work, I'll likley have to part it to get my money out of it.

Am I a flipper? Maybe.

My intent is to have a car in the fun field. That's why I bought it.
I bought that particular car because it showed up right after I  got the idea in my head. The price was right and the amount of work needed is, I hope, very little.

Finances dictate that I don't hold on to it for very long. (I'm not a richie rich pushing the buy button.)

[resq302]

I see flipping as both helping and hurting the hobby, basically a double edged sword.

Helping the hobby:

-raises the prices and value of our  cars.
-gets cars out of barns and other places that would probably be just rusting away.
-adds more cars to the market so that people that have money has more options for cars they are looking for.

Hurts the hobby:

-raises prices of junkers that a younger person used to be able to afford to something that can not be obtained.
-makes people see what kind of prices the cars are going for and gives criminals ideas of now stealing our cars that are worth a lot of money.
-makes the prices of services go up in turn because the prices of cars are selling for more.
-makes the prices of parts go up due to the greater demand for parts because "people that buy junkers will need parts to get it restored"

Basically, it all boils down to what your personal beliefs are.  Me, I personally dont encourage it as I think that if you are going to flip the cars, go into the used car business and become a salesman.  If you do chose to flip cars, pick cars that are not desireable cars so the prices of say a 4 door coronet will get raised.  But again, it all comes down to what you believe and what your morals are.

[bull]

That sounds like a legitimate deal to me, charger fan. I think your heart is in the right place. But there is a line that some people cross and I don't quite know how to define it. I think it's when a seller finds a way to take advantage of someone who doesn't know what it takes to restore a Charger, or what they're really worth, etc. There is a responsibility on the part of the buyer (buyer beware) but that only goes so far. Often lies and deceit come into play for some sellers, ie., hlpag, when they find someone who's uniformed about these cars. That said, I think it's just stupid for a buyer to be uninformed but it's malicious for a seller to be deceitful. We feel somewhat sorry for a dumb guy but there's little sympathy for someone who's malicious.

I have no real ambition to be a flipper. Maybe I'm not brave enough to take chances, maybe I don't like the feeling of potentially causing problems, maybe I'd rather find easier ways to make money, I don't know. What I do know is that I love Chargers, always have, and I only need, want and have room for one.

[694spdRT]

If you do chose to flip cars, pick cars that are not desireable cars so the prices of say a 4 door coronet will get raised.  But again, it all comes down to what you believe and what your morals are.

In order to flip there needs to be demand and 4 doors just don't cut it. Actually, if you cut them up for parts you might be alright. 

[4402tuff4u]

I know two guys, really nice guys - very helpful, that are Mopar freaks that strictly go to Carlisle and other shows to look for rare parts that are being sold very cheap because they don't know what they have or don't care - I don't really see anything wrong with that, it's finding gems between the rocks. It's not my cup of tea to do that. I'm more interested in bringing a whole car to it's youth and looking for the parts to do that. But just to look for parts for rarity to turn around and sell it, is just simply downright boring to me!! Even to do that in the internet has to be boring.

What's my point? My point is that everyone involved in this hobby should respect everyone else's interest in this hobby and we all know that flipping parts, cars, etc.. will ultimately bring the prices higher - not fair for those trying/struggling to get a Mopar, or keep it running or just simply driving it around. But actually, what is really fair in this world? If any of us had an opportunity to flip something for a profit (or not) that we really didn't need or care for, we would do it in an instance. I'm fortunate enough to know a few fellow Mopar friends that have practically given me parts below cost and advise just to see my Charger come through and those are the people that really count in this hobby. All the others are part timers in it for the profit and not the love! So be it.

[topduarte]

My belief is "If you snooze, you lose!".

Tell me if you go by a field and see a hemi car sitting in a field, lets say it is in need of a total restoration ($40k plus) and they owner is selling if for about $5k.

You know it is worth as is about $10k to $15k and can make about $4k minimum after title transfer, taxes, transport, etc.

Would you do it??

I know I would to throw that $4k toward my charger project or pay off other charger related bills.

It is a business world out there and money and sex will always run the world (my dad's saying)

At the same time, if I know if a mopar buddy of mine is looking for a small trim piece and you find one for half of what he has been seeing on ebay, etc.  You buy and I would sell it to him for what I paid.

A friend of mine did this by buying a car another friend had been looking for awhile.  He paid $2800 for it and knew his buddy wanted it so he sold it to him for $3500.  first guy only made about $400 for his trouble to get the car, get the license and pay taxes and get title.

2nd guy agreed that the $400 profit was fair for his work in getting the car first.

There is a gray area on what is ethical and what is not!!

Just my $.02!!!

[Todd Wilson]

I am sure all the flippers out there have reported the income they made to the IRS and paid taxes on it.



Todd

[rare69]

i say flip all you want, just dont screw your mopar loving buddy for a thirty dollar part to help finish his dream car! and sell him a fifty cent rusted piece of crap and tell him its perfect!
i hate to say it but there are members here who only want your money, not your friendship. and would probably screw anybody with a check book.

[Ghoste]

I would be more inclined to think the flipper is one who ONLY buys ultra cheap and ALWAYS with the intention to rape the seller.
However, in a capitalist society should there ever be a point that we consider a seller as being raped?  After all, a free market means just that, "free".  Should there be any rule except buyer beware?  Capitalism is a jungle and the fittest survive.

[4402tuff4u]

It's all about living in a "opportunist" society. Case in point: Let's say you learned that there was a house around the corner from you that was owned by this old lady and she was moving to a retirement community type of place because she could'nt afford the taxes, maintenance, living expenses and was selling everything in the house including the house for lack of money. You happen to stop by to look at what she has for sale and she mentions that she has a car in the garage for sale that the husband had. You check the car out and it's a 68 Hemi Coronet 440, one of two ever made. She says she wants $ 800 bucks for it since it's so old and has not been driven in 20 years because it's a gas guzzler for her to drive, but you know that the car is worth mega more. You also know that she needs the money because of the reasons she has mentioned previously. You obviously would'nt flip this Coronet, but knowing what you know about the car and what you paid the old lady in dire need of money - does it make you a better person or worse person than the flipper that's trying to make a profit?   

[Ghoste]

What if you offered the old lady 500 bucks because it is an old wreck after all ma'am.  And then you immediately got on the phone to Craig Jackson to consign for next January?

[jwilk01]

This is just a thought but if you are going to flip a mega rare car that you got off of a old lady.  She says she wants $800 for it you know the car as it sits is worth say $100,000.  Why not be a good person and give her $10,000 grand you then don't feel bad about the car because you now have taken care of the lady for the rest of her days, and you can now flip it and make alot of money.   Or don't buy it off of her just tell her the car is worth alot of money and you can sell it for her and split the money.  It would be more than enough to take care of her and you get some money without any money out of pocket. 

I know that this scenario would probably never happen these days, but I think if this was a situation I was in that is what I would do.

Later
Josh

[Mikesmopars01]

Actually that scenario happens all the time, read the Rare Finds in the Mopar magazines.

[Shakey]

Some really good points made here.     Glad we kept it civil.

I was hoping to have some input from the member that inspired me to start this thread.   

I guess flipping is a part of our everyday life. 

Some of the scenarios about little old ladies and hemicudas had me laughing.  I'd still haggle with her, even if she was trying to get a cool $500.00 for it!