indy heads

[68chargerboy]

hi,
   i am planning on buying some new heads for my  440, 500 ci stroker, and was wondering if indy heads are worth the money.  from what i've heard it almost bolts on 80hp over stock.  is this true or should i just go with the eddys.  thanks alot


                Zach

[deputycrawford]

My thought would be to get the standard port EZ heads and the matching dual plane intake. The 295CC intake port heads are for racing mostly. The low end would be soft with the 295 version. The Eddy's are good too. Others on the site here can tell you more.

[Rolling_Thunder]

im in the same boat...     building a 528" stroker and am debating on either the Edelbrock heads or the Indys

[deputycrawford]

Rolling Thunder, I would go with the  Indy's if money is not too much of an object. Ask around about the 295 cc version for such big cubes. The standard port heads would be cool also. I did check with my engine builder (28 years in the business). He says the Eddy's flow pretty good but can't be run out of the box. I think Chryco agrees. Oh, and my engine dude says the Eddy's don't take to welding very well if they need repair. They can be made to run; but are only good once. I hope this helps.

[firefighter3931]

Rolling Thunder, I would go with the  Indy's if money is not too much of an object. Ask around about the 295 cc version for such big cubes. The standard port heads would be cool also. I did check with my engine builder (28 years in the business). He says the Eddy's flow pretty good but can't be run out of the box. I think Chryco agrees. Oh, and my engine dude says the Eddy's don't take to welding very well if they need repair. They can be made to run; but are only good once. I hope this helps.

The indy's are a great head, no doubt...and for a 528ci motor the EZ1's with a 275cc max wedge port would be a better way to go. The downside is that you ned to run the proper MW intake manifold and hood clearance is out the window....it's hood scoop time.

Deputy, i'll have to diagree with your engine builder....eddy's are the closest to being ready to run out of the box than any of the other heads. The valvejob on the e-heads is superior to what indy comes with....ask any machinist who's worked on both. The eddies are repairable and many have been....not sure where that's coming from.  No disrespect to your engine builder but doing engines for 28 years doesn't qualify anyone as an expert in my opinion. I've met many so called builders who didn't have a clue when it came to sorting out a combo. There are a few examples of this right here on the board. Ask Vegas Mike what he thinks about his engine builder...a so called expert. 

Read this :

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,6000.0.html

As for power....the numbers speak for themselves. There are lots of guys running 9's with eddies and makeing well over 600hp and in one case i've seen....over 700hp. The thing i like about the eheads is the efficient small runner design which promotes excellent throttle response at low engine speeds. A street/strip car doesn't spend most of it's time above 4000 rpm....think about it.  A heavy car with street friendly gearing and stall is better served with a high velocity head. 

Andy F has done a bunch of dyno testing with bb combos and recently published an article comparing a head swap between the e-heads and indy's. His results showed that the bigger port indy shifted the powerband up significantly to where it was makeing peak torque over 5000 rpm. That is hardly a streetable engine fo the average guy and illustrates quite well that bigger isn't necessarily better. 

If you're looking for 600hp from a pump gas 493 and a torque curve that's as flat as a pool table....the e-heads with a mild portjob are hard to beat. Everything bolts up and is in the stock location. The ez heads are 3/4in taller on the intake flange and can create hood clearance issues depending on the manifold you decide on. Of course there's allways the hood scoop option....


Ron

[Rolling_Thunder]

hmmmmm     thanks for the info -  This will be a 100% street engine....    I do like my throttle response...      I would put throttle response above peak HP anyday...      Edelbrocks with some porting are the way to go then ?  I knew about the INDY heads needing to use their intake...    which is even more cost sinse we have a load of Edelbrock intake kicking around the shop...     

[firefighter3931]

hmmmmm     thanks for the info -  This will be a 100% street engine....    I do like my throttle response...      I would put throttle response above peak HP anyday...      Edelbrocks with some porting are the way to go then ?  I knew about the INDY heads needing to use their intake...    which is even more cost sinse we have a load of Edelbrock intake kicking around the shop...     

RT, on a 520 cube motor the eddies are a little on the smallish side. I guess it begs the question ; why would you consider building such a large stroker with a factory block ? A 4.15 stroke 493ci motor is waaay more power than most will ever need or be able to use effectively. The bigger (520) motor would make that much more power (torque) over the 493 and be impossible to hook up, if at all.

The other thing to consider is the structural integrity of the factory block....above 625-650hp and you're rolling the dice everytime you hammer down on the pedal. Anyone who's makeing the big power number with a stock block has done a lot of work to try and keep it all together. These types of modifications make the engine unstreetable. Hardblock must be used if there's any hope of keeping a factory block together at the 650+ power level....the problem is that now your block is filled with cement and the engine will overheat if you street drive it.

So this brings us back to what would be considered a reliable power level for a street motor that has a waterjacket full of water (not cement) and won't cook itself in traffic or split in half when you floor it. The 600hp power level is where you want to be, inmo. The eddy heads can reach that power level with some mild porting and a good thought out build....on pump gas and 493 cubes. The smallish port will keep the power down low and you won't have to rev the engine past 6000 to make the number. This in turn makes life easier on the block and all the other parts of the rotating assembly. I think of the e-heads as a safety valve....they keep the power where it's usable and won't allow the engine to destroy itself by making too much hp at too high of an engine speed. Basicly what you get is a torque monster that is shifted at 6k that is reliable and dependable.

This isn't intended to be an Indy bashfest and i hope it isn't taken that way....think of it more along the lines of , "the right head for the right application". The indy's are fantastic heads and i would buy a set myself if i was buildng a race motor or i had an aftermarket block at my disposal (megablock). At that point, a big head with lots of port volume wouldn't be such an issue for street use. A 540 cube pump gas bullit would be a blast to build, and drive on the street..... I would luv to assemble one someday and when that time comes it will be with an Indy head or something that is appropriately sized for the displacement. Till then i'll have to just get by with the Eddy's and be content with 600hp....at least i know it'll stay together and be streetable. 


Ron

[Rolling_Thunder]

hmmmmm      well i have ported and polished 906's on the 383 now...      maybe i should build the 493" instead and just run the Eddy's...     think ill be able to hit 600hp with 10:1 with aluminum heads and a mild cam ? 

[firefighter3931]

maybe i should build the 493" instead and just run the Eddy's...   

That's your call. The e-heads with a mild portjob and a streetable solid cam will hit that mark (600hp).  A static 10.5:1 would be better as long as it's built around a zero deck flattop piston for tight quench. Diamond racing makes an off the shelf piston that is perfect for this pump gas 493 combo.

Ron

[Mefirst]

Just to put in my into this discussion...

My 440 was in no way an exotic build. Off the shelf six-pack bottom end. 10.7:1 in comp. Solid cam with a final lift of 592 with 1.6:1 roller rockers. Unported, right outtaw the box Eddy 84cc heads. Team G intake and to top it off, a 1050cmf Dominator carb...

This combo made 542.5 Hp @ 5900rpm and 555 of TQ @ 4700rpm in a Dyno...

With that power, a more or less stock weight Charger will be a mid 11 second car.. and you can take it out on a 1000mile cruise down the highway, if you have a thick enough wallet to pay for the fuel needed...

Then to the discussion about -How much can a stock block take??? You can add a girdle and aftermarket main caps, this will help to eliminate cap walk, but will it eliminate the problem 100%, that I don't know? With a girdle and aftermarket main caps I do think you could push the max Hp up to 700Hp something. Then again the engine might not be that fun to cruise on the street.. Ive learnt that to achieve 600Hp N/A is quite simple, but when you want to go over 700Hp N/A, then it will get more complicated, and most of al, it will cost a shit load of money...

Also people need to realise that the more power your engine makes, the more time you'll spend in the garage keeping it tuned, so you can drive your ride.. So its more or less, drive 1 houer and spend 2 houers in the garage....

Then again my 440 did not survive more than 4 runs down the track, so also remember, the more power your engine makes, engine failure is always lurking around the corner...

My new engine will most probably be a 496 stroker, with as light as possible internals. Add the girdle and aftermarket main caps. Push the comp as high as possible and still be able to run on pump fuel. Solid cam. Port the Eddys and change out the Team G intake for a Victor.. Hoping to reach some 600+ Hp...

/Tom

[68chargerboy]

so do you guys think a 500 ci stroker from 440 source would be to much for the street.  after what i read from you guys is that the e heads are the way to go.  so my combo is going to be a 500ci stroker, e heads, and a purple shaft cam (adv. duration 292 and lift .509).  also do you think that i should use a larger cam or is this one good.  thanks


                   Zach

[firefighter3931]

Yep, that's a good build....one of our members just built one like it and he's thrilled. The 509 is not the best choice for a cam....there are much better grinds out there. 


Ron

[deputycrawford]

I appologize for my last post then. I'm glad I have the thoughts of many people instead of just listening to one. I will probably use the Eddy's in my next build. I don't want to get away my stock hood.

[Rolling_Thunder]

my boss has run his blown 440 with approx 800hp for over two years on a stock 1969 block...      he drive it hard as well...   

[firefighter3931]

I appologize for my last post then. I'm glad I have the thoughts of many people instead of just listening to one. I will probably use the Eddy's in my next build. I don't want to get away my stock hood.

No need for appologies Deputy, this is afterall a discussion board and brainstorming is helpful in many ways. There are often many different avenues to achieve a desired end result. People tend to feel more comfortable with what they know works for them....in my case it happens to be the E-heads. I've seen them work well in so many different types of builds to completly discount them for allmost any type of build unless it was going to be a 500 cube "race only" deal.

If you honestly believe that the Indy's are a better choice, then i encourge you to go in that direction. The opinions i offer are by no means the final word....


Ron

[deputycrawford]

I want the most power. I thought the Eddy's wouldn't  do it. I know now they are fine in most situations. I will look into them then.

[Mefirst]

I want the most power. I thought the Eddy's wouldn't do it. I know now they are fine in most situations. I will look into them then.

If you want the power go with the CNC ported Indy EZ heads, or if you want more.. Then the 440-SR or 440-1.. These heads will grant you a shit load of HP.. They do cost allot of cash though. Personally I'm a little sceptical about the external oiling system...

Then you have the Bulldog heads... Then again I have not found many who have used that head in their engine builds.. Member Chrycho has used those heads in engine builds, and if I remember correct, he liked the design of the Bulldog heads..

Or you have another option... To wait until the new Edelbrock Victor heads hit the market, but don't buy them until you´ve found more info about how good they really are.. The Victor heads have been discussed several times over at Moparts, and to what I understand they will be a nice contender to the Indy EZ or/and SR heads...

But the bottom line is what you want to achieve with your engine build.. Make a well thought through plan of your engine build, in other words, what kinda power numbers do you want, what will it take to get to those power numbers, am I willing to scarify some streetability and will I be happy with it once its built.. then build it... and most important -Don´t tell your girlfriend/wife about the cost !!!

..and don´t forget to upgrade the chassis/suspension of your ride.. Very important issue to take care of, this so you´ll actually make use of al that "whoop ass" power... Burnouts are cool, but huge burnouts doesn't´t make your car fast.. Getting the tires to hook and make use of the power from the V-shaped dynamo between the front fenders, is what makes your ride haul ass...

/Tom

[68chargerboy]

Yep, that's a good build....one of our members just built one like it and he's thrilled. The 509 is not the best choice for a cam....there are much better grinds out there.


Ron

I was wondering what you think a good cam is for a 66 monaco that weighs 3700-3800 lbs.  i am trying to hit around 11.5.      Thanks




                 Zach

[68chargerboy]

also should i buy the edelbrock victor heads    Thanks


                        Zach

[Chryco Psycho]

I like the design of the Indy EZ head better , it has the better combustion chamber & with stock intake prt not max wedge will take stock intakes & doesn`t external oiling
I set up 1 set of Bulldogs , they worked great , never found the true potential , it dynoed with 310 RWHP on a Must6ang dyno at 3600 ' altitude which is approx 515 HP gross , this was with a "small" 870 Avenger carb & only 2" exhaust , we need to get it back to the dyno with 2 1/2 or 3" exhaust & a larger carb , it should hit 550 hp easily , I believce Bulldog is out of business now though , the EZ is very similar & makes for a great street strip head

[deputycrawford]

I have read that the Edelbrock Victor heads use the off set rockers. I don't want to spend the extra money. The debate continues on over the Eddy's versus the EZ standard port heads.

[firefighter3931]

The EZ head is essentially a max wedge head from a design standpoint. The basic EZ head with the standard port has a large step from the opening to the runner. Indy Choked down the opening so that guys with std port manifolds could bolt them up. From a flow comparison, they are slightly better than an e-head out of the box with a lot more potential when opened up to the max wedge port window. The downside is that even with the small intake opening, the port volume is still quite large compared to an e-head.

The effect of a large port on a smallish engine has been discussed above in this thread. Basicly it boils down to where you want the engine to make power.


Ron

[Rolling_Thunder]

well heads aside - just thought i would throw in some info...      i am possibly getting the Victor 440 EFI intake this week (not available to the public yet) and i just purchased an MSD throttle body today...   should be a nice start to my EFI dream

[Ghoste]

Interesting.  You'll have to keep us updated on that.

[firefighter3931]

well heads aside - just thought i would throw in some info...      i am possibly getting the Victor 440 EFI intake this week (not available to the public yet) and i just purchased an MSD throttle body today...   should be a nice start to my EFI dream

You do realize that the Victor won't clear the stock hood 


Ron

[andyf]

I've dyno tested the standard port EZ heads vs. the Eddy heads.  I ran those tests on my 432 stroker motor (383 with 440 crank).  The standard port EZ heads were a disappointment.  They didn't make any more power peak power than the Eddy heads and the motor made less torque at lower speeds (probably due to the large intake runner).  We pulled the EZ heads off and had them CNC ported.  After being ported to the MW size the motor picked up a ton of power but the torque peak moved up about a 1000 rpm.  So the moral of the story to me is that you need to decide if you're going MW size or not and then go from there.  The big port stuff makes big power but you'll lose some bottom end torque.

The high port Chapman Stage VI heads are probably the best compromise since the have a super high flow small port design.  But they cost a fortune so I've never built a motor with them.  I would have loved to test them on my 432 against the ported EZ heads but I never had the chance.

[Rolling_Thunder]

well heads aside - just thought i would throw in some info...      i am possibly getting the Victor 440 EFI intake this week (not available to the public yet) and i just purchased an MSD throttle body today...   should be a nice start to my EFI dream

You do realize that the Victor won't clear the stock hood 


Ron

I'll deal with that when it gets here...      been looking for an excuse to get a fiberglass hood   

[firefighter3931]

well heads aside - just thought i would throw in some info...      i am possibly getting the Victor 440 EFI intake this week (not available to the public yet) and i just purchased an MSD throttle body today...   should be a nice start to my EFI dream

You do realize that the Victor won't clear the stock hood 


Ron

I'll deal with that when it gets here...      been looking for an excuse to get a fiberglass hood   

Glass hood huh !   

Here's some links:

http://www.glasstek.com/

http://www.vfnfiberglass.com/site.htm



Ron

[deputycrawford]

Firefighter. Thanks for the fiberglass info. I was looking for a hood to put a scoop on. I will never cut up a stock hood. I even put them in my favorites.

[firefighter3931]

Firefighter. Thanks for the fiberglass info. I was looking for a hood to put a scoop on. I will never cut up a stock hood. I even put them in my favorites.

No problemo Dep....Glasteck is number 1 followed by VFN....both are excellent but glasteck gets the nod by a hair. 

Both companies will install the scoop of your chosing for a small fee. The bolt on hoods are what you want, heavier duty with lotsa reiforcement. 


Ron

[deputycrawford]

Cool. I will remember that. Come on over to the chat room.

[firefighter3931]

Come on over to the chat room.

I tried...it ain't working. 


Ron

[deputycrawford]

Oh man, theres five of us in there right now. Oh, well. Hope to see you in there soon.