which rack and pinion set up???

[69Bee]

hey guys i have a 1969 super bee which is close to being finished.   i wanted to do a rack and pinion steering setup with tubular k member.   the car is going to have a 496 stroker with around 650 hp. i was wondering what front end setup you guys would reccomend , i was thinking  maybe reilly motor sports setup or magnum forces?  which is better ? ups and downs of each??? and also any other reccomendations??  thanks in advance!    -Josh

[Blown70]

Some say the Magnum Force is good for stip only.  I think the riley is maybe a better choice,   However your car, U will have to make the final call.


Tom

[andyf]

If you're going to drive it on the street then talk to Bill R. about his Alterkion setup.  I wouldn't use the MF setup on the street since it supports the weight on the inner fender sheetmetal.

[Mike DC]

The Magnum Force kit works, but I agree it seems a lot more suited to a drag-racer than a street car.  Elephant ears, coils resting on the shock towers, etc.

The AlterKtion kit seems like a good design and it's a little more street-ready, but IMHO it's still overkill to some extent.  If you're not building a major G-machine with 35-series tires & 4-piston aluminum calipers, then this K-frame is probably unnessecary.  It still does a lot of its job by limiting suspension travel, taking the cushioning out of the bushings, etc.

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(This comment may derail the thread, but . . . )
Have you thought about just swapping the steering to R/P and leaving the stock K-frame & suspension? 
At least one other member here suggested this on another thread about aftermarket K-frames, and I think I agree.

There's a bolt-in R/P retrofit kit available to do this now.   A R/P steering gear and a decent suspension rebuild with fresh shocks/bars/bushings is not 100% equal to an aftermarket K-frame on the racetrack, that's a given.  But for most street-drivers, it will fix almost everything that people turn to the aftermarket K-frames to accomplish for a lot less money & side effects. 

 

[Rack]

Funny I was about to post this same question sometime in the next few days. I was considering the MF kit, but not after reading this thread.


I'm looking for something that'll last me another 10+ years so I'm guessing a new, modernized IFS would be more what I'm looking for then the one that's already in it.

Or am I way off base with that?

[Mike DC]

I'm looking for something that'll last me another 10+ years so I'm guessing a new, modernized IFS would be more what I'm looking for then the one that's already in it.

The old stock suspension (when properly rebuilt) lasts as long as anything else out there.  Not many people ever drive a restored musclecar enough to need ANOTHER total rebuild of the front suspension anyway.  It took 15-25 years to wear it out the first time.

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Just saying "I want a high-performance suspension" is a risky way to go about it.  It's sorta like going to an engine builder and saying "I just want a high-performance motor"  You'll end up with a very fast motor for sure, but you might also end up with a rough-idling, race-gas-burning beast that's not what you really wanted for a street cruiser.

Some things about "high performance" suspensions are great for a street car just like a race car (like stiffer sway bars & better suspension geometry).  But other things, like stiff-ass wheel springs & solid suspension bushings everywhere . . .that stuff isn't much fun for a street car no matter how much it might help on the track.   

You gotta try to figure out what you really want from the suspension.  Of course, there are conflicting opinions on what is "streetable" and what is "better."  (Some guys insist that their '71 Duster with a rollcage, 4500-stall converter, and 4.56 gears is still "totally streetable" too.  Same principle.) 
Different people prefer different car setups.

[69Bee]

so if i kept the stock k-member, what would be the best upgradeable parts i could do ( shocks, springs, steering, etc...)  i want the car to handle good and steer like a new car, is it possible??? what would you do for a street/ rarely strip car? thanks guys

[Mike DC]

If it was mine, I'd probably do several of the things we've already talked about.  Rack & pinion conversion on the stock K-frame and stiffer aftermarket sway bars on both the front & rear end of the car. 

I'd also add some caster into the front end with either some aftermarket control arms or else just a Moog offset bushing deal.

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"Rubber or Poly bushings?"

This debate never ends.  Personal preference has a lot to do with it.  And there's various makers of polyurethane parts with different qualities.  And some areas of the country have much rougher roads than others, which encourages different setups . . . there's pros and cons both ways.

Stuff I'd keep rubber for sure:
--  Front leaf spring eye bushings.  Rubber here takes harshness out of the ride.
--  Lower control arm bushing at the K-frame.  harshness reduction, and metal fatigue issues on the front suspension.

Sutff that's good for polyurethane:
--  All the front & rear sway bar bushings/links.  Not really any downside to this.  Doesn't affect the car's ride at all.
--  Rear leaf spring shackle bushings, especially the upper bushings where the shackle bolts to the car's frame.  These bushings are so far away from the axle that any lateral "play" is really magnified by the time it gets to the wheels.

 

[SeattleCharger]

 

[Rack]

Mike, you may have just saved me a few grand. I may still get a complete K-Frame conversion kit, depending on the condition of the one I have, but if it's good to go, I'll be keeping it. Plus now I'm on a position to work on it with a bit more confidence... if I screw something up, Oh well, I was gonna get a new one anyway. 


What's the difference between stock steering and the "rack & pinion" steering?

Also, what else, other then replacing bushings, can I do to help "modernize" or improve my suspension?


And while I'm at it - I don't mean to rape your thread, 69Bee - what would I do to change the stance of my charger to give it more of a "Pounce" type of look? You know, the rear end up in the air a bit. Better to lower the front a bit, or raise the rear? A little of both? How do I do that?

[Mike DC]

Recirculating-ball steering box:
It's heavy, it's strong as heck, and it muffles out a lot of the "road feel" from the driver's hands.

Rack & pinion steering:
It's lighter weight and it transfers more "road feel" to the driver.  But it's a bit more fragile than the recirculating ball steering gearbox.

The recirculating-ball gearbox is at the top.  The rack/pinion setup is the longer one at the bottom.


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The original Mopar steering setup (like almost all American cars in the 60s/70s) was a recirculating-ball gearbox.  Big, dumb, strong, and not much road feel.
Almost all modern cars (and some compact pickups) are currently made with the rack/pinion steering.  Lighter weight & more road feel. 
So convert to rack & pinion to make the steering feel "tighter" and more communicative.

The front suspension also could use a little more negative camber in the static position than stock.  Modern radial tires can cope with more camber without wearing badly than the original bias-ply tires did in the 60s.  This can be done with alignment changes and/or different upper control arms.

And as I said above, defintiely add some caster.  Raising the car's "rake" to angle the front end down & the rear end up will take caster out of the car as it is, so you DEFINITELY want more than stock.  Same as the camber, this is either alignment changes and/or aftermarket upper control arms.
 
 

[Rack]

Thanks, Mike.


Great info. I'm learning something new every day here.

[69Bee]

what is Moog?   also what brand parts would be the best, shocks, torsion bars, etc???   i do have a complete poly PST front end kit, is this a good kit???  thanks