Tranny problems

[steves66]

The other day after I got back from a short drive I pulled in the garage and put the trans in neutral and noticed that the car still wanted to move a little. Put the brake on and let the brake off and still wanted to move. Put her in park and it stopped moving. Ok heres the real kicker, I got in it yesterday and fired her up, let it warm up with the trans in neutral, put in reverse backed out of the garage, put in drive and she barely moved, major slipping, also in 2nd and 1st! Reverse is fine, but in drive, 2nd, and 1st she barely moves even when reving it up to about 1800-2000. I don't even have 50 miles on the trans since the rebuild. The trans was rebuilt and a Trans-go shift improver kit was also put in. I have a J&W 3400 stall converter. I also have a Gear Vendors overdrive unit on the car. One more thing, when I drove it this past weekend I kinda got on it a little bit and done about a 10 foot burnout and noticed something strange after I let up it didn't want to shift out of first until I lifted all the way out of the throttle then she shifted up the 2nd then drive. Trans fluid level is full. Any suggestions?

[73-charger-383]

sorry i don't know anything about transmissions.........i thought the topic was something else completly.

[firefighter3931]

Steve, how does the fluid look.....smell bad ? Dark in color ? It might be something as simple as a band adjustment or more complicated (fried clutches, leaking servo etc...).  I'm wondering if it isn't something with the valvebody from what you're decribing because in neutral it should not want to creep forward...

Fwiw.....first gear burnouts are a no-no 

Hopefully John Kunkel will chime in on this.


Ron

[steves66]

Ron, the fluid still has a red tint to it and don't have any smell from what I can tell. The valve body was the first thing that came to mind because of the neutral creeping forward. Automatic transmissions is not my strong point.
By the way what it so bad about first gear burnouts? I may have been guilty of it a time or two.

[firefighter3931]

Automatic transmissions is not my strong point.

By the way what it so bad about first gear burnouts? I may have been guilty of it a time or two.

Tranny's are not a strong point with me either. I really need to learn more about them. Fortunately there's an awesome tranny guy locally that i deal wth so i bring him the busted part and have him fix it. My trans is going in soon for the full boogie performance build. I'm also going to use the turbo action (forward pattern) "prostreet" manual valvebody with low band apply. That's something you should look at as well along with a bolt in sprag (overrunning clutch) and a 4.2 kickdown lever.

First gear burnouts place a tremendous load on the sprag and if it fails you can explode the front drum and take your foot off. The low band apply feature protects the sprag and prevents this from happening. I've never exploded one personally but have seen the aftermath of a few...,kinda scary and not something i want to experience. When the sprag lets go the trans will spin up to twice the engine speed. So if you're turning 6000, the front drum is going 12000 and they usually fail ~ 9000 from what i've read. It's obvious to see that this can be a big problem 


Ron

[mopar1968]

The other day after I got back from a short drive I pulled in the garage and put the trans in neutral and noticed that the car still wanted to move a little. Put the brake on and let the brake off and still wanted to move. Put her in park and it stopped moving. Ok heres the real kicker, I got in it yesterday and fired her up, let it warm up with the trans in neutral, put in reverse backed out of the garage, put in drive and she barely moved, major slipping, also in 2nd and 1st! Reverse is fine, but in drive, 2nd, and 1st she barely moves even when reving it up to about 1800-2000. I don't even have 50 miles on the trans since the rebuild. The trans was rebuilt and a Trans-go shift improver kit was also put in. I have a J&W 3400 stall converter. I also have a Gear Vendors overdrive unit on the car. One more thing, when I drove it this past weekend I kinda got on it a little bit and done about a 10 foot burnout and noticed something strange after I let up it didn't want to shift out of first until I lifted all the way out of the throttle then she shifted up the 2nd then drive. Trans fluid level is full. Any suggestions?

As someone who has just changed out his tranny for the 5th time (TCI Tranny's SUCK!) I can't offer much on the creeping part in neutral but, for the take off part don't you have a 3400rpm stall converter?  Wouldn't that take 3400+ rpm to get the car to move?  Maybe the stall converter is defective?

FYI to all that read this.....Don't buy a TCI Street Fighter 727!!!!!  I would use only John at http://www.coperacingtrans.com/index.htm.  He now does all my tranny needs.  Sorry, I had to vent.......

[John_Kunkel]

The initial problem of driving forward in Neutral is usually caused by a stuck rear clutch, the final problem of slipping in all forward gears points to a failed rear clutch. The rear clutch is used in all forward gears but not Reverse.

It's not uncommon to have the clutch fail shortly after a rebuild when a shift kit is installed, the part that usually fails is the Belleville spring; this spring acts as both the return spring for the clutch and also as the medium between the hydraulic piston and the clutch plates. The line pressure increase brought about by the fresh overhaul and the shift kit can overwhelm the Belleville and cause it to fail.

There are two different style Bellevilles, the early one used prior to '74 is a known weak link and should be replaced by the more robust '74 and later style; updating the Belleville also requires using the matching thicker piston.

Pic below shows the Bellevilles, later style is on the left:

[steves66]

Thanks John, Is there a way to check this to be sure without pulling the trans? I am sure that the trans will have to be pulled to fix if this is the problem, correct?

[John_Kunkel]

You can check the clutch circuit by pulling the valve body and applying air pressure to the passage that leads to the rear clutch, the procedure is outlined in the FSM.

[Just 6T9 CHGR]

John, out of curiosity, do you do rebuilds?

When my trans goes (hopefully not in the near future) I want you to build my new one

Chris

[steves66]

Pulled the pan last night and guess what, a pan full of what looks to be clutch material and sludge! I can't believe this thing let go when I don't even have 50 miles on it!
Anyway going to drop it down and take it to a more respectable trans shop to have it gone through yet again. I just had a basic rebuild the last time with a trans-go shift improver kit. With my enginge specs I will probably need to go with more of a performance rebuild and maybe a different valve body. What do you guys recommend for about a 560 h.p. and about 600 ft.lb. touque engine that will be mostly street driven with some track time?

[firefighter3931]

Geez,Steve....that really bites !    Torqueflights are pretty tough transmissions....that shouldn't have happened had it been built properly !

CRT (cope racing transmissions) sells a line of trannies from mild to wild. Give John a call and see what he recommends. He's a mopar racer and know's his stuff. I've ordered from him in the past and he's great to deal with. 

http://www.coperacingtrans.com/727.htm


Ron

[mopar1968]

Geez,Steve....that really bites !    Torqueflights are pretty tough transmissions....that shouldn't have happened had it been built properly !

CRT (cope racing transmissions) sells a line of trannies from mild to wild. Give John a call and see what he recommends. He's a mopar racer and know's his stuff. I've ordered from him in the past and he's great to deal with. 

http://www.coperacingtrans.com/727.htm


Ron

John rocks!!

[steves66]

Ron theres a Mopar shop here local that only does mopars. Anything that is engine, trans, and rearend related. I have been told that they are the experts. They go by the name Hensleys Racing. I called them to talk about my problem, he also said that shouldn't have happend this soon. For about $600 he said he can go through my trans with the best goodies available including a Cheeta manual or automatic valve body. My first rebuild only cost me $175! He told me that he would have way more than that in parts alone. Which leads me to believe that the first rebuild wasn't much to begin with. What do you think about the $600 price? Another thing is my converter, I hope that junk didn't make it to the converter! If I drain it and look at it real close do you think it would be safe to use?

[firefighter3931]

Hensley is a very reputable shop....i'd have no problems dealing with them !  If your original rebuild only cost $175.00 then i have to wonder what was used for parts. I'd agree with Hensley's on this one....the quality parts alone are worth more than what you paid for your last rebuild. 

The $600.00 price sounds like a very fair price for a performance built tranny. I've been quoted around the same locally for similar work. If you plan to make some track passes with the car it might be worthwhile to look at a low band apply valvebody. A bolt in sprag and 4.2 kickdown lever are also welcome additions to the package. The turbo action prostreet VB is available in forward and reverse patterns depending on your preferance. The prostreet valvebodies are full manual, if that is a consideration : no more automatic shifts or kickdown linkage. I went with the forward pattern for mine, fwiw.

The converter should at least be flushed out....the shop can do that for you. 

The stroker is making some big power now so it needs a beefed up tranny behind it....no way around it. Heavy duty steels & clutches are required to keep it durable and reliable. I'm sure Hensley's can fix you right up !   


Ron


Ps. Really sorry to hear this happened....guess the Copper Bandit won't be making it to Carlisle 

[steves66]

I have heard of nothing but good things about Hensleys and they are located about 15 miles from where I work. When I was talking to them on the phone I could tell in his voice that he knew I got the 'ol shaft, but being the respectable shop that they are he held back his comments about the other shop that rebuilt my tranny the first time around. Too bad the trans was already built before I found out about Hensleys. I gave him my engine specs so he could give me a ball park quote on what I would need and he said for the power I was making I would definatly need to go with some kind of aftermarket valve body and upgrade the clutches, steels and a few other goodies.
No it don't look like the beast will be making it to Carlisle this year. You know the old saying, "You get what you pay for!" I'm trying to keep a good attitude about the whole situation, but it's hard!

[Rocky]

sorry i don't know anything about transmissions.........i thought the topic was something else completly.

I always giggle to myself whenever this subject pops up.

[steves66]

sorry i don't know anything about transmissions.........i thought the topic was something else completly.

I always giggle to myself whenever this subject pops up.

Yeah I'm giggling too.

[firefighter3931]

No it don't look like the beast will be making it to Carlisle this year. You know the old saying, "You get what you pay for!" I'm trying to keep a good attitude about the whole situation, but it's hard!

That's too bad, i was looking forward to seeing the car. Are you still coming Steve ? I'll bring the 

Good attitude, stay positive and things will work out. You're really only out $175.00 for the crapola rebuild and now you'll have piece of mind when the hammer gets dropped. 


Ron

[steves66]

I don't know if I will be coming now or not. I guess I had better be deciding though.
The $175 don't bother me as bad as pulling that big S.O.B out again!

[firefighter3931]

The $175 don't bother me as bad as pulling that big S.O.B out again!

I hear ya....been there, done that....too many times ! 

Hope ya decide to come anyway....should be a great time ! 


Ron